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This is for those that are interested in watermeth injection for the m157 e63. I have a dyno chart that shows clear improvement in my choice of location. I've tried pre intercooler injection that had minimal gain and left some puddling, while not bad I'm just not a fan of it. Post intercooler is clearly a great location, but not easy to install on our engines, way to many parts have to be removed for a proper installation. I was always a fan of pre turbo injection from past experiences and knew this motor is a perfect candidate. I have my nozzle mounted way up in the intake boxes using a ratio of 90/10 gives me a perfect atomization before it hits the turbo blades any meth that happens to build completely flashes off due to the 90/10 ratio. Again 50/50 isn't a good mix for pre turbo 100%meth is best . I'm using small tips. Alcohol injection number 2 which are 215ml . Tank is a 3gallon tank mounted in the trunk where the spare tire once was. The hardest part of this install was running the power and meth lines under the car. Which I used a empty slot next to the brake lines, so it has a nice factor
NEW INFO ALERTS. Please read PAGE3. For updated installs, which includes slight changes in nozzle location, materials, nozzle size/aka cc amount, and the power that should be seen. I figured I'd leave this old post up so people can see how it's progressed over the years and how the same general location is still working with even better results
Bye I have it boost activated at 10psi the vacuum the turbo creates sucks the mist right into the inlet pipes without it touching the filters. It's been 1 month and there's no signs of the filters being affected. The reason I didn't run in lower towards the pipes where because I didn't want it bouncing right of the pipe walls and running down. So I went a couple inches further up . Honestly I don't think it would be a problem being mounted right before the black couplers as long as 100% meth is used.
The green graph is when I injected the meth earlier, activated at 5psi, it shows substantial gain right away, unfortunately that run was cut short because the car moved to the side on the dyno and he let off. The blue lines is my first run with no meth injection at all.. the light green is my second run with the meth onn and activated at 10psi. It shows when the turbo blades slow slightly but pick up after and yields me more power at the end
The benefits sound amazing but super risky. Imagine not needing the IC and piping the turbo directly into the throttle body!
1. Pre-Turbocharger/Centrifugal Injection
By placing the water methanol injection nozzle or nozzles pre-turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger and injecting a fine precise amount of water methanol into the air inlet of the compressor can have a dramatic positive effect on compressor efficiency (particularly with turbocharger systems and high boost centrifugal applications) while substantially lowering discharge temperatures at the source of compression. On 8-25 psi applications, users can expect to see a 70-160+ degree drop in compressor discharge temperatures. While reductions of 160-240+degree's can be had on 25-60+ psi high boost applications such as diesels.
How is this possible?
When water methanol is first injected, we're able to begin slightly cooling the incoming air entering the compressor. This air is already relatively cool in relation to the ambient temperature of the day as it has yet to be compressed and heated. Depending on the temperature of the day and how the air inlet is plumped and where the air is being drawn in from, the incoming air entering into the inlet of the compressor commonly ranges between 5-20 degree's above ambient. Only minor cooling of the air charge occurs at this stage before it enters into the compressor. More importantly, we are about to dramatically cool the air that is being compressed and heated within the turbocharger.
It's important to understand it is here that the heat is being generated.
A turbochargers impeller can spin at an astonishing speed between 100,000- 150,000 rpms. While centrifugal supercharger impellers spin between 40,000-65,000+ rpm. Between each pair of blades on an impeller exists a wedge shaped open space which the air fills in. As the impeller is spinning, this wedge shaped air pocket is subjected to tremendous centrifugal forces and is forced outward away from the center of the impeller to the outer edges. It is here where the air begins to stack up and compress against the compressor housing forming the heat as it makes it way into the scroll.
As the compressed air heats up, it tries to further expand, making it now more difficult for the heated compressed air to pass through and exit the compressor thereby lowering the compressor efficiency. In addition, this compressed air is taking up more space within the compressor limiting new incoming air from being processed. Furthermore, the hot compressed air exiting the turbocharger is less dense as it has been heated significantly. Therefore, containing less power producing oxygen while making the engine considerably more prone to detonation.
By cooling the air as it's being compressed within the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger, the compressed air is now substantially cooler, more dense, taking less space and moves more efficiently through the compressor allowing us to pack and process more air through the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger. This leads us to our second benefit. Improved compressor efficiency.
