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sure... its an aggressive tune that requires that Race Gas (over 98 octane) be used (or a 93octane/E85 blend) when running the tune.
running lower grade gas may cause engine knock.
As I mentioned in the post above we are still testing the tuning waters. We are looking into making the "Race Tune" auto switching to allow for various grades of fuel to be run and have the tunes maps adjust for it. We are not there yet. That would be the best of both worlds. Run the much more aggressive Race Maps when high octane is detected, then switch to the more docile street tune when running 93 octane.
When I say "we", I'm referring to Jerry at EC. We are both busy in our respective lives but my hope is to keep tweaking my tune and offering up my car a a beta to further these goals.
Here's the latest dyno plot of my "Race Only" tune. It is not the most aggressive tune as you'll note from the torque, but look at that top end power! Also note the boost rating. Making this power with lower boost helps with EGT's and all the issues elevated temps bring with it.
Race vs Stage 1 vs Stock tune
Those boost readings can't be right. 12.6psi is the stage1 tune, and 17.5psi is the race tune? Edit: I saw that the stock E63s was 14.5psi? Eurocharged Stage2 tune is normally 22psi, although I think that's to get the huge torque numbers.
Last edited by billvp218; Jul 23, 2019 at 01:38 AM.
Those boost readings can't be right. 12.6psi is the stage1 tune, and 17.5psi is the race tune? Shouldn't stock with the E63s be around 20psi? Eurocharged Stage2 tune is normally 22psi, although I think that's to get the huge torque numbers.
What does this mean? Do you believe that Eurocharged decided to lower boost from factory levels for their stage1 tune?
Originally Posted by cij911
I believe the boost numbers shown above are at redline ....
The boost numbers shown match the peak of the graphs, which also notes they are at 5140 & 5220 rpm. Something is off, perhaps it is whatever is shown as "relative" that is messing everything up. Maybe it wasn't zeroed in correctly.
Last edited by billvp218; Jul 23, 2019 at 01:37 AM.
^^ Peak boost is much earlier and the numbers you are referencing are at 5K + rpm.
Some tuners slam a ton of boost in the lower RPMs and create a huge tq spike (looks great on the dyno), but can create heat issues on the street and does nothing for top end power. That said, even the redline boost numbers seem small. I have no idea what the efficiency range of these small turbos is like, but I know I have been able to hold a lot more boost at redline with other platforms. E.g. the f10 m5 crowd are spiking at ~20 - 22psi on pump gas and holding strong to redline. (I just read a few m5 threads with guys running 6 - 7 sec 60-130 - wow...)
Hopefully Brutus comes back on and confirms boost data.
Stock E63S boost is quoted at 14.5psi. The EC tunes previously had these massive torque numbers down low based on these 22 psi boost requests. The tune I am running is at 18.5psi max. Depending on the dyno run I show, I've seen as little as 17 psi max boost. Its variable. I guess it comes down to the variability of each dyno run and the boost demand the ECU asks for on a particular run. I'm not sure.
Having said that, CIJ911 nailed it on the head, regarding torque and potential heat issues.
I started down this path because I didn't want to risk my clutch and transmission with this massive torque hit. Heat also kills these cars, resulting in timing pull (and power, higher in the rpm range).
I asked Jerry to make a milder tune for me that didn't call for as much torque down low. I come from the VW/Porsche world and I didn't like how the power seemed to drop off in the higher rpm's when compared to my previous cars.
I asked him to come up with a tune that allowed the ECU more time to "adapt".
Jerry worked his secret sauce and after multiple dyno runs we ended up with a tune that gave me the top end performance I wanted without the added heat generated by excess boost down low. We noticed that the power we were making was consistent, without the drop off in power we saw previously. To my eye's, it appeared the ECU was "happier" in how it made power. I can't explain it any better.
