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You'll notice my trap speed hasn't changed that much (within 1.5 mph) with or without methanol being sprayed. I'm also only running 2 x 250cc nozzles.
My clutch is fine... it feels like fuel cut occasionally between 2nd and 3rd under WOT... I chalk that up to torque management.
I'll try using manual mode for one pass to see what it does at some point. This requires timing coordination that I sometimes lack...
I'm just a little leery of disabling traction control after a friend kissed the wall at Royal Purple Raceway after disabling traction control in his C63... 50K later, he won't be doing that again...
Mine lurches between 2nd and 3rd and it's stock. Dealer has been trying to replicate it for a while now LOL. "Just go WOT a lot you will feel it". But they never do. I never thought of fuel cut but that's a great description - when it does it makes my head nod forward; it's very pronounced.
[QUOTE=brutus_tx;7861531]You'll notice my trap speed hasn't changed that much (within 1.5 mph) with or without methanol being sprayed. I'm also only running 2 x 250cc nozzles.
My clutch is fine... it feels like fuel cut occasionally between 2nd and 3rd under WOT... I chalk that up to torque management.
I'll try using manual mode for one pass to see what it does at some point. This requires timing coordination that I sometimes lack...
I'm just a little leery of disabling traction control after a friend kissed the wall at Royal Purple Raceway after disabling traction control in his C63... 50K later, he won't be doing that again...[/QUOT
Its traction control. What your describing is exactly what I thought. As soon as it hit 3rd gear it double jerk like power cut then back on immediately, I though it was fuel cut, happened after I would do a couple runs back to back and theytq felt brutal. I didn’t lose traction at all it just stopped the car from what it was doing.
If you shift too late you will hit the rev limiter before they the shift is executed. If you pulled the upshift paddle twice (1st gear, 2nd gear) without waiting long enough between the paddle pulls, the second paddle input will not be registered. That's one reason I might do the first gear shift a bit sooner to give me more time to do the second gear shift. Amazingly easy to mess up and second gear either pulling the paddle too early or too late. Once you're in 3rd gear it gets easier because the RPMs Are Climbing slower.
You'll notice my trap speed hasn't changed that much (within 1.5 mph) with or without methanol being sprayed. I'm also only running 2 x 250cc nozzles.
Its traction control. What your describing is exactly what I thought. As soon as it hit 3rd gear it double jerk like power cut then back on immediately, I though it was fuel cut, happened after I would do a couple runs back to back and theytq felt brutal. I didn’t lose traction at all it just stopped the car from what it was doing.
Oh baby thank you for this. I guess if I turn traction control off I can hit the wall or go faster?
Great info and work in here... Only missing a good datalog at the track to see exactly whats going on with timing, boost, iats, load, etc.. Would really bring a great deal of value. something like HP tuners datalogger.
Great info and work in here... Only missing a good datalog at the track to see exactly whats going on with timing, boost, iats, load, etc.. Would really bring a great deal of value. something like HP tuners datalogger.
Definitely. I've been thinking about buying one to be honest.
i can can get better times with brake boosting but I’m trying to preserve my motor mounts this time around and not completely rip my front drive shaft like I did 2 weeks ago.i
Can you elaborate on this? Not sure how many miles are on your E63 but have you actually destroyed motor mounts and a front driveshaft during 1/4 mile runs? Those sound like fairly big $$ ticket repairs.
Great info and work in here... Only missing a good datalog at the track to see exactly whats going on with timing, boost, iats, load, etc.. Would really bring a great deal of value. something like HP tuners datalogger.
i have access to a friends HP tuner dongle, but not the software. I may have to purchase my own software and register it by the looks of things...
Two 1/4mile runs, logged with HP tuners. 1 run, methanol did not flow properly. IAT climbed during the run. Short-term fuel trims did not change significantly because ECU did not need to compensate for added fuel. Air fuel ratio ~0.8 lambda.
Other run, 2000cc/min straight methanol injected post intercooler. Dual 1000cc nozzles set to max out at 15psi, on 25psi tune. Short term fuel trims -20% during injection, between 0% and +5% at idle. Air fuel ratio ~0.8 lambda.
Even adding 2000cc/min meth injection, ECU kept the air fuel ratio identical. It did not run rich. Same tune both runs.
2000cc/min methanol at >15 psi methanol nozzle blocked
Can you elaborate on this? Not sure how many miles are on your E63 but have you actually destroyed motor mounts and a front driveshaft during 1/4 mile runs? Those sound like fairly big $$ ticket repairs.
