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There was data as many of us were data logging back then. In the 3yrs of Renntech’s TCU tune there’s still zero evidence of it improving 1/4mile times. With GAD’s hp and trap speed one has to conclude that their TCU tune hasn’t solved the problem since they can’t even run 9s.
This is straying a bit far off topic so let’s chill on that.
In all of my searches i have yet to ever see 1 datalog until 2019 on this platform posted on this forum, or anything remote to showing TCU datalogs. Show me a post on this forum pre 2019 with a link to an actual full datalog or CSV file please. I think i have seen talk of incorrect boost reading and some IAT reading, and thats it. No timing, knock, throttle valve, actual boost, etc.
I am sorry but if you understand how TCU limiters work and datalogs, i think you can clearly see the TCU isn't playing a single role in restricting power to the ground anymore in GAD's datalogs. The datalogs clearly shows the restrictions and limiters, and anyone can see and understand this. I cant help if you dont understand the information.
And to be clear, GAD and Renntech are just removing tq limiters, nor per se doing any actual tuning to the box for this (raising line pressure the MCT i guess can be called tuning lol)
With 1 customer on the forum owning the renntech tcu tune in 3 years, i can understand why there isn't more data. With the new age of owners always comes the more technical owners and more in depth understanding.
I think the future here holds great things for this platform.
For the price of the TCU tune only available from Renntech in North america, it is not cheap at $2,500 + labor.
On top of the risk of damaging the drive-train and clutch, depending on the power you are making, i see why there isnt more customers running this.
Hi
I have a mercedes benz w212 E250 cdi 4matic yr 2011
Can you help me locate knock sensor 2 (cylinder bank 1)
If you can share some photos will be great
Thanks
True but I wouldn’t be taking short cuts like representing flex fuel without an ethanol sensor and relying solely on knock to determine octane and timing. Or running more than E30 and expecting the HPFPs and LPFP to handle the load properly. I’d also be careful running an E85 specific tune when gas station pumps randomly deliver anything between E50-E90 without having to post exact content.
Chiromikey, your comments got me thinking about the differences in Winter Blend and Summer Blend. Being here in Houston I was wondering if the blends had been cut with gasoline, lowering the effective octane and ethanol content.
I went to the local HEB on 290 at Barker Cypress yesterday and pulled a sample of the E85 while filling the tank. It came in at 85% ethanol, so I'm guessing this far south they don't mess with it.
To your comment, it would be nice to be able to automate this ability to read ethanol concentrations, but since my tune can accommodate E60, and I only ever run E50 maximum, I'm comfortable that the tune is safe enough to vary between E10 and E50.
Maybe I shouldn’t have said “scratching my head” as I know about the tq limitations in the first 3 gears. But the times and mph are still very disappointing after seeing such huge dyno numbers.
I'm pretty happy with the 1/4 mile and street performance levels of my car with just a tune.
A good friend dropped in excess of 25K into his E63S with BT's and the lot, with ALL the supporting mods and netted a 10.9 at 127mph. My tune only with stock everything else is currently at 11.0 at 129/130 mph.
If I was him, I would have been seriously pissed.
On the street, from a 40 roll I hold my own against some pretty good competition, including a tuned/exhaust Huracan. For a 4500 lb car, I think the numbers I'm seeing on the dyno can be directly correlated in the quarter mile, especially if you credit 0.3 tenths for the TCU intervention. My trap alone tells me the car is making the published power.
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Originally Posted by brutus_tx
I'm pretty happy with the 1/4 mile and street performance levels of my car with just a tune.
A good friend dropped in excess of 25K into his E63S with BT's and the lot, with ALL the supporting mods and netted a 10.9 at 127mph. My tune only with stock everything else is currently at 11.0 at 129/130 mph.
If I was him, I would have been seriously pissed.
On the street, from a 40 roll I hold my own against some pretty good competition, including a tuned/exhaust Huracan. For a 4500 lb car, I think the numbers I'm seeing on the dyno can be directly correlated in the quarter mile, especially if you credit 0.3 tenths for the TCU intervention. My trap alone tells me the car is making the published power.
Damn, I’d be pissed if I were him as well but that story is all too familiar around here...and that’s the stigma of this platform. I disagree that the numbers you’re seeing are directly correlated with 1/4mile times when other platforms in this segment with nothing more than a tune and DPs are showing less power than yours on the dyno but running low 10s @ 135mph. Thankfully these cars can hold their own from a roll but that’s just not the yardstick I prefer to measure by. Just my old school opinion. I’m hoping tuning will see new breakthroughs because the E63 has a lot of unlocked potential...but it’s hard to remain optimistic.
