jrosa

Hi folks,

I'm seriously considering buying a piggyback tuning and I was thinking about either the RaceChip Ultimate Connect or the VR Tuned ECU Tuning Box Kit.

Does anyone have any advice about them? Which one would you get?

darmawaa

Kleemann and Brabus is the best piggyback for mercedes

subzero05

I would lean toward the racechip unit. I had used their product on a previous MB and was happy with it. the VR is vivid racing and they are outsourcing tuning from overseas it appears.

jrosa

I was analyzing Kleemann as well, but RaceChip and VR were posting (at least claiming) best numbers. So I narrowed my options to those two.

RaceChip has the Connect feature, which I considered a real plus.

sturte30

In for comments on RaceChip. I know the BMW crowd has been having good success with it.

TTMerc

Id go with RaceChip 100%. I wouldn't get the Connect though but that is just my opinion. The Ultimate has adjust-ability which is very nice depending on mods etc. The Ultimate also isn't VIN Specific the Ultimate Connect I believe is. I've had first hand experience with their product and for the money cant be beat! I track tested it with my cls550 before I got an actual flash and picked up about 5-6 mph and at least .5 sec off my time. Throttle response is also improved. I ordered and received 2 days later. Customer service is also readily available in the US. Let me know if you have any other questions about the Racechip tuner.

TTMerc

Hell I might just order another for my current car!


Edit: Did'nt think about it before but being an S model the flash doesn't pick up as much power off a flash. I wonder if the RaceChip Numbers are close to tuned. Actually after thinking about it I'm going to order mine today. I'll report back! Thanks Jrosa!

sturte30

Looks like it is on sale at the moment too:
https://www.racechip-usa.com/chiptun...3-AMG-S-430kw/

Astolfo

can you explain why?

sturte30

I don't think it reads the VIN. I downloaded the app just to see what the interface is like and it looks like it only requires you to scan or enter the bar code (serial #) off the RaceChip unit it self.

jrosa

I ordered the RaceChip TB Ultimate Connect. Price was great and I will give it a try. Kleemann has a great reputation and I was tempted to buy it, but the price difference between RaceChip and Kleemann K-Box is huge! In addition, RaceChip has the bluetooth connection with the iPhone, which is really a plus.

sturte30

can't wait to hear your thoughts! Bonus points for before and after dynos 😉

10speed

Wow I'm really interested in this , I can't wait to hear your review !
I love that you can remove it !
Are you going to install it yourself?
I also like that it has an app to work on the iPhone
If it packs that much punch then the price is fantastic!

TTMerc

Yeah sure, just personal preference. I like to tinker with things so the more adjust ability the better. It may make no difference at all in power and maybe it will. On my last unit it had two dials. You could adjust between different power levels also the way the power was brought in. If something wasn't working smoothly I could adjust it to work smoothly. With the App you have to wait for them to send you an update (Im guessing change the parameters that can be adjusted with the dials) then try and do that until it did work smoothly. The App can be downloaded by anyone but needs a "key" to link to the unit at which point I think it does pair with that vin. To change the vin to use for another car you would have to pay them to reflash and unlock. This may have changed since then. Either way the product Ultimate with or without connect functions the same so I know it will produce great results from my experience.

10speed

How do you think this compares to a Renntech tune , can you give me pros and cons ? Thanks!

TTMerc

I can't because I have never had experience with a Renntech tune.

quandary

Just a heads up to anyone considering this that MB can detect the changes made by these boxes. I was under the assumption the tuning boxes were 'safer' from a warranty standpoint but that is not the case - if MB wants to dig, they can detect it.

TMC M5

Technically there are no changes... MB might be able to detect some irregularities in the logs, but if you pull the piggyback off they would have no tangible evidence. You could say you were traveling up in the mountains in high altitude where the engine would compensate the same way and have no idea why the sensors are doing what they are doing. That is different than playing dumb as to why the ECU has holes drilled in it. I am not condoning warranty fraud...but when car manufacturers illegally circumvent US Federal law and void a warranty without proving it was the aftermarket part/tune...they get what they deserve.

Astolfo

I beg to disagree, every time MB does a diagnostic they will have all the logs. These logs include TX/RX voltage, resistance, DB loss, power consumption, data rates and latency for every link and computer in the car. They will even know the amperage drawn by the cigarette lighter or USB port, even if the cable you used to connect your USB device is cheap or not by detecting ground loops.

These logs are so comprehensive and the diagnostic so automated that if a single conductor in the wiring harness or a fiber gets pinched the diagnostic will report it.


They will even know if you have driven the car harder than usual, if the cars has been run hard when cold, atmospheric metrics and believe it or not if you plugged in an obdii data logger.

PID = Performance Information Data correct?


As for tangible data, they have the data. If you go to court any first year electrical engineer will have to come to the same conclusion, component X is supposed to have these values, at this time in this circuit these values are out of spec.


Are you willing to commit perjury and take the risk of joining Mr. Winterkorn?

TMC M5

Do you know how long the computer keeps the logs cycle-wise?

