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thank you for letting me know that my Torque app isnt broken and neither is my car. i could never get about 7 or 8 psi of boost to show on the app when i would hammer it from a dead stop. i never stayed in much into 2nd as i thought 1st gear should show me what i needed. now, thanks to you, i know why it was reading so low. i really really appreciate it!!!
TQ app is a bit off in general in its values it provides imho, i tried it once and if you want something more offical and on point, i recommend the HP tuners scanner/datalogger.
For a proper log, and i will be making a thread on this soon, traction needs to be fully off as to not contaminate the datalogs from throttle closures and such from traction control kicking in, you want at a minimum to use 3rd gear, or ideally 4th gear, start at about 2500RPM, manual mode, Throttle full, all the way to redline. This will get you a full health check at every rpm to redline.
Originally Posted by e65
In 1st gear, accel position is 100% even before the start of the run, probably the launch control Throttle position sensor 85.9% until 49mph, then it blips down briefly.
MAP maxed 34 PSI at 28mph. dips down then back up to 36psi at 43 mph. Then it fluctuates from 32-37psi until 130mph. After 130mph, i.e.5th gear, MAP is rock steady at 37psi. TCU is tuned. See updated screenshot
This car is a bad boy Asim! Running alot of power here.
I analyzed the log this evening and the TCU tune is doing exactly its job as i talked about earlier in the thread, it has removed the trans tq limiters and the engine is throwing everything it has out like we expect it should, in every gear. No boost limits in lower gears and no throttle closures. 22PSI in first gear, and no throttle closure.. I can see a bit of trans slip in the first to second gear it seems, But you are making alot of power on that upgraded engine and turbos, so that is to be expected with the tcu tune. Your atmospheric pressure according to your log is 13.5, so that should be subtracted from your HP tuners boost pressure value. This will get you gauge PSI like we are all accustomed to. Good clean log, esp impressive in those 120F outside temps! TCU looks great aswell! I will email you with the full breadown as i see it.
Here is a graphed layout of your datalog...Green line being throttle pedal, blue line boost, and pink line being throttle body.
Can see boost is not limited and throttle only closes for shifts, stays open fully otherwise.
This would be the first time this forum has datalogs showing tcu tunes and non tcu tunes in action on a datalog.
Originally Posted by kponti
All this sounds like the tuned M157 and M177 are equal. W212 is lighter than the W213 so W213 makes more power to match the W212 tune vs tune
The only difference is stock vs stock
Hard to say, the M177 (LS2 in the E63) makes good amount of top end power and boost, so its power band up top in most tuned cases is better then that of the M157 tuned on the stock snails. Plus the trans tq limiters out the factory on the 9-MCT isnt agressive like on our 7-MCT. Gives the M177 an advantage in lower gears.
Originally Posted by brutus_tx
Car is so close to tens tonight.
Another new personal best.
I was so close to 10's on so many runs it was maddening.
The great thing is I make over 20 passes and I've got logs for all of them.
Not once did the car fuel cut on me tonight.
There were a couple of times where I could feel the throttle restrict between gear changes, but for the most part they were all solid runs.
It safe to say the tune is great. Getting a 129 trap on stock turbos is almost unheard off. It's a testament to the power the car makes up top now.
Jerry has one heck of a tune on his hands.
I'll be looking at all the logs tomorrow. I'll post some of them up.
No worries. I was going to post a response anyway.
I'm new to the AMG world, coming from VW, Audi and Porsche. I'm not new to the aftermarket however.
I started over a year ago on my quest for more power with a stage 2 tune from EC here in Houston. Within a week I had experienced Limp Mode on the highway after a particularly aggressive pull well into "take me to jail" speeds.
I reached back out to the salesman who sold me the tune. To be honest I wasn't happy with the response at the time.
I was informed that because I was stock I would need downpipes to resolve the issue. I wasn't prepared to do that so I pulled the tune, got a partial refund and reverted back to stock.
I languished with a stock tune for 4 months.
I'm a subsea engineer and we build equipment to very high specs. I know the safety factors built in to all the equipment we manufacture.
Any car company receiving TUV certification in Germany is adhering to the same engineering best practices.
During those 4 months I started looking at the Tunes on the market and they all showed gobs of torque down low, with power dropping off up top. I wasn't happy with that. It seems like they were all clamoring for market share by posting the most torque numbers.
I get it, I truely do. But the reality of these cars is that all that torque doesn't buy you much out of the hole.
All the research I did on the car showed how intrusive the TCU tune was in the lower gears, regardless of what you had done to your car.
