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yet the op has now had two catastrophic problems on two Amgs, the m156 and this 157; he must just be really unluckily; I'll gladly get a warranty because it's a tiny expense for lots of peace of mind. He is likely sure glad he had warranties on both these cars and likely will never own an amg without a warranty
I again disagree with you, and you seem to make it out that the M157 having major engine issues is common, in fact it is VERY rare.. In all my pre purchase in depth research, i didnt come across one owner who had a major engine failure on the M157, im sure it happens, but it is 100% NOT a common occurence. The m157 in fact is a very reliable motor from my research of talking to dealer techs, SA’s and chatting with forum members in DM’s here on the forum. m157 cylinder and piston scoring is 100% not a common theme on this motor aswell.
I dont disagree on having a warranty, but future owners will mostly be left with very limited warranty options if any, and i dont want the M157 message being incorrect that these engines are all time bombs
Interesting notes here:
OP didnt have a major engine breakdown of any kind, and his ticking didnt seem to be out of the norm in his videos, as the cylinder and piston scoring as mentioned wont make a type of noise. He did have scoring which is a problem.
Scoring is sometimes caused from foreign matter getting into the combustion chamber, seeing as multiple cylinders were lighty scored and not just one, is it possible the OP’s aftermarket intake was letting dirt by? Or there was a gap or installation error?
Some of the pistons look to have heat spots on them? Might be the pictures.. could be a sign of the cars performance tuning being off and running a lil lean, whiched caused extra heat, which could lead to a host of other issues. Pictues of the spark plugs would have helped here.
Did the previous owner beat on the car while the engine oil was cold? Help create some of that scoring from lack of oil lubrication?
Many reasons possible, but we will ever know for sure for this specific case.
First issue i have seen on this forum is lack of data on any performance tunes.
No one has any datalogs, or checks their tuning. They rely that their tuner has perfected the tune for each engine perfectly.
99% of guys here dont even know what boost they are running lol forget about timing and or AFR’s.
I again disagree with you, and you seem to make it out that the M157 having major engine issues is common, in fact it is VERY rare.. In all my pre purchase in depth research, i didnt come across one owner who had a major engine failure on the M157, im sure it happens, but it is 100% NOT a common occurence. The m157 in fact is a very reliable motor from my research of talking to dealer techs, SA’s and chatting with forum members in DM’s here on the forum. m157 cylinder and piston scoring is 100% not a common theme on this motor aswell.
Interesting notes here:
OP didnt have a major engine breakdown of any kind, and his ticking didnt seem to be out of the norm in his videos, as the cylinder and piston scoring as mentioned wont make a type of noise. He did have scoring which is a problem.
Scoring is sometimes caused from foreign matter getting into the combustion chamber, seeing as multiple cylinders were lighty scored and not just one, is it possible the OP’s aftermarket intake was letting dirt by? Or there was a gap or installation error?
Some of the pistons look to have heat spots on them? Might be the pictures.. could be a sign of the cars performance tuning being off and running a lil lean, whiched caused extra heat, which could lead to a host of other issues. Pictues of the spark plugs would have helped here.
Did the previous owner beat on the car while the engine oil was cold? Help create some of that scoring from lack of oil lubrication?
Many reasons possible, but we will ever know for sure for this specific case.
First issue i have seen on this forum is lack of data on any performance tunes.
No one has any datalogs, or checks their tuning. They rely that their tuner has perfected the tune for each engine perfectly.
99% of guys here dont even know what boost they are running lol forget about timing and or AFR’s.
you make great points; I'm not nearly as researched or intelligent as you regarding the M157.
that being said, I'm happy to have a warranty for rare circumstances that would leave me with a big bill; I accept and understand that you would err on the side of not paying for a warranty and that sounds very reasonable.
I've seen you mention this exact thing several times on this forum: Most guys on here don't know what boost we are running because we trust a company that is trusted to create a reliable tune. I'm not a gearhead, I'm a dad and have plenty of jobs to work, I don't really care to know that. Is that unacceptable? again, I don't have your experience or knowledge base with all this and don't really want to; most of us with a tune don't have issues with our cars. You'll be a great resource for this forum with your insight!