The max boost I've seen on the dyno is now around 18.5psi. Less boost means means lower EGT's. The engine seems much more comfortable in the higher RPM's, as evidenced by the power curve up top of the rev range. The car no longer seems to drop off in power. The end result? 128mph trap speeds in race tune.
As I said earlier, there's more in these cars. Now that we're coming at the tune from a different angle I'm excited to see where Jerry takes it. I know for a fact we've probably got a couple more degrees of timing to play with with the Race Tune.
Hopefully Jerry can come up with a variable tune that allows for more aggressive octane switching, giving me my "stage 1" 93 octane performance for daily, and my "race tune" <98 octane performance when running the good stuff.
Now, before people run off claiming they want this new tune, understand this.... because I make less torque out of the hole, if we were doing a side by side launch, the 22 psi guys would get the jump. I'd only come around you on the top end. I'd be playing catch up all the way down the quarter. It would make for a fun run no doubt. Where this tune shines is on the highway. My 60-130 shows this.
I hope this helps without further confusing matters.
I've gone back and read some of the additional comments around boost.
I don't have an answer. It may be how the boost was logged on the run. I agree that 12 psi is not correct.
I can tell you that the tune I am running right now, per Jerry, calls for 17.5 psi in Street Tune, and 18.5 psi in Race Tune. Stock is 14.5psi. The additional horsepower is coming from a combination of timing advance and additional boost, not just gobs of boost solely. I've logged boost via ODB2 on the street, but a boost gauge would be ideal. My numbers all typically fall in the 17 psi range when I'm fully committed.
I always struggle with dyno plots when viewed as absolute. We know there is variability between all dynos. The proof for me is in the quarter mile trap and 60-130 times compared to my previous best efforts.
So if this particular race tune is based on a 98 octane or 93/e85 blend. What are the specs on the ms-109 race tune they have . What is the the timing set at and what boost levels.. currently I’m on a newer map that s holding 16 degrees timing and less boost then my stage 2 but my quarter mile times are still the same. 11.4 11.5 @123- 124 it’s a 93 tune only but I am supposed to receive the ms-109 tune shortly
I am looking at the dyno of base vs. EC 1 vs Race and honestly I would want a lot more power in the lower RPM over the stock tune. 90%+ of the time, I will be using the car as a daily driver and doing short 0-60 blasts or freeway 0 - 100 blasts, having instant tq response down low makes for a great street car. I'm curious what the 0-60 and 0-100 times are like with the EC1 tune vs stock - that is what is most important to me, (as well as transient response).
What is the EC2 tune?
Full disclosure - I just pulled the trigger on an EC tune yesterday. I have enjoyed working with Jerry / EC in the past and my e55 (which he tuned) has 166K miles on it and still running like a champ.
I am looking at the dyno of base vs. EC 1 vs Race and honestly I would want a lot more power in the lower RPM over the stock tune. 90%+ of the time, I will be using the car as a daily driver and doing short 0-60 blasts or freeway 0 - 100 blasts, having instant tq response down low makes for a great street car. I'm curious what the 0-60 and 0-100 times are like with the EC1 tune vs stock - that is what is most important to me, (as well as transient response).
What is the EC2 tune?
Full disclosure - I just pulled the trigger on an EC tune yesterday. I have enjoyed working with Jerry / EC in the past and my e55 (which he tuned) has 166K miles on it and still running like a champ.
Agreed id want good tq down low as your 60 foot is very important but also street driving is a blast. Also for someone who’s catless with downpipes I can’t see the turbos dying out with a little more psi. I’m thinking 19.5 psi that way it’s not maxed at 22 but still effective.
These cars, specifically the 4matic’s, have a real diminished return with tq and boost, since the tcu wont let you run all the tq the engine COULD be making. And by the time the tcu nannies let go in 3rd gear, the tq isnt really needed anymore. IMHO, i wouldn't run anymore then 19.5 psi on 93 octane, anything more is a bit agressive for pump IMHO.. its all tq and no HP above that boost anyways and esp since our small turbos cant keep up at higher rpms, the boost dropoff i see is tremendous sometimes.