The TCU didn't care if you had a Big Turbo or not... its wasn't going to let you play in the lower gears regardless.
Around this time I was talking to my friends in the local AMG Social Club and was told to "Talk to Jerry".
A friend brokered a meeting and we scheduled a dyno session to try and get me a tune I could be happy with, all while retaining the stock hardware.
I met Jerry the day of the dyno session and we discussed my background, the car's configuration, and what I wanted in a tune. I told him I wanted to retard torque in the lower RPM's and rely on timing advance in the higher RPM's to make power.
I wanted a tune that didn't fall on itself in the higher RPM's.
We started a session that amassed over 20 pulls.
At the time I was looking for a 93 octane tune that could adapt to race gas with lower torque down low.
I'll never forget the look on Jerry's face after the first few initial pulls off a new base map. It was like someone had given him the "golden ticket"
We ended up with a tune that didn't fall on its face power wise, and actually continued to make power all the way to redline. This was something new.
I took it to the track and gained an immediate 0.5 seconds improvement in the quarter mile, to an 11.5 but also improved my trap to 125 mph.
The car was happy, I was happy.
The tune stayed like that for a few months, but I knew there was much more in it, and as I became more comfortable with the car I started having discussions with Jerry again about a "Race Only" tune for the track where we could raise the timing etc to utilize Race Gas.
I had two ECU's so I was going to put the "Brett Morry" tune on one ECU, and the "Race Only Tune" on the second ECU. We were going to do this the following week.
I left EC Houston with half a tank of 104 and the Race Only Tune and set a new personal best of 11.2 in the quarter. I was happy with everything except the price of the gas in that tank... lol.
Back at EC Houston the following week and we start discussing the MyGenius handheld. This was a great idea, as I could now load my Stage 1 tune and my Race tune on the same handheld and then upload to the ECU when required.
I purchased the Handheld and we loaded my stock OEM file, my Stage 1 file and my Race Only File onto the handheld.
Around that time I was talking to my friends about the cost of race gas, and one of my friends told me he had been running E30 in his car for over a year with no detrimental effect.
I discussed this with Jerry and the beginnings of the E60 tune where formulated.
This brings us to present day where I ran a E60 file last week and discovered fuel delivery issues (my pump may be getting old - I'm at 82000 miles). I sent Jerry the files... he did his magic and voila, last Friday night I set yet another new personal best of 11.0@129 mph.
This time running a E50 file for added security.
Where do we go from here?
I need to get back on the dyno asap to see if there is any more headroom available to get me that coveted 10.9 time slip, all while safely operating within the AMG performance envelop.
If I can trap 130 then that'll be awesome as well. All this at under 18psi max boost!
Remember, my car is running all stock hardware, including the Cats and passes emissions with flying colors. I'm even running OEM filters and stock plugs at stock gap.
People who tell you you need to buy additional hardware only want to sell additional hardware.
These cars are over engineered to exactly specifications. If you can find a tune that makes the performance with stock hardware, you've got a good tune.
This tune is almost completed now, with maybe one more tweak to go.
The next step is the TCU tune... If we can find someone who can help us raise the torque limits in 1st and 2nd, then I think I will have a true 10 second car on my hands.... and all due to a tune only.
Thanks guys for following on with me in this journey. It's been a fun year so far!
No worries. I was going to post a response anyway.
I'm new to the AMG world, coming from VW, Audi and Porsche. I'm not new to the aftermarket however.
I started over a year ago on my quest for more power with a stage 2 tune from EC here in Houston. Within a week I had experienced Limp Mode on the highway after a particularly aggressive pull well into "take me to jail" speeds.
I reached back out to the salesman who sold me the tune. To be honest I wasn't happy with the response at the time.
I was informed that because I was stock I would need downpipes to resolve the issue. I wasn't prepared to do that so I pulled the tune, got a partial refund and reverted back to stock.
I languished with a stock tune for 4 months.
I'm a subsea engineer and we build equipment to very high specs. I know the safety factors built in to all the equipment we manufacture.
Any car company receiving TUV certification in Germany is adhering to the same engineering best practices.
During those 4 months I started looking at the Tunes on the market and they all showed gobs of torque down low, with power dropping off up top. I wasn't happy with that. It seems like they were all clamoring for market share by posting the most torque numbers.
I get it, I truely do. But the reality of these cars is that all that torque doesn't buy you much out of the hole.
All the research I did on the car showed how intrusive the TCU tune was in the lower gears, regardless of what you had done to your car.
The TCU didn't care if you had a Big Turbo or not... its wasn't going to let you play in the lower gears regardless.