Motor mounts on a tuned m157 will last 15k if you drive hard. If you brake tq and track that much quicker. Our mounts sucks period. Atleast from a performance durability stand point. I’ve owned this particular one for 3 years, and have been tuned 3 years. The front drive shaft joint ripped. I replaced everything myself so it wasn’t expensive. but for someone that can’t its expensive. But considering how hard I drive it, I’m surprised it lasted that long. The tq on our cars will win over time
I'm picking up a HPTuner dongle and PC from a friend on Friday. The local AMG Social club are hitting the royal purple raceway Friday evening.
Hopefully I get a bunch of passes in to log the runs.
I'm hoping at some point I can replicate the hesitation between 2nd and 3rd. If it's a torque management issue maybe we can raise the limits when running sport plus.
While its not the best time to try and achieve a new personal best in the quarter mile, it's the absolute best time to try and beat on a car to identify any problem areas in a tune as it relates to heat.
I have been very fortunate to have access to a beta tune from Jerry at Eurocharged that I have been messing with.
Jerry refers to it at the "E60 tune".
It allows me to run the tune with anything in the tank from a full tank of 93 to a blend of E85 and 93 achieving an equivalent E60 blend... 60% ethanol per volume.
The things I've noticed....
on cold start the rpms are a little higher (~1100 rpm's) until it goes through the start up sequence, then it drops to ~680 rpms.
zero issues with heat soak and the intake temps are still within a 30 degree delta with ambient temps
the EGT's typically are around 900 to 1100. At max boost and sustained load the most I saw was 1400 with Cats in place. This was my biggest concern to be honest.
Zero issues with drive-ability
Never once did the car go into limp mode.
The injector duty cycle saw a max demand of 90% load at E60. It was less when running E20 or E40 in the tank. The fuels pump seem to handle the extra demand.
The car uses less boost to make the power now... under 18psi at max load was the worst I saw... As temps get cooler then demand will be even less.
overall the car is running a little cooler with the higher ethanol blend
I've done a few 1/4 passes and logged the draggy runs. They've all been in +90 degree temps.
I've had anywhere from E20 to E60 blend in the tank. I'm currently running E20.
For the run below I was at the maximum concentration of E85 to 93 octane allowed by the tune, E60.
Using the George Belton E85 calculator I used the following ratio of E85 to 93 Octane...
Based on a 21 gallon tank, I used 14 gallons of E85 mixed with 7 gallons of 93 octane (2:1 ratio) to achieve an equivalent of 101 octane gas in the tank with a 60% concentration of ethanol, hence E60.
The beta tune I am running has been modified to recognize the different ethanol content and use the correct map. Do not try running these levels of ethanol with a typical tune.
What did this tank of fuel cost me to beat my race gas tune? 14 gallons of E85 at $2/gallon and 7 gallons of 93 at $3.50/gallon for a combined total of ~ $52.50 per tank versus $210.00 per tank of race gas.
I also was able to roll up to my local HEB gas station 3 miles away and select both 93 and E85 from the same pump versus having to drive to my local speed shop 25 miles away...
My car is a good test bed for Jerry's tunes for a number of reasons, but the primary reason is that the car is essentially stock with the addition of a Weistec Water Meth injection kit. We did not tune for the water meth, I only use it to lower intake temps here in Houston where it gets stupid hot and humid. The tunes I run do not rely on the Water Meth as we disable it when on the dyno. The car has stock fuel pumps, stock intercoolers and stock intakes, as well as the stock exhaust and Cats, though I have removed the rear mufflers for a little extra growl. Any increase in performance can be attributed to the tune, not supporting hardware. I also added water wetter to the intercooler water for increased heat wicking.
The results?
A new personal best on a Thursday afternoon at 3:00 pm on September 12th in 94 degree temperatures and a DA of 2366 feet!
11.15 @ 128.98 mph is pretty damn good, and in spite of a 1.8 60 ft. This even beats my previous race tune when I was running 104 race gas at $10.00/gallon.
The car pulls and pulls, without the power falling off in the higher rpm's like some tunes I've experienced previously.
Here's the 60-130 from that run as proof of power being made up top.... once again a new record for me and all without the need for additional supporting hardware, i.e air filters or down pipes etc..
We still have to put the car on the rollers to see how it looks, but the real world results tell me everything I need to know. The trap speed tells me the car is making stupid power.
Once we get the car back on the rollers when Jerry is back I will update this thread with a new graph.
Until then I'll continue to drive around in sport plus and manual mode with a stupid *** grin on my face.
I'm confident that when cooler temps roll around I'll be able to say I have a 10 second car.
Come on Fall!