Last edited by PeterUbers; 11-16-2018 at 10:02 AM.
you make great points; I'm not nearly as researched or intelligent as you regarding the M157.
that being said, I'm happy to have a warranty for rare circumstances that would leave me with a big bill; I accept and understand that you would err on the side of not paying for a warranty and that sounds very reasonable.
I've seen you mention this exact thing several times on this forum: Most guys on here don't know what boost we are running because we trust a company that is trusted to create a reliable tune. I'm not a gearhead, I'm a dad and have plenty of jobs to work, I don't really care to know that. Is that unacceptable? again, I don't have your experience or knowledge base with all this and don't really want to; most of us with a tune don't have issues with our cars. You'll be a great resource for this forum with your insight!
I will add this to your post Peter, with the prices of these cars dropping into the $20ks, $30ks and 40k, more gearheads who care more about these sort of things will emerge.
Expect a whole lot of changes in tunes over the next couple of years where a lot of these are addressed, more issues discovered, more issues fixed, and ease of tunes becoming the norm rather than the exception
I will add this to your post Peter, with the prices of these cars dropping into the $20ks, $30ks and 40k, more gearheads who care more about these sort of things will emerge.
Expect a whole lot of changes in tunes over the next couple of years where a lot of these are addressed, more issues discovered, more issues fixed, and ease of tunes becoming the norm rather than the exception
excellent point! With a $30k car if someone has a bad tune and needs $80k in work, I suspect they will be rather upset. But like he said above the stock tuner engine is relatively reliable.
Additionally if there are "bad tunes" out there (bench tunes) then we will theoretically see many more failures reported/emerging if there are fundamental flaws with current popular bench tunes (ams/renntech/euro)
Last edited by PeterUbers; 11-16-2018 at 12:39 PM.
you make great points; I'm not nearly as researched or intelligent as you regarding the M157.
that being said, I'm happy to have a warranty for rare circumstances that would leave me with a big bill; I accept and understand that you would err on the side of not paying for a warranty and that sounds very reasonable.
My car currently still has warranty as it came with one as i only have 15K miles on her aswell. I do absolutely think warranty is always a good thing and most guys should have if on such pricey cars. I also do believe future owners will be able to handle these cars out of warranty within reason. Most of these aftermarket private warranties are limited in cars they cover and even more limited in specific parts they cover. Most of the time they are so expensive that you usually dont even get your money back in repairs. Its always a case on case basis right, starting off with a low mileage, clean car, having some know how on maintenance and repairing cars all helps in not purchasing a aftermarket warranty and or enjoying these cars well after their warranty has run out. My point im trying to make was, i dont think all M157 that are maintained well are set for certain death lol and i dont think future owners have to be sacred of this platform.
I've seen you mention this exact thing several times on this forum: Most guys on here don't know what boost we are running because we trust a company that is trusted to create a reliable tune. I'm not a gearhead, I'm a dad and have plenty of jobs to work, I don't really care to know that. Is that unacceptable? again, I don't have your experience or knowledge base with all this and don't really want to; most of us with a tune don't have issues with our cars. You'll be a great resource for this forum with your insight!
You bring alot of good detailed information about our cars to light all the time, all over the forum.
A guy as detailed and informative as you i feel would love the datalogging aspect with our cars. Knowing your igntion system and spark plugs are healthy and able to hit ingition timing targets,
or making sure your fuel system and fuel pumps are hitting their 2900 psi of pressure at full throttle,
or say you feel like your car isnt performing as strong as you remembered and wanted to make sure you have no boost leaks and your car is hitting its peak boost pressure, its only a datalog away to confirm. Numbers dont lie
I hope to make a thread soon to bring a easy start “how to” to datalogging so we can all easily share our data.
I have talked to a few members here that are tuned and had some way of checking their boost. It seems tuners on 93 octane, range boost from 18-21psi.. mostly making similiar power. So why the swing in boost? I wont name the tunes, but it seems some tunes are just pushing a bit more boost then they need to, and riding the knock sensors, letting the ignition system correct it. This also, allows excess IAT’s. Some of that extra boost just makes some extra tq, no HP. This also gives repeatability issues, where power doesnt seem consistent.
So it is fun to see the different take on each tune and what they do.
Cant wait to see some AFR’s.
I do understand the set it and forget it aspect, esp paying so much money for these overpriced amg tax tunes. You would believe a trusted, well know tuner will sell you a safe tune. The sad reality is, no tuner ever takes credit for a failed engine, and specifically blaming a tuner, you will be countered with a host of technical OTHER ways the engine most likely failed lol.. of course everyones right foot and mileage varies.