Around this time I was talking to my friends in the local AMG Social Club and was told to "Talk to Jerry".
A friend brokered a meeting and we scheduled a dyno session to try and get me a tune I could be happy with, all while retaining the stock hardware.
I met Jerry the day of the dyno session and we discussed my background, the car's configuration, and what I wanted in a tune. I told him I wanted to retard torque in the lower RPM's and rely on timing advance in the higher RPM's to make power.
I wanted a tune that didn't fall on itself in the higher RPM's.
We started a session that amassed over 20 pulls.
At the time I was looking for a 93 octane tune that could adapt to race gas with lower torque down low.
I'll never forget the look on Jerry's face after the first few initial pulls off a new base map. It was like someone had given him the "golden ticket"
We ended up with a tune that didn't fall on its face power wise, and actually continued to make power all the way to redline. This was something new.
I took it to the track and gained an immediate 0.5 seconds improvement in the quarter mile, to an 11.5 but also improved my trap to 125 mph.
The car was happy, I was happy.
The tune stayed like that for a few months, but I knew there was much more in it, and as I became more comfortable with the car I started having discussions with Jerry again about a "Race Only" tune for the track where we could raise the timing etc to utilize Race Gas.
I had two ECU's so I was going to put the "Brett Morry" tune on one ECU, and the "Race Only Tune" on the second ECU. We were going to do this the following week.
I left EC Houston with half a tank of 104 and the Race Only Tune and set a new personal best of 11.2 in the quarter. I was happy with everything except the price of the gas in that tank... lol.
Back at EC Houston the following week and we start discussing the MyGenius handheld. This was a great idea, as I could now load my Stage 1 tune and my Race tune on the same handheld and then upload to the ECU when required.
I purchased the Handheld and we loaded my stock OEM file, my Stage 1 file and my Race Only File onto the handheld.
Around that time I was talking to my friends about the cost of race gas, and one of my friends told me he had been running E30 in his car for over a year with no detrimental effect.
I discussed this with Jerry and the beginnings of the E60 tune where formulated.
This brings us to present day where I ran a E60 file last week and discovered fuel delivery issues (my pump may be getting old - I'm at 82000 miles). I sent Jerry the files... he did his magic and voila, last Friday night I set yet another new personal best of 11.0@129 mph.
This time running a E50 file for added security.
Where do we go from here?
I need to get back on the dyno asap to see if there is any more headroom available to get me that coveted 10.9 time slip, all while safely operating within the AMG performance envelop.
If I can trap 130 then that'll be awesome as well. All this at under 18psi max boost!
Remember, my car is running all stock hardware, including the Cats and passes emissions with flying colors. I'm even running OEM filters and stock plugs at stock gap.
People who tell you you need to buy additional hardware only want to sell additional hardware.
These cars are over engineered to exactly specifications. If you can find a tune that makes the performance with stock hardware, you've got a good tune.
This tune is almost completed now, with maybe one more tweak to go.
The next step is the TCU tune... If we can find someone who can help us raise the torque limits in 1st and 2nd, then I think I will have a true 10 second car on my hands.... and all due to a tune only.
Thanks guys for following on with me in this journey. It's been a fun year so far!
Thank you for taking the time to explain it! I spoke with Renntech a couple of years ago about their TCU tune and was ready to do it but someone here did and the numbers didn’t show much. Renntech says they raise the trq limits and actually improve shifting.
I do want a TCU tune, but every time I do a search regarding the TCU tune I uncover yet another disgruntled customer, at least as it relates to Renntech.
I wish there was just more info out there. No one seems to have tangible evidence to support Renntech's claim.
GAD may be an alternative. I will be reaching out to them this week. Anyone have a contact at GAD who I could talk too?
I do want a TCU tune, but every time I do a search regarding the TCU tune I uncover yet another disgruntled customer, at least as it relates to Renntech.
I wish there was just more info out there. No one seems to have tangible evidence to support Renntech's claim.
GAD may be an alternative. I will be reaching out to them this week. Anyone have a contact at GAD who I could talk too?
DM me instead if someone does.
The RennTech TCU did feel to allow more TQ in those lower gears, sadly I had no opportunity to log it. Having gone back to stock TCU tune there is/was a difference in the way the transmission responded. My experience would say it may be best to allow the torque management. On stock turbos, there may simply be to much early torque to keep the transmission healthy.
As far as GAD, it was my understanding that you must send them a transmission to tune it. With the TCU internal to the transmission it seemed like a large amount of down time.