94 Degree! WOW! I bet your're waiting on cooler temps....with a snarled grin on your face! Nice numbers
The same
exact thing was happening to me. But when I did brake boosting with traction off it didn’t happen. So I tried something to see if it was traction control slightly kicking in and it was. In race start as soon as you take off hold the traction button down so that traction is off completely and it stopped jerking from 2-3. Actually got a better time doing that .
suspenion soft
race start
turn off traction as soon as you launch..
i can can get better times with brake boosting but I’m trying to preserve my motor mounts this time around and not completely rip my front drive shaft like I did 2 weeks ago. Still on my 20x10 wheels with tire pressure at
40psi. Next week I’ll try again with stock wheels and tire pressure at 30psi
I was going to ask what your set ups were. Good Thread! Thanks for the info.
Still a little fuzzy on the Octane mixture you run. I run a non-ethanol 93 octane with a shot VP Octane booster......at the track.
Honestly octane booster never sat well with me. There is a confusing in how they say it raises octane by 10 points. When they say 10 points they don’t mean from 93-103. They mean 93.1- 93.2- 93.3. Etc so 10 points would put you at around 94 octane. Atleast that’s what I’ve been gathering maybe I’m wrong but I honestly haven’t really did a study on it. I’d prefer to put true race gas as supposed to guessing. I run either ms-109. Sunoco gt260 out the pump. Or vp c12 mixed in with ms109. That last mixture was the most brutal shifts and tq I’ve ever felt the car have.
I'm picking up a HPTuner dongle and PC from a friend on Friday. The local AMG Social club are hitting the royal purple raceway Friday evening.
Hopefully I get a bunch of passes in to log the runs.
I'm hoping at some point I can replicate the hesitation between 2nd and 3rd. If it's a torque management issue maybe we can raise the limits when running sport plus.
That is awesome! Let me know if you need any help or advice how to get it started and setup, please dont hesitate to DM for my email or # directly if you have any questions at the track... Small learning curve with the software, i would hook it up to the car and check all the parameters that are useful and save your parameter setup so its ready for track day.
Im sure you have it all figured out.
Things i like to datalog off the top of my head on my M157 as standard:
-RPM
-Boost pressure (You will have multiple selection parameters for this, and all give close to the same values to each other. I use 'Intake manifold absolute pressure sae')
You can adjust values to any form you like for pressure, of course PSI being the one we all use..This will also be ABSOLUTE PSI form that is measured. So subtract 14.7psi which is atomspheric pressure from your #'s here to get the more usable GAUGE PSI we all accustomed to.
-Oil temps
-Coolant temps
-IAT's
-Timing advance (cylinder 1 only option)
-Turbo wastegate DC
-Throttle position ( Again there will been numerous throttle values to select, all are close in values to eachother choose any that you like )
-Lambda Fuel trim bank 1 and 2
-STFT and LTFT for both bank 1 and 2
-Fuel rail pressure ( this should be in the 2900psi range at full throttle.. Big pressures here)
You can look through the software and see what other values you would like to use aswell, i also use Knock Retard cyl 1-8 parameters at times aswell..
Will be fun to see and also see what your wastegate, timing and boost is doing during the shift.
Originally Posted by Cifdig
Honestly octane booster never sat well with me. There is a confusing in how they say it raises octane by 10 points. When they say 10 points they don’t mean from 93-103. They mean 93.1- 93.2- 93.3. Etc so 10 points would put you at around 94 octane. Atleast that’s what I’ve been gathering maybe I’m wrong but I honestly haven’t really did a study on it. I’d prefer to put true race gas as supposed to guessing. I run either ms-109. Sunoco gt260 out the pump. Or vp c12 mixed in with ms109. That last mixture was the most brutal shifts and tq I’ve ever felt the car have.
Yup, that is accurate, i believe 10 points is equal to 1 octane increase! Many people look past.. Ms109 should be the only thing in these motors, depending on the tune, some tuners are running very aggressive boost and boost curves with aggressive timing, i would only use high quality fuel like MS109 to keep things safe.
Can you elaborate on this? Not sure how many miles are on your E63 but have you actually destroyed motor mounts and a front driveshaft during 1/4 mile runs? Those sound like fairly big $$ ticket repairs.
My front axle got destroyed after 1/4 mile run.........
That is awesome! Let me know if you need any help or advice how to get it started and setup, please dont hesitate to DM for my email or # directly if you have any questions at the track... Small learning curve with the software, i would hook it up to the car and check all the parameters that are useful and save your parameter setup so its ready for track day.
Im sure you have it all figured out.