Sometimes it might not be the tunes that are dangerous or not very well dialed in.
Sometimes its the cars supporting hardware that slowly fails or doesnt like the increase in boost, like fuel pumps and injectors, etc.
Replied in bold above.
Originally Posted by kponti
I will add this to your post Peter, with the prices of these cars dropping into the $20ks, $30ks and 40k, more gearheads who care more about these sort of things will emerge.
Expect a whole lot of changes in tunes over the next couple of years where a lot of these are addressed, more issues discovered, more issues fixed, and ease of tunes becoming the norm rather than the exception
I again disagree with you, and you seem to make it out that the M157 having major engine issues is common, in fact it is VERY rare.. In all my pre purchase in depth research, i didnt come across one owner who had a major engine failure on the M157, im sure it happens, but it is 100% NOT a common occurence. The m157 in fact is a very reliable motor from my research of talking to dealer techs, SA’s and chatting with forum members in DM’s here on the forum. m157 cylinder and piston scoring is 100% not a common theme on this motor aswell.
I dont disagree on having a warranty, but future owners will mostly be left with very limited warranty options if any, and i dont want the M157 message being incorrect that these engines are all time bombs
Interesting notes here:
OP didnt have a major engine breakdown of any kind, and his ticking didnt seem to be out of the norm in his videos, as the cylinder and piston scoring as mentioned wont make a type of noise. He did have scoring which is a problem.
Scoring is sometimes caused from foreign matter getting into the combustion chamber, seeing as multiple cylinders were lighty scored and not just one, is it possible the OP’s aftermarket intake was letting dirt by? Or there was a gap or installation error?
Some of the pistons look to have heat spots on them? Might be the pictures.. could be a sign of the cars performance tuning being off and running a lil lean, whiched caused extra heat, which could lead to a host of other issues. Pictues of the spark plugs would have helped here.
Did the previous owner beat on the car while the engine oil was cold? Help create some of that scoring from lack of oil lubrication?
Many reasons possible, but we will ever know for sure for this specific case.
First issue i have seen on this forum is lack of data on any performance tunes.
No one has any datalogs, or checks their tuning. They rely that their tuner has perfected the tune for each engine perfectly.
99% of guys here dont even know what boost they are running lol forget about timing and or AFR’s.
One thing I can guarantee you: There was no installation error on the intake. It would actually be pretty difficult to screw that up. It is fairly bullet proof. Also, there were no chips or other debris of any kind found in the oil pan and the all rod and main bearings were pristine. So I think we can put the intake theory to bed.
Also, I don't think Peter ever claimed it was "common" for M157 motors to have major issues. I believe he was simply saying that like any product on the planet, there will be statistical random events. I was unlucky. Yes. This is true. I believe Peter is saying the warranty is simply a great method for peace of mind against such rare random events.
One thing I can guarantee you: There was no installation error on the intake. It would actually be pretty difficult to screw that up. It is fairly bullet proof. Also, there were no chips or other debris of any kind found in the oil pan and the all rod and main bearings were pristine. So I think we can put the intake theory to bed.
Also, I don't think Peter ever claimed it was "common" for M157 motors to have major issues. I believe he was simply saying that like any product on the planet, there will be statistical random events. I was unlucky. Yes. This is true. I believe Peter is saying the warranty is simply a great method for peace of mind against such rare random events.
Usually any small dirt particles that make themselves into the intake track and survive the trip all the way into the combustion chamber wont be found in the bottom of the oil pan lol
remember these are fine dirt particles we are speaking of
A simple google search should show you that multiple scored cylinders will usually point to foreign dirt particles being the cause or a overheating issue. I would label the intake theory, strong and alive lol. Maybe a gasket was pinched?
Usually any small dirt particles that make themselves into the intake track and survive the trip all the way into the combustion chamber wont be found in the bottom of the oil pan lol
remember these are fine dirt particles we are speaking of
A simple google search should show you that multiple scored cylinders will usually point to foreign dirt particles being the cause or a overheating issue. I would label the intake theory, strong and alive lol. Maybe a gasket was pinched?
The tech stated in his new engine justification 2 potential theories as to what likely caused the scoring.