All of this results in improved compressor efficiency. Because of this improved efficiency the compressor does not have to work as hard to produce the same amount of boost as without the water methanol injection. In turn it raises the maximum mass air flow of the compressor. Thereby, making a smaller turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger now perform like a larger turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger with the addition of the water methanol injection.
Lastly, as already mentioned above, pre-compressor injection substantially lowers the discharge temperatures exiting the compressor. The engine is now less prone to detonation through this reduction in air charge temperatures. Furthermore, the use of an intercooler is dramatically reduced and in some applications no longer needed as it may not offer substantial further cooling effects in return for the pressure drop caused by it. Removal of the intercooler could now offer a further increase in boost pressure at the engine as well as compressor efficiency.
While all of this sounds very exciting. To do this properly requires proper sizing of the nozzles in relation to the compressor size and output. Additionally, the type fluid being used also effects the size of the water injection nozzle selected. When done properly, very little of the water methanol mist injected into the inlet of the compressor survives the process. Thereby, discharging a much cooler air charge with a relativity high humidity with very little or no water methanol droplets present.
When injecting water, we can quickly over saturate the air charge and have an excess of fluid discharging the compressor. Water has a much higher latent heat of vaporization, nearly double that of methanol, and does not flash (instantly evaporate) like that of methanol or other alcohols when injected into a hot air stream. Therefore, a smaller nozzle must be used when spraying pure water.
A better choice for pre-compressor injection is a greater concentration of methanol vs. water or pure methanol. Methanol instantly flashes (evaporating) as soon as it enters into a hot compressor and meets the heat within it. By using an alcohol, this dramatically reduces the amount of actual fluid exiting the compressor due to it‘s fast evaporation. Additionally, methanol offers much greater cooling effect then water. Furthermore, methanol is also less dense then water thereby having a softer impact on the impeller. The specific gravity of pure methanol is .792 @ 68° F compared to water which is 1.00 @ 64° F.
One major concern associated with pre-compressor injection is erosion of the impeller. This is only likely to occur when injecting solid stream of water at the impeller of a turbocharger or using an excessively large nozzle. Impeller erosion is highly unlikely with centrifugal supercharger as they spin at a considerably slower speed then turbochargers. Impeller erosion is of little concern with centrifugal superchargers.
While pre-intercooler injection may at first seem like a logical approach. Thereby, combining the effects of water methanol injection within the air-to-air intercooler for an increased synergistic effect. It is not so. Matter of fact, it's the opposite. The cooling effects and benefits offered by the water methanol injection are less when injected here then in all other locations. Further, more other issues arise such as puddling which can form in the bottom of the intercooler. Additionally, pour atomization will occur as the fluid will accumulate in the individual air to air intercooler core walls of the intercooler forming larger droplets which will eventually break away resulting in pour atomization. We do not recommend pre-intercooler injection. http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...re-intercooler
Great write-up, but I would like to add a few points.
I have run water and water / meth setups on a number of cars and if you are seeing improvements in power (without changing the tune), then this is an indication the ECU is retarding timing due to IATs.
For real power gains, you would be able to increase timing and boost (given that you now have cooler charges and if using Meth in the mix a higher effective octane rating). This is what BMW did with the GTS4.
Great write-up, but I would like to add a few points.
I have run water and water / meth setups on a number of cars and if you are seeing improvements in power (without changing the tune), then this is an indication the ECU is retarding timing due to IATs.
For real power gains, you would be able to increase timing and boost (given that you now have cooler charges and if using Meth in the mix a higher effective octane rating). This is what BMW did with the GTS4.
Agreed you can definitely get more power out of it by adjusting timing accordingly but now you are tuned for meth. And if your pump fails during wot or a nylon hose crimps, or if the nozzle clogs you run a huge chance of detonation and running into huge issues. On a car that only sees the track that’s definitely a go. But an every day driver where you don’t have time to check lines hoses and pump function every time you jump in the car, not sure if tuning for it is a good idea. I personally use mine simply to keep things cool.
Agreed you can definitely get more power out of it by adjusting timing accordingly but now you are tuned for meth. And if your pump fails during wot or a nylon hose crimps, or if the nozzle clogs you run a huge chance of detonation and running into huge issues. On a car that only sees the track that’s definitely a go. But an every day driver where you don’t have time to check lines hoses and pump function every time you jump in the car, not sure if tuning for it is a good idea. I personally use mine simply to keep things cool.