Damn, I’d be pissed if I were him as well but that story is all too familiar around here...and that’s the stigma of this platform. I disagree that the numbers you’re seeing are directly correlated with 1/4mile times when other platforms in this segment with nothing more than a tune and DPs are showing less power than yours on the dyno but running low 10s @ 135mph. Thankfully these cars can hold their own from a roll but that’s just not the yardstick I prefer to measure by. Just my old school opinion. I’m hoping tuning will see new breakthroughs because the E63 has a lot of unlocked potential...but it’s hard to remain optimistic.
What are some examples (specifically, weight and HP) of low 10s@135mph? According to this calculator, brutus's trap speed does indeed track well with his dyno results.
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Originally Posted by amgwagonne
What are some examples (specifically, weight and HP) of low 10s@135mph? According to this calculator, brutus's trap speed does indeed track well with his dyno results.
F90 M5s and RS7s. I do believe it’s inappropriate to compare one dyno to another so it’s probably pointless to go down that road.
F90 M5s and RS7s. I do believe it’s inappropriate to compare one dyno to another so it’s probably pointless to go down that road.
Agreed once again on the dyno, as its subjective. The traps on the other hand are less so. That's the unit of measure I look to for performance measurement.
I think we can all agree that the transmission is the limiting factor here, and the TCU is very intrusive in the lower gears. If we were rocking the 9 speed I'd like to think we would be seeing similar times to the FBO M5's and RS7's.
This is all conjecture of course.
My next move will be the TCU... I just need to man up as this is my daily. I wish I had direct access to the tuner of the TCU so I could share logs etc to make sure its not too aggressive.
I have a friend with the M5 Competition running a European tune (don't know which one) with catless downpipes running a 10.4 at 134 (best time / 10.6 average) in the quarter on race gas. He spanks my *** every outing. Its all in the transmission though, as the separation isn't near that much on the highway... he still pulls on me, but its not "welcome to gapplebees" either.
I don't have any friends with the RS7 so I can't compare to them.
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Originally Posted by brutus_tx
Agreed once again on the dyno, as its subjective. The traps on the other hand are less so. That's the unit of measure I look to for performance measurement.
I think we can all agree that the transmission is the limiting factor here, and the TCU is very intrusive in the lower gears. If we were rocking the 9 speed I'd like to think we would be seeing similar times to the FBO M5's and RS7's.
This is all conjecture of course.
My next move will be the TCU... I just need to man up as this is my daily. I wish I had direct access to the tuner of the TCU so I could share logs etc to make sure its not too aggressive.
I have a friend with the M5 Competition running a European tune (don't know which one) with catless downpipes running a 10.4 at 134 (best time / 10.6 average) in the quarter on race gas. He spanks my *** every outing. Its all in the transmission though, as the separation isn't near that much on the highway... he still pulls on me, but its not "welcome to gapplebees" either.
I don't have any friends with the RS7 so I can't compare to them.
Not sure I agree about the 9 speed trans making a big difference since besides software and the extra gears it’s technically the same trans.
Not sure I agree about the 9 speed trans making a big difference since besides software and the extra gears it’s technically the same trans.
Technically that may be the case, but the W213 comes out of the hole much harder than me. The TCU is obviously letting more power reach the ground in the lower gears in some form or fashion. I don't know the spec differences, but in the real world there are definite differences in how it performs.
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Originally Posted by brutus_tx
Technically that may be the case, but the W213 comes out of the hole much harder than me. The TCU is obviously letting more power reach the ground in the lower gears in some form or fashion. I don't know the spec differences, but in the real world there are definite differences in how it performs.
On average I agree it typically and more consistently launches better...but when you look at the best 60ft times for both, there isn’t much, if any, difference.
On average I agree it typically and more consistently launches better...but when you look at the best 60ft times for both, there isn’t much, if any, difference.
According to my draggy data my best 60' are all in the 1.7 range, at least the ones I have saved. This is on the street with 35 psi.
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Originally Posted by Savage212
According to my draggy data my best 60' are all in the 1.7 range, at least the ones I have saved. This is on the street with 35 psi.
I averaged low 1.7s as well with the occasional high 1.6s at the track. Looking at the best W212s compared to W213s on dragtimes and the W212s are actually quicker, low 1.5s compared to low 1.6s. Don’t know if that means anything but it certainly implies that the older trans isn’t any worse.
I averaged low 1.7s as well with the occasional high 1.6s at the track. Looking at the best W212s compared to W213s on dragtimes and the W212s are actually quicker, low 1.5s compared to low 1.6s. Don’t know if that means anything but it certainly implies that the older trans isn’t any worse.