1) Carbon on the top of one or 2 of the pistons may have come loose and resulted in the scoring. Also, there were only 2 cylinders affected (adjacent holes on the left bank). He also suggested to the SA that the driving differences between the old driver and me could have caused the carbon pieces to crack free. He believed the excessive carbon was an indicator that the previous owner babied the car too much and then when I drove it harder the pieces came free. Do I buy 100% into this? NO. But it is as good an explanation as anything else.
2) His bore gauge found that both of these holes were slightly out of round and mentioned that over a period of time the scoring developed, and worsened, to the point of a minor piston slap resulting in the ticking.
Per your argument, that particulate is fine and very small that may not be seen in the oil pan, I would then question how did 2 adjacent holes develop this while the rest of the engine was fine if the intake was responsible? And as I said having personally installed the UPD intake, it was done correctly. I have built a few motors over the years (more so when I was younger) so I believe between that and the fact that I am Mechanical Engineer, I would be considered competent to install this piece of cake UPD intake.
Honestly Bud at this point I'm a bit tired of beating this horse! :-) Definitive answers may never be known as to the root cause. I honestly don't care since I have a new motor. I think we need to stop this loop at this point.
The oblonged holes leads me to believe you had 1 or 2 issues.
1: Bad clearances when the engine was built
2: Lubrication issues
Your previous tune on the M156, while it may not have been a major increase in power, doesn't preclude it from being the cause of a spun bearing. Detonation can still occur even on very conservative tunes. A well done aggressive tune can certainly have better longevity than a one making far less power but not done properly or with a car where there are mechanical issues going on in the background (like an intake tract leak post MAF on a MAF based setup) But that's neither here no there since you don't have the car any more.
The oblonged holes leads me to believe you had 1 or 2 issues.
1: Bad clearances when the engine was built
2: Lubrication issues
Your previous tune on the M156, while it may not have been a major increase in power, doesn't preclude it from being the cause of a spun bearing. Detonation can still occur even on very conservative tunes. A well done aggressive tune can certainly have better longevity than a one making far less power but not done properly or with a car where there are mechanical issues going on in the background (like an intake tract leak post MAF on a MAF based setup) But that's neither here no there since you don't have the car any more.
Previous tune you mentioned was the VERY common v5 tune from Eurocharged. How many of these do you suppose they sold? In addition, I only had the tune on there for a year or so when bearing spun. Hear of any other guys with this tune from EC that spun a bearing? I doubt it. I havent and I am on this site more often than I should be.
Not sure how this thread turned into a debate about tunes vs non tunes, or an exercize for everyone to claim they know better as to what happened or caused the issues than the owner of the cars or the trained AMG techs that do this for a living. No offense to anyone, but none of you know, and I dont know. There simply is no smoking gun in either case and none of us have all the parts in front of us to do a full blown failure analysis. And my SA, as much as I love the dude, doesnt share every detail that he hears from his techs. So it is somewhat futile to continue the debate. I welcome someone to start a thread on the risks of adding a tune.
But please guys, this thread was originally posted to simply share how well MB took care of me as a customer and to share details of what a new engine comes with. So can we leave this failure analysis and tune speculation out of this thread at this point?
Benz made me whole with my two buybacks and it's good to see the stepping up to replace your engine
what I have learned since 2014 is that it's really a good conscientious and customer supportive service manager that can make or break your service claim/warranty claim
vrod has a good one and I had a great one at naperville benz that went to bat for me with my two brand new e550's with the same damn trans defect
st Charles Benz wrote me off and I bought the first one from them!
Previous tune you mentioned was the VERY common v5 tune from Eurocharged. How many of these do you suppose they sold? In addition, I only had the tune on there for a year or so when bearing spun. Hear of any other guys with this tune from EC that spun a bearing? I doubt it. I havent and I am on this site more often than I should be.
Not sure how this thread turned into a debate about tunes vs non tunes, or an exercize for everyone to claim they know better as to what happened or caused the issues than the owner of the cars or the trained AMG techs that do this for a living. No offense to anyone, but none of you know, and I dont know. There simply is no smoking gun in either case and none of us have all the parts in front of us to do a full blown failure analysis. And my SA, as much as I love the dude, doesnt share every detail that he hears from his techs. So it is somewhat futile to continue the debate. I welcome someone to start a thread on the risks of adding a tune.