Originally Posted by cij911
^^ Peak boost is much earlier and the numbers you are referencing are at 5K + rpm.
Some tuners slam a ton of boost in the lower RPMs and create a huge tq spike (looks great on the dyno), but can create heat issues on the street and does nothing for top end power. That said, even the redline boost numbers seem small. I have no idea what the efficiency range of these small turbos is like, but I know I have been able to hold a lot more boost at redline with other platforms. E.g. the f10 m5 crowd are spiking at ~20 - 22psi on pump gas and holding strong to redline. (I just read a few m5 threads with guys running 6 - 7 sec 60-130 - wow...)
Hopefully Brutus comes back on and confirms boost data.
Im pretty familiar with the S63tu engine since was a long time M5 owner and my brother owns one now.
22psi is aggressive for pump gas, and usually where the dct clutch starts to slip. I wouldnt want to be at that level for long. My brothers car is set to about 19psi now on his normal pump gas 93 octane map, which car seems happy at, and less fear of bending rods.
The S63tu is a more aggressive motor in terms of sharpness and free revving.
Also has a better charge cooling system, but that comes with the complexity of having 1 mechanical water pump and 4 electric water pumps with 2 intercoolers + the plumbing.. so its a maintenance headache when things go south.
Plus its getting pretty common to bend rods on those motors with a lil boost. Alot more often then you might hear about anything around here, alot more.
Originally Posted by brutus_tx
I've gone back and read some of the additional comments around boost.
I don't have an answer. It may be how the boost was logged on the run. I agree that 12 psi is not correct.
I can tell you that the tune I am running right now, per Jerry, calls for 17.5 psi in Street Tune, and 18.5 psi in Race Tune. Stock is 14.5psi. The additional horsepower is coming from a combination of timing advance and additional boost, not just gobs of boost solely. I've logged boost via ODB2 on the street, but a boost gauge would be ideal. My numbers all typically fall in the 17 psi range when I'm fully committed.
I always struggle with dyno plots when viewed as absolute. We know there is variability between all dynos. The proof for me is in the quarter mile trap and 60-130 times compared to my previous best efforts.
14+ S models runs 14.5 psi max.
Majority of the time, you wont ever be at this boost level (14.5) or reach it.
Our boost control is via boost by load which takes many things into account to set boost. Keeping it simple, whatever psi that is needed to hit load target, is what will be called upon.. also why you will see less max boost in the winter in these cars then in the summer, because it takes less boost to hit a target load in the winter because of the dense air then it does in the summer where you would need more boost.
Just for reference, Renntech 93 octane tune runs a max of 18 to 18.5psi.
Originally Posted by Cifdig
So if this particular race tune is based on a 98 octane or 93/e85 blend. What are the specs on the ms-109 race tune they have . What is the the timing set at and what boost levels.. currently I’m on a newer map that s holding 16 degrees timing and less boost then my stage 2 but my quarter mile times are still the same. 11.4 11.5 @123- 124 it’s a 93 tune only but I am supposed to receive the ms-109 tune shortly
16 degrees timing at full throttle through the whole rev range?. What are you using to log?
Originally Posted by cij911
I am looking at the dyno of base vs. EC 1 vs Race and honestly I would want a lot more power in the lower RPM over the stock tune. 90%+ of the time, I will be using the car as a daily driver and doing short 0-60 blasts or freeway 0 - 100 blasts, having instant tq response down low makes for a great street car. I'm curious what the 0-60 and 0-100 times are like with the EC1 tune vs stock - that is what is most important to me, (as well as transient response).
What is the EC2 tune?
Full disclosure - I just pulled the trigger on an EC tune yesterday. I have enjoyed working with Jerry / EC in the past and my e55 (which he tuned) has 166K miles on it and still running like a champ.