Additionally, it would appear the RennTech TCU tune is not something they developed "in-house" I have been led to believe that RennTech "pays" a 3rd party for each flash. I would not be surprised if they are licensing it from GAD or similar. If memory serves me the flashing software was written in German.
If I had a tune that allowed perhaps 10psi in first then I may have made it into the 10's Friday night.
I guess I need to continue to concentrate on the top end, where the tune is unaffected by the TCU.
The RennTech TCU did feel to allow more TQ in those lower gears, sadly I had no opportunity to log it. Having gone back to stock TCU tune there is/was a difference in the way the transmission responded. My experience would say it may be best to allow the torque management. On stock turbos, there may simply be to much early torque to keep the transmission healthy.
As far as GAD, it was my understanding that you must send them a transmission to tune it. With the TCU internal to the transmission it seemed like a large amount of down time.
Additionally, it would appear the RennTech TCU tune is not something they developed "in-house" I have been led to believe that RennTech "pays" a 3rd party for each flash. I would not be surprised if they are licensing it from GAD or similar. If memory serves me the flashing software was written in German.
just out of curiosity, why did you go back to the stock TCU software? Did the car shift any different in comfort mode?
First of all, @brutus_tx thanks for everything you are doing in this thread! Your detail and testing is amazing and a huge help here.
As background, I have turbo-back down pipes and high flow cats, with UPD intake spacers on a 2012 E63 wagon, about 70k miles. Have been running a EC stage two for a couple years, making great power on the dyno, less impressive results on the track. Knew the next step up would be turbos, meth, built trans, but the difference people have seen with those mods haven’t really made it worth the spend, so I’ve been just enjoying the car and having a little fun here and there. Last dyno was maxed at 628rwhp and 747rwtq (separate runs for HP max and TQ max. also this was with no cats, was before I put high flows back on), which is pretty stout for these cars. Here’s those dyno sheets-you can see how much variation we had between runs. Highest HP - 628 Highest TQ - 747
I grabbed the base e60 beta tune file from Jerry and got it flashed at EC Orlando on the 4th. I could feel the difference in power, but esp midrange and up top. Totally different animal. Has some misfiring/hesitation at the top of 3rd and 4th(no CEL, no limp), so dropped it off this week to get dyno tuned remotely by Jerry with a tank full of e60. Good news/bad news... the good is that the car is INSANE: 674rwhp/872rwtq !!!! This is on a 90degree day with 60% humidity. That’s amazing... this feels like a new era. My only mods since the last dyno was to basically make my exhaust more restrictive with adding back in cats, make the temperature during the day hotter, and of course...adding some corn juice to my gas. The bad news is simple: I’m basically making 800hp/1000tq at the motor, and my transmission is going to explode if I don’t get it built soon haha (doing that in the next week or two). Still having some misfires consistently at the top of the 3rd, but not sure that is the tune...may be my plugs, may be my fuel mix, tbd. Drivability not effected at all otherwise/no CEL, so going to work with Jerry to figure it out while I wait for the trans kit to come in (if anyone wants to see a video of it, glad to share for input). There is so much more to learn about this but I’m loving it, and big shout out to Jerry for investing the time here-huge benefit for our community!
@uberwag. Thank you for complement. I appreciate it. I'm excited to see others getting the benefit of this research.
Do you have a means to log STFT to make sure you're not leaning out and that you are not experiencing fuel cut due to loss of fuel pressure due to the pump not keeping up with demand?
We had to make modifications to my E60 tune to allow an increase in pump pressure.
Are you stock plugs at stock gap? If not please swap them out.
I'm also running E50 now to make less of a demand on my fuel system.
Please get to the track and log some runs. I think your 1/4 trap will impress you.
First of all, @brutus_tx thanks for everything you are doing in this thread! Your detail and testing is amazing and a huge help here.
As background, I have turbo-back down pipes and high flow cats, with UPD intake spacers on a 2012 E63 wagon, about 70k miles. Have been running a EC stage two for a couple years, making great power on the dyno, less impressive results on the track. Knew the next step up would be turbos, meth, built trans, but the difference people have seen with those mods haven’t really made it worth the spend, so I’ve been just enjoying the car and having a little fun here and there. Last dyno was maxed at 628rwhp and 747rwtq (separate runs for HP max and TQ max. also this was with no cats, was before I put high flows back on), which is pretty stout for these cars.