But please guys, this thread was originally posted to simply share how well MB took care of me as a customer and to share details of what a new engine comes with. So can we leave this failure analysis and tune speculation out of this thread at this point?
Thanks in Advance
vrod,
i totally agree with you:
- all discussion about what the tune did and didn't do is entirely speculation, period amen.
- that euro charged tune you had was so mild that it couldn't possibly have caused your engine mishap with the bearings
- your current M157 woes are most likely either a manufacturing defect or someone did or didn't drive the thing right before you go it. Us going around and round will not benefit us in any way to determine the cause of the pinging OR the scoring -- it's a rabbit hole and it would only serve to undermine the ams tune which for me and many others is very solid
- you are the unluckiest and luckiest amg owner i know -- two huge claims and the warrantied were honored!! $110,000 in claims!
- also very few owners are mechanical engineers so you bring a very unique and articulate insight into this discussion for sure that helps a guy like me understand the applied science as it pertains to this engine
and BIG picture is that this thread has been hijacked -- it's truly about Benz stepping up and making this situation right, no doubt.
Cheers brother and happy Thanksgiving -- really looking forward to your driving impressions once this heart transplant is done.
Heart transplant is complete and everything is perfect so far. Here are a couple of pics of the new power plant. There was talk earlier in the thread about possibly needing to swap the signature placard on the CF cover with the placard from the builder of the new motor. This will not be necessary. Take a look below as to why. It turns out that the new motor actually came with a new placard in a plastic bag. I laid it right above the currently installed placard. Notice anything? :-) Marcel has a been a busy boy!
Heart transplant is complete and everything is perfect so far. Here are a couple of pics of the new power plant. There was talk earlier in the thread about possibly needing to swap the signature placard on the CF cover with the placard from the builder of the new motor. This will not be necessary. Take a look below as to why. It turns out that the new motor actually came with a new placard in a plastic bag. I laid it right above the currently installed placard. Notice anything? :-) Marcel has a been a busy boy!
Seeing Double? Finished Product! Shiny New Stuff!
Vrod - looks great, very happy to hear the swap went well! Have you driven it yet??? How crazy is that - Marcel built both your motors
Vrod - looks great, very happy to hear the swap went well! Have you driven it yet??? How crazy is that - Marcel built both your motors
Hey J,
Yep. Been driving her for about 5 days now. NICE AND EASY! Up to about 100 miles. another 400 to go before I start pushing her. I will drive her fairly aggressively at that point for a couple of weeks, and then, try out the latest tweaked ECU from AMS!
Initial impressions are the following even with babying her:
1) she seems to have more initial pedal response from the dig. I barely touch the pedal and she want to lunge. Feels better than old motor in that regard.
2) When I somewhat moderately punch the throttle in park up to 3500 rpm roughly, the turbo spooling seems louder than the old motor. Wondering if that old motor may have not been fully well even before the ticking.
I will update again after I am able to open her up!
Yep. Been driving her for about 5 days now. NICE AND EASY! Up to about 100 miles. another 400 to go before I start pushing her. I will drive her fairly aggressively at that point for a couple of weeks, and then, try out the latest tweaked ECU from AMS!
Initial impressions are the following even with babying her:
1) she seems to have more initial pedal response from the dig. I barely touch the pedal and she want to lunge. Feels better than old motor in that regard.
2) When I somewhat moderately punch the throttle in park up to 3500 rpm roughly, the turbo spooling seems louder than the old motor. Wondering if that old motor may have not been fully well even before the ticking.
I will update again after I am able to open her up!
I have been following your thread. Glad to hear things are back in order. Way to go! Btw, thanks to Peter (and you) I will be going the AMS route! I can’t wait.
I have been following your thread. Glad to hear things are back in order. Way to go! Btw, thanks to Peter (and you) I will be going the AMS route! I can’t wait.
You won't believe the difference when you get the tune! It's not subtle. I guarantee you will be giggling like an 8 year old girl. LOL
The engine builder comment reminds of Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear saying he didn't understand how the engine builders could "hand build" enough AMG engines to meet the demand. It was something like a 1,000 a day for 50 builders.
The engine builder comment reminds of Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear saying he didn't understand how the engine builders could "hand build" enough AMG engines to meet the demand. It was something like a 1,000 a day for 50 builders.