Agreed. That said there are great failsafes that you can incorporate to kill boost if TPS > 50% & Boost > X lbs & AFR is > 13.5, such that you would never have a scenario of running in the danger zone.
Where is the IAT sensor on the w157 motor ? Wouldn't you want to spray the meth before the sensor, so the ECU has the correct IAT information? TIA
I’m not tuned for it. So fooling the sensors is not what I was looking for. But I think it’s after the intercooler before the TB but I’m not positive. So I think it’s still fooling it slightly. Remember I’m pre turbo injection. I’m trying to keep the turbo cooler and more efficient
I’m not tuned for it. So fooling the sensors is not what I was looking for. But I think it’s after the intercooler before the TB but I’m not positive. So I think it’s still fooling it slightly. Remember I’m pre turbo injection. I’m trying to keep the turbo cooler and more efficient
Sorry, tuned for it and cooling the air before the IAT are two different things. If you are sparing after the IAT, then the ECU will pulling timing. Since you are spraying in front of the turbos, you are spraying in front of the sensor, the meth will cool the charged air and thus the ECU should be less likely to pull timing. I'm going to have to do a lot of research on this platform .....Was hoping others had fully explored and I could just follow .
The f10 m5 guys have really been taking advantage of more flexible tuning solutions and meth and the results look great. Hopefully we can see similar / better gains (given the bigger motors).
Ok, so the charge air temperature sensor "IAT" is located on the rear of the intercooler housing just upstream of the throttle body. Specifically on the lower passenger side.
Hey all. Wanted to update this post as this platform and meth injection has taken off big time. The M157 platform responds insanely well ti methanol. Since my original post we have drastically moved up in meth nozzle sizes , now injecting upwards of 800cc per turbo . In addition to this, we are now adding a 3rd nozzle to the upper rear area of the intake manifold . Where we are injecting upwards of 800cc and more depending if you have added 2 nozzles in this location where you can successfully spray 2 nozzles at 800cc each. The setup that gets the absolute best results are pre turbo, a nozzle on each tube prior to the compressor blade and one nozzle at the back top of the intake manifold. Using 700-800 cc pre turbo and 700-800 cc intake manifold for a combined amount that varies depending on your nozzle choices from 1500cc to 2200cc . The intake temp can read the cooler air from the pre turbo injection but can’t read the meth from the intake manifold location. So I came up with a way to relocate the intake air temp sensor to a new location the sits right under the ecu on the manifold between the fuel rails and the engine harness . You don’t need to cut and spice the harness, as the stock wire can be relocated because it’s long enough to reach. This will now allow the ecu to adjust timing more accurate and allow for a true reading of intake air temps right before the air enters the intake chamber. What I did was make a quick example of what can be used and how. You can choose to modify it ti which ever way you feels works best for you or even better then my quick mock up. But this location has to be used because it sits in a perfect spot where the air splits to each runner. This adapter/bung I’m using actually shield’s 90% of the sensor from being soaked which even if it did would be ok but just for that extra added security I decided to use a bung that surrounds and protects the sensor still allowing it to read the air accurately. As of now pro meth injection has been the go to company for our kits using braided lines only!! Reach out to Rodney at pro meth for any additional info. If you are doing a dual nozzle setup with plans to add a 3rd nozzle use the 115 pump, as long as your not spraying more then 1800cc of pure meth. At this level of injection if you want to spray over 2000cc of pure methanol I’d advice you to purchase the 190 pump upgrade. . This setup along with the Black boost intake kit with not tune will yield you anywhere from 50-80hp. The meth alone if the setup above is followed with 1300 cc and up will help you pick up 1.5-2 mph trap speed and around 40-50hp more with no tune to adjust for the new meth. Even more if you do tune for it. . All the top amg cars are using this setup .it works bottom line.
What will have to be done is drill the manifold to slide this bung in. You will be able to suck out and debris that fall in, the area where this is being done has a flat bottom so you don’t have to be worried about things falling down inside the intake . You can use a small vacuum hose to suck up what falls down . Use an an industrial adhesive/epoxy . Give it 24 hr to cure. You won’t have any leaks or boost loss. This epoxy/adhesive works perfectly. But you can use any epoxy/ adhesive as long as it’s industrial strength
Are there nozzles in the top circled part, with injection happening somewhere up there?