I grabbed the base e60 beta tune file from Jerry and got it flashed at EC Orlando on the 4th. I could feel the difference in power, but esp midrange and up top. Totally different animal. Has some misfiring/hesitation at the top of 3rd and 4th(no CEL, no limp), so dropped it off this week to get dyno tuned remotely by Jerry with a tank full of e60. Good news/bad news... the good is that the car is INSANE: 674rwhp/872rwtq !!!! This is on a 90degree day with 60% humidity. That’s amazing... this feels like a new era. My only mods since the last dyno was to basically make my exhaust more restrictive with adding back in cats, make the temperature during the day hotter, and of course...adding some corn juice to my gas.
From this, it seems like the extra power is due to tuning for the high octane, and not due to limiting boost/torque as was previously theorized.
Personally, I'd rather get the required mods & have a true e85 tune than have to gas up twice every time it needs filled up, with both e85 and 93 octane ... while constantly worrying about having too much e85 (not enough fuel) or too little e85 (not enough octane) in there.
From this, it seems like the extra power is due to tuning for the high octane, and not due to limiting boost/torque as was previously theorized.
Personally, I'd rather get the required mods & have a true e85 tune than have to gas up twice every time it needs filled up, with both e85 and 93 octane ... while constantly worrying about having too much e85 (not enough fuel) or too little e85 (not enough octane) in there.
The tune looks spot on, I would agree the extra power is coming from the fuel mixture. My car makes significantly more power on ms109, this engine responds well to high octane fuels.
I don’t think so much your fuel pump is going bad or weak . E85 has to be injected atleast 25-35% more compared to gasoline which requires a fuel pump that can keep up with the demand in fuel. That’s why the lower you go back down in E mix the higher the pressure returns. I guess finding that happy medium is what your after to keep your stock pumps. Or upgrade the pumps that will keep up with full e85.
From this, it seems like the extra power is due to tuning for the high octane, and not due to limiting boost/torque as was previously theorized.
Personally, I'd rather get the required mods & have a true e85 tune than have to gas up twice every time it needs filled up, with both e85 and 93 octane ... while constantly worrying about having too much e85 (not enough fuel) or too little e85 (not enough octane) in there.
I honestly think its a combination of the two to be honest. Timing and Boost. I'm only running sub 18 psi max now on a tune that makes much more power then the older 22 psi tune.
I get where you are coming from E85 wise, and I may end up there, but I'm trying to maximize performance while staying within the OEM envelope currently.
I want a tune that's switchable between 93 for everyday and throw the corn on top for those track days.
I don't want to drive around like a raped ape all the time.
This tune provides a nice bump in performance and driveability when running on 93... and makes for a great daily drive.
Throw the corn on there and gain 70 wheel horsepower over the street tune (almost 800 crank) for those track days you want to embarrass people.
If I want to increase my daily performance then I will have to invest in an inline pump before going full E85.
If this wasn't my daily I'd be considering it.
Once this tune is buttoned up, I may invest in an inline pump for piece of mind... heck I may go catless for temp management as well.
I just want to end up with a tune right now that doesn't have to rely on aftermarket mods to perform.
I don’t think so much your fuel pump is going bad or weak . E85 has to be injected atleast 25-35% more compared to gasoline which requires a fuel pump that can keep up with the demand in fuel. That’s why the lower you go back down in E mix the higher the pressure returns. I guess finding that happy medium is what your after to keep your stock pumps. Or upgrade the pumps that will keep up with full e85.
exactly... right now E50 seems the sweet spot for me with my hardware and tune.
others are taking my base tune and massaging it to go straight to E85... with inline pumps.
I expect to see some pretty good numbers at the track soon...
If I want to increase my daily performance then I will have to invest in an inline pump before going full E85.
If this wasn't my daily I'd be considering it.
Once this tune is buttoned up, I may invest in an inline pump for piece of mind... heck I may go catless for temp management as well.
I just want to end up with a tune right now that doesn't have to rely on aftermarket mods to perform.
I think the M157 uses the same HPFP as the 6 cylinder amg's we just have 2 instead of one. Likley the low pressure (in-tank) pump could keep up without a inline. I will have to look again but I thought someone was offering a hpfp upgrade. The concern would be if the rest of the fuel system is compatible for e85 long term. Would be awesome not to pay $6 - $10 a gallon.
E85 blends will always allow extra timing which will create more power.
But this new revised tune from Eurocharged has helped alot aswell, less heat, better top end, more HP, and a dyno chart where the top end power to redline doesnt fall off like a mountain. Less tq down low and PSI requested down low from the turbos like we are use to from many earlier tunes, including many other popular offers.
FWIW, Renntech has been using this tuning method with higher in the rpm range boost peaks for a while Strong power, low boost.
10-11-2019 | 11:41 PM