Congrats, hope you get to datalog prior to your new tune. LMK if you need any advice or help.
For clarity, you can't have HP without Torque. Horsepower = (torque x rpm)/5252. Higher torque that remains constant or increases in the RPM range equals more HP. Carry on.
5Soko - I will be using MPV12 / HP Tuners & Dragy to log performance. I will post a bunch of before and after information. I don't plan on changing the downpipes or removing catalytic converters. Thanks for your help!
Peter
I have the VBOX, but finding the time to misbehave, and more importantly a place to safely do it is difficult for me.
I have the VBOX in the glove box and if the opportunity presents itself I'll use it.
Unfortunately my car is stock.
One interesting thing we found out recently... the VBOX will not work within AMG's equipped with the sound deadening glass... it blocks the GPS signal.
At our last outing I placed it in a friends Renntech tuned/HF Catted 2018 E63S to no avail... it wouldn't work.
That sucked too, because he ran an 11.1 at 123 against a friends 11.0 at 126 Huracan.
What is going on at Houston Raceway Parks??? A tuned and decatted W213 ran 123mph traps
some quick runs I did today. This is on my 20x10 with extreme contisport. Definitely some tire spin. Working on my brake boosting. Going to put on my stock forged 19” and lower tire pressure.
Stock E63S boost is quoted at 14.5psi. The EC tunes previously had these massive torque numbers down low based on these 22 psi boost requests. The tune I am running is at 18.5psi max. Depending on the dyno run I show, I've seen as little as 17 psi max boost. Its variable. I guess it comes down to the variability of each dyno run and the boost demand the ECU asks for on a particular run. I'm not sure.
Having said that, CIJ911 nailed it on the head, regarding torque and potential heat issues.
I started down this path because I didn't want to risk my clutch and transmission with this massive torque hit. Heat also kills these cars, resulting in timing pull (and power, higher in the rpm range).
I asked Jerry to make a milder tune for me that didn't call for as much torque down low. I come from the VW/Porsche world and I didn't like how the power seemed to drop off in the higher rpm's when compared to my previous cars.
I asked him to come up with a tune that allowed the ECU more time to "adapt".
Jerry worked his secret sauce and after multiple dyno runs we ended up with a tune that gave me the top end performance I wanted without the added heat generated by excess boost down low. We noticed that the power we were making was consistent, without the drop off in power we saw previously. To my eye's, it appeared the ECU was "happier" in how it made power. I can't explain it any better.
The max boost I've seen on the dyno is now around 18.5psi. Less boost means means lower EGT's. The engine seems much more comfortable in the higher RPM's, as evidenced by the power curve up top of the rev range. The car no longer seems to drop off in power. The end result? 128mph trap speeds in race tune.
As I said earlier, there's more in these cars. Now that we're coming at the tune from a different angle I'm excited to see where Jerry takes it. I know for a fact we've probably got a couple more degrees of timing to play with with the Race Tune.
Hopefully Jerry can come up with a variable tune that allows for more aggressive octane switching, giving me my "stage 1" 93 octane performance for daily, and my "race tune" <98 octane performance when running the good stuff.
Now, before people run off claiming they want this new tune, understand this.... because I make less torque out of the hole, if we were doing a side by side launch, the 22 psi guys would get the jump. I'd only come around you on the top end. I'd be playing catch up all the way down the quarter. It would make for a fun run no doubt. Where this tune shines is on the highway. My 60-130 shows this.
I hope this helps without further confusing matters.
Brutus - really great info on your custom EC tune which and thanks for sharing... I just reread much of this and its quite interesting what Jerry has done with your tune adjustments with limiting the boost at the low end and delivering more consistent power up top.......curious if any other tuners (AMS, Renntech, Weistech etc) that have had m157 tunes out for years now have explored this out as a alternative which seems to have benefts compared to the typical high low end boost/torque approach they all do..
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