No, thats just the plumbing up top. I ran the main line to the rear. All you see there is the “T” split for the front nozzles. Having that T junction there though does facilitate my third nozzle in manifold coming soon.
btw, Bill, in case unaware, this is Alpha63. One and the same.
Hello! Awesome treatise on WMI for the M157! Thank you for that information. I have a 2014 E550 and will install the intake tube nozzles per your direction. Questions:
1 - I can’t tell from your pictures where the intake manifold nozzle goes (does it require a lot of disassembly to reach the location)
2- where did you tap for boost signal for Hobbs switch or injection controller? I have seen a kit which raises the MAP up to provide location for a block with a nipple on it,but I’m not a fan of messing with the dynamics of the MAP signal — it is too important!
Thank you again for awesome info!
Bill
Originally Posted by Vrodman
No, thats just the plumbing up top. I ran the main line to the rear. All you see there is the “T” split for the front nozzles. Having that T junction there though does facilitate my third nozzle in manifold coming soon.
btw, Bill, in case unaware, this is Alpha63. One and the same.
Just showing Pro Meth 5.4 gallon tank fits in the wheel well location if you are willing to make light customizations. It would have been better for tank lid to be positioned on the right side as it seems the spare well opening is slightly deeper compared to the left. Thus, an opening in the trunk’s floor is needed for it to sits flush with the tank when closed.
Hey all. Wanted to update this post as this platform and meth injection has taken off big time. The M157 platform responds insanely well ti methanol. Since my original post we have drastically moved up in meth nozzle sizes , now injecting upwards of 800cc per turbo . In addition to this, we are now adding a 3rd nozzle to the upper rear area of the intake manifold . Where we are injecting upwards of 800cc and more depending if you have added 2 nozzles in this location where you can successfully spray 2 nozzles at 800cc each. The setup that gets the absolute best results are pre turbo, a nozzle on each tube prior to the compressor blade and one nozzle at the back top of the intake manifold. Using 700-800 cc pre turbo and 700-800 cc intake manifold for a combined amount that varies depending on your nozzle choices from 1500cc to 2200cc . The intake temp can read the cooler air from the pre turbo injection but can’t read the meth from the intake manifold location. So I came up with a way to relocate the intake air temp sensor to a new location the sits right under the ecu on the manifold between the fuel rails and the engine harness . You don’t need to cut and spice the harness, as the stock wire can be relocated because it’s long enough to reach. This will now allow the ecu to adjust timing more accurate and allow for a true reading of intake air temps right before the air enters the intake chamber. What I did was make a quick example of what can be used and how. You can choose to modify it ti which ever way you feels works best for you or even better then my quick mock up. But this location has to be used because it sits in a perfect spot where the air splits to each runner. This adapter/bung I’m using actually shield’s 90% of the sensor from being soaked which even if it did would be ok but just for that extra added security I decided to use a bung that surrounds and protects the sensor still allowing it to read the air accurately. As of now pro meth injection has been the go to company for our kits using braided lines only!! Reach out to Rodney at pro meth for any additional info. If you are doing a dual nozzle setup with plans to add a 3rd nozzle use the 115 pump, as long as your not spraying more then 1800cc of pure meth. At this level of injection if you want to spray over 2000cc of pure methanol I’d advice you to purchase the 190 pump upgrade. . This setup along with the Black boost intake kit with not tune will yield you anywhere from 50-80hp. The meth alone if the setup above is followed with 1300 cc and up will help you pick up 1.5-2 mph trap speed and around 40-50hp more with no tune to adjust for the new meth. Even more if you do tune for it. . All the top amg cars are using this setup .it works bottom line.
Just wondering if there are any updates on your rear nozzle install? I’m wanting to do a setup like yours (pre turbo nozzles with Blackboost intake, which that part seems simple enough), but the rear mounted nozzle I can find very little info or even pictures about. I managed to find a video on YouTube and there is a quick clip where an installer mentions the M157 engine with a picture and you can sort of see two small nozzles mounted at the rear (see screenshot pics ) but I guess I’m wondering like everybody else will the complete intake need to be removed from the engine for this or is it just a matter of drilling and tapping holes for the nozzles in the plastic? Of course I guess there is concern about debris falling into the intake, perhaps you can give us an update if you have had this done to yours.
09-28-2017, 12:11 AM
.....Was hoping others had fully explored and I could just follow 
.