But my point is, the logs would show a discrepancy, but there will be no physical evidence. Their first thought might be faulty sensors and not a definitive condemnation that there was a tune. They are only going to start digging if there is catastrophic engine damage. As opposed to doing a software diagnostic scan or physical inspection of the ECU...and then declaring your powertrain warranty null and void...even before a warranty incident. That is the type of BS a piggyback tune avoids.

Astolfo

The point I am trying to make is that they do not have to dig at all, it is right there for them to see, right there in summary pages in the diagnostics computer.

As for how long, it is hard to tell since for non personal data, data points get aggregated at given intervals if all the parameters are within specs; as soon as a parameter falls out of spec, data points are not aggregated and data collection cycles get increased accordingly. In theory if nothing goes wrong they could have months (more than 6-7) of logs on some components if driven about 3 hours a day 6 days a week depending on the hours the car is driven. If I recall correctly the GT family has 32GiB of dedicated NVMe for data login.


Believe what you want if you think a "tuner" can fool a car manufacturer engineer I have an ice cube to sell you


A simple question to you, if MB knows that at X position of the throttle the engine is supposed to be intaking X amount of fuel and air, delivering Y power, Z torque, sending T number of fuel and voltage pulses a millisecond, how would you explain if all these parameters are out of scope and now the engine is delivering X+n, Z+m, T+o?


It is like making a $100 and depositing $200 in your bank, and then when you are getting divorced telling your wife/girlfriend/accountant/IRS I only made $100. How long will it take them to call your.

TMC M5

I hear what you are saying, but MB will not be jumping to the conclusion that a tune is on the car because they are not going to do anything with the data. MB is not looking to spend money if the car is working and the customer is not complaining. It is only when there is catastrophic damage that they would go back and try to make sense of the data.

But even then, it would be hard for them to prove anything. Think about if you didn't have any tune on the car. And sensors are reading and logging data that is outside the normal parameters...an anomaly. Do you think MB is going to put the burden of proof on someone to prove the car wasn't tuned? They would need more than circumstantial evidence.

I had piggyback on my Audi S4 and Audi USA is notorious for doing the TD1 death sentence to powertrain warranties preemptively by automatically hooking it up to a diagnostic machine. I am sure they have the same capabilities as the Mercedes to log information. I never had any powertrian issues and took into Audi to service a few times. They did not flag the car, even though most people with Audi ECU tunes were automatically flagged.

TMC M5

[QUOTE=Astolfo;7057758]The point I am trying to make is that they do not have to dig at all, it is right there for them to see, right there in summary pages in the diagnostics computer.

As for how long, it is hard to tell since for non personal data, data points get aggregated at given intervals if all the parameters are within specs; as soon as a parameter falls out of spec, data points are not aggregated and data collection cycles get increased accordingly. In theory if nothing goes wrong they could have months (more than 6-7) of logs on some components if driven about 3 hours a day 6 days a week depending on the hours the car is driven. If I recall correctly the GT family has 32GiB of dedicated NVMe for data login.


Believe what you want if you think a "tuner" can fool a car manufacturer engineer I have an ice cube to sell you


A simple question to you, if MB knows that at X position of the throttle the engine is supposed to be intaking X amount of fuel and air, delivering Y power, Z torque, sending T number of fuel and voltage pulses a millisecond, how would you explain if all these parameters are out of scope and now the engine is delivering X+n, Z+m, T+o?


It is like making a $100 and depositing $200 in your bank, and then when you are getting divorced telling your wife/girlfriend/accountant/IRS I only made $100. How long will it take them to call your.[/QUOTE

Not a great analogy... since sensors are fallible...

Astolfo

[QUOTE=TMC M5;7057776]

Really all sensors at the same time, all parameters have a near perfect correlation?


What is it,


A) that a Audi/Porsche/MB/etc does not know
or
B) Audi/Porsche/MB/etc choses not to act on the information they have.


If you claim A you are wrong, period.


You are entitled to your opinion but not to your own facts. Furthermore telling people that MB (choose your brand) can't know, is misleading at best and it shows the lack of honesty or knowledge (again choose your own poison) the person or company has.


Not my problem anyways, just like with the MCT adaptation I am trying to share my knowledge. But then what do I know.

TMC M5

[QUOTE=Astolfo;7057784]Only a Sith speaks in absolutes. And I don't appreciate the straw man argument tactics.

Seeing how most of these simple piggybacks use just MAP sensors and maybe a camshaft sensor to read RPMs...it only takes "bad" MAP sensors to set all these parameters off. That is a FACT since that is EXACTLY how the piggyback works.

I never said they "can't know" (please show me where I said that), I said there is only circumstantial evidence and they may not be able to have the definitive proof that a physically tampered ECU, or a bad check sum, or any other residual that actual software was overwritten. So that, coupled with the fact that it would take additional data analysis and maybe doing actual due diligence (like maybe testing all the potential sensors first) for them to void the warranty. That is why I said it makes the piggyback less apt to get flagged. That is a practical answer based on fact and common sense.

But yes, with enough time and enough reason to properly analyze the data, they could build a case that a car had a piggyback on it. But that would be an extreme and usual case, unlike the aforementioned ways an ECU tune provides evidence.