Not sure about your volumes. But my SA claims he toured the AMG plant and that the techs build about 1-1/2 v6 motors per day and about 1 per day of the big motors. So that works out to best case 250 of our motors per year per tech. Seems too low right? The real unknown question is what is the total build volume per year for the M157? If we know that we can estimate how many techs are building them (assuming my SA is correct). Then we would be able to determine the probability of me getting 2 from the same builder.
I actually wonder if the the whole sig placard is a marketing gimmic not actually authentic. Hmmmmm
Your point is good though. I have wondered more than I should have about the same question. Lol
The fact that you have posted on a forum about your damaged engine that you have a tuned ECU and a factory ecu is extremely stupid. You are beyond lucky Mercedes covered that engine. Normally they look for signs of modifications. You must have slipped through the cracks. Seriously stop posting about it because Id be willing to bet you will have a status 6 or 8 on your vmi the second Mercedes sees any of this. And trust me they will, techs see these boards all the time. All it takes is one email with a link or screenshots to a field tech and within an hour, you will have to get special authorization from high up to do ANY warranty work on your car. You are pushing your luck. Just trying to help you. I've seen it happen. A lot.
The fact that you have posted on a forum about your damaged engine that you have a tuned ECU and a factory ecu is extremely stupid. You are beyond lucky Mercedes covered that engine. Normally they look for signs of modifications. You must have slipped through the cracks. Seriously stop posting about it because Id be willing to bet you will have a status 6 or 8 on your vmi the second Mercedes sees any of this. And trust me they will, techs see these boards all the time. All it takes is one email with a link or screenshots to a field tech and within an hour, you will have to get special authorization from high up to do ANY warranty work on your car. You are pushing your luck. Just trying to help you. I've seen it happen. A lot.
I hear you. Then again, who said I didn't make the whole tune and 2nd ecu thing up for conversation sake? Additionally, if I did have a 2nd ECU with a tune, It would not likely be the cause of the damage incurred. Guys on here with older engines out of warranty put major modifications on their motors much more so than an ECU tune without such damage. Now if someone with a tuned ECU were to snap a driveshaft or cause some other drive train damage to their car, I would be very suspicious of the tuned ECU. But scored cylinder walls on only 2 adjacent holes?
Also, most dealers are not so worried about such things as they are making revenue from the factory for the warranty work. They really don't have a strong motivation to worry about tunes and black balling customers. The factory on the other hand? Sure I would agree with your concern.
But for the record, let's just say I never really had a tune.
Lol! Ok bud. You are telling me what dealers are worried about?? If you only had any idea what you are talking about. Let me make one thing clear: dealers dont give a sh#t about you or your car and try to screw you. It literally has nothing to do with trying to deny your warranty . The fact is, the only thing dealers care about is if they will get reimbursed by Mercedes for the cost of your warranty repair . If Mercedes thinks the engine should not have been replaced on their dime because of having an aftermarket tune or performance parts then they just deny the claim and leave the dealership to absorb that masive cost. Doesn't matter if it's 6 months down the road. Not only will that get the service manager in trouble with Mercedes, it will most likely get the poor technician in trouble too. If you think you can hide having a second ecu for your car, you are sadly mistaken. This warranty claim slipped through the cracks. The most important thing people need to understand is it doesn't matter if you "think" a tune can cause cylinder wall scores or literally any other damage. The FACT is, when you have a tune, you are pushing every component on that engine beyond what Mercedes designed it to operate at. Doesn't matter what anyone else has done successfully or not. All that matters is you are operating everything past what mercedes decided it was safe to limit it to. When that happens their is extra heat, extra expansion to components, extra stress. That extra stress and heat could have definitely contributed to internal wear. I have 18 years exp as a master lead technician for mercedes. I've worked at 4 different dealers. Trust me when I say you are pushing your luck. 2015 and newer mercedes have the ability to remotely run a test any car with Mbrace/Hermes control units. In that remote test which you will never know is happening is all the ecu coding/software calibration numbers. If they run the test and check those numbers with any ecu that does not match what came from the factory..... goodbye warranty instantly. People need to understand, if you have a tune and something happens be prepared to pay. Not because the dealership wants to screw you but because your car is not worth losing a job over, sorry.
11-16-2018, 09:10 AM