Things i like to datalog off the top of my head on my M157 as standard:
-RPM
-Boost pressure (You will have multiple selection parameters for this, and all give close to the same values to each other. I use 'Intake manifold absolute pressure sae')
You can adjust values to any form you like for pressure, of course PSI being the one we all use..This will also be ABSOLUTE PSI form that is measured. So subtract 14.7psi which is atomspheric pressure from your #'s here to get the more usable GAUGE PSI we all accustomed to.
-Oil temps
-Coolant temps
-IAT's
-Timing advance (cylinder 1 only option)
-Turbo wastegate DC
-Throttle position ( Again there will been numerous throttle values to select, all are close in values to eachother choose any that you like )
-Lambda Fuel trim bank 1 and 2
-STFT and LTFT for both bank 1 and 2
-Fuel rail pressure ( this should be in the 2900psi range at full throttle.. Big pressures here)
You can look through the software and see what other values you would like to use aswell, i also use Knock Retard cyl 1-8 parameters at times aswell..
Will be fun to see and also see what your wastegate, timing and boost is doing during the shift.
Yup, that is accurate, i believe 10 points is equal to 1 octane increase! Many people look past.. Ms109 should be the only thing in these motors, depending on the tune, some tuners are running very aggressive boost and boost curves with aggressive timing, i would only use high quality fuel like MS109 to keep things safe.
Agreed. C12 is 108 octane leaded. Ms-109 is 103. For 4 gallons of ms-109 I mix in 2 gallons of c12 which brings me too 105 octane. Only for the days I know I’m running really hard but never under 103 octane. With my race tune atleast.. I’m looking into hp tuner as well. Gonna order it tomorrow
That is awesome! Let me know if you need any help or advice how to get it started and setup, please don't hesitate to DM for my email or # directly if you have any questions at the track... Small learning curve with the software, i would hook it up to the car and check all the parameters that are useful and save your parameter setup so its ready for track day.
I'm sure you have it all figured out.
Things i like to datalog off the top of my head on my M157 as standard:
-RPM
-Boost pressure (You will have multiple selection parameters for this, and all give close to the same values to each other. I use 'Intake manifold absolute pressure sae')
You can adjust values to any form you like for pressure, of course PSI being the one we all use..This will also be ABSOLUTE PSI form that is measured. So subtract 14.7psi which is atomspheric pressure from your #'s here to get the more usable GAUGE PSI we all accustomed to.
-Oil temps
-Coolant temps
-IAT's
-Timing advance (cylinder 1 only option)
-Turbo wastegate DC
-Throttle position ( Again there will been numerous throttle values to select, all are close in values to eachother choose any that you like )
-Lambda Fuel trim bank 1 and 2
-STFT and LTFT for both bank 1 and 2
-Fuel rail pressure ( this should be in the 2900psi range at full throttle.. Big pressures here)
You can look through the software and see what other values you would like to use as well, i also use Knock Retard cyl 1-8 parameters at times as well..
Will be fun to see and also see what your wastegate, timing and boost is doing during the shift.
I'm not sure I've got it all figured out, but I like to be systematic in my approach... lol.
I will DM you and share contact details..
The track opens at 7pm tomorrow night... it will still be warm so I'm not expecting new records for me, but I'm hoping for a treasure trove of data to mull over.
Thanks for taking the time to type all this by the way!
I will be looking to this as a go-by for tomorrow once I get the PC and dongle.
The intent is to run a 1/2 tank of E60, with traction control off, and brake boosting.
For giggles I may try launch control as well to see the difference.
Its MOPAR night so I'm hopeful I get to embarrass some kitties...
Loving this! Loving it A LOT. So much so that I couldn't wait to get into the beta testing too... Tuned yesterday, E60 mix this morning. Need to get more miles on it to adapt to fuel (Jerry said about 20), but enjoying that fresh tune feel for now! Also I have turbo back downpipes and high flow cats which have that lovely decat exhaust smell.. side benefit here that the smell is much different/more mild with E60 vs pump 93. Will be using that as a selling point for my wife on all my E85 mods now ha!
Loving this! Loving it A LOT. So much so that I couldn't wait to get into the beta testing too... Tuned yesterday, E60 mix this morning. Need to get more miles on it to adapt to fuel (Jerry said about 20), but enjoying that fresh tune feel for now! Also I have turbo back downpipes and high flow cats which have that lovely decat exhaust smell.. side benefit here that the smell is much different/more mild with E60 vs pump 93. Will be using that as a selling point for my wife on all my E85 mods now ha!
Don't you just love the top end on the highway now? The car feels so much more responsive and even partial throttle around town the car feels more composed. I know that's subjective but the tune does make a noticeable improvement. I'm keen to hear your comments.
09-23-2019, 04:36 PM