These can't be for the 2014 E63S AWD transmission, not without some form of intervention.
I consistently see 1.7's now, but the one time I saw a 1.6 60' that damn TCU shut me down between 1st and 2nd gear change. The car fell on its face for a couple of seconds. Fortunately I had the logs to prove it.
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Originally Posted by brutus_tx
These can't be for the 2014 E63S AWD transmission, not without some form of intervention.
I consistently see 1.7's now, but the one time I saw a 1.6 60' that damn TCU shut me down between 1st and 2nd gear change. The car fell on its face for a couple of seconds. Fortunately I had the logs to prove it.
I can’t speak for any of them but it does go to show that so far the upgraded 9spd tranny isn’t providing for a better launch. I went through the same issues you are with the random TCU shut downs except that mine usually occurred at the 2-3 shift. I hope someone finds a cure but I’m skeptical at this point.
In an attempt to get back on track, it sounds like your tune adapts well enough but for security and peace of mind you should consider running an ethanol sensor. You might be surprised at the inconsistency of E85.
Last edited by chiromikey; Dec 17, 2019 at 03:47 PM.
I can’t speak for any of them but it does go to show that so far the upgraded 9spd tranny isn’t providing for a better launch. I went through the same issues you are with the random TCU shut downs except that mine usually occurred at the 2-3 shift. I hope someone finds a cure but I’m skeptical at this point.
In an attempt to get back on track, it sounds like your tune adapts well enough but for security and peace of mind you should consider running an ethanol sensor. You might be surprised at the inconsistency of E85.
I took your advice seriously and sampled the last batch of fuel I put in the car, expecting to see a winter blend. The local fuel here still tested at 85%.
I get my fuel from the same service station every time. Ill run a sample on the next fill up as well.
Question I have on tuning... In the Audi world - there are forum members tuning the ZF (I know, different box/tranny) on their own via HP Tuners.. Rather than fork over $2,500 for a TCU tune we don't believe works --- why not spend 60 days living in the HP Tuners forum, learn and tune your own? For $400 and some deep diving in their forum - I bet you could beat it..
Hint: the 2-3 guys on Audi forums turning the ZF are now charging nomiinally for their expertise.. There is a clearly a market here. Just sayin
Awww if it were but that easy. I come from the VAG world as well and the lack of TCU support baffled me too initially. When I dug into it, it became apparent who ever had the torque tables defined held the keys to the kingdom.
I'm risk adverse, which sounds odd coming from me. I'm not willing to go into the platform and start attempting to understand and identify the various torque table variables. The engineers at AMG are the ones who retain that knowledge. Anyone outside AMG will have either spent an inordinate amount of money and broken hardware trying to discern the tables, or they paid for back room access. Neither of these are realistic for me.
I applaud Renntech for offering the TCU tune for this platform here in the USA. In Europe there appear to be a few portals available for TCU tunes. GAD are one of them but they are notoriously bad to deal with.
I'm hopeful someone will step up with a canned tune that can be made available to us. As it stands for the NA market, Renntech appear to be the only show in town. Until an alternative presents itself, they are our only recourse.
The narrative that you just used is the same narrative that the collective started with on the VAG side as well.. "Too big, too complex, don't know where to start"... And then slowly they started to crack the nut.. I'd be surprised if the TCU software is significantly more complex than the ZF platform - it's more about someone (knowledgeable or brave) to take a crack at it. Canned tunes usually suck :-)
Someone should get HP Tuner, get a token and start to learn. The forums for HP are unreal for TCU tunes. SOOOOO much info and knowledge.. I bet it's a shorter putt than we think. Not downplaying how hard it is - but this isn't impossible.
The narrative that you just used is the same narrative that the collective started with on the VAG side as well.. "Too big, too complex, don't know where to start"... And then slowly they started to crack the nut.. I'd be surprised if the TCU software is significantly more complex than the ZF platform - it's more about someone (knowledgeable or brave) to take a crack at it. Canned tunes usually suck :-)
Someone should get HP Tuner, get a token and start to learn. The forums for HP are unreal for TCU tunes. SOOOOO much info and knowledge.. I bet it's a shorter putt than we think. Not downplaying how hard it is - but this isn't impossible.
I would agree that it is not impossible, but it is impractical. The nut has been cracked by the way.
We have a limited number of people who would invest in this software.
For someone to take the time to invest in development as you say to define the torque tables would take an exorbitant amount of time versus the potential financial reward.
If we had access to the table definitions then that would be one thing, but you stand a better chance of finding out the Colonel's Secret Recipe. AMG keep a tight lock on this info.
From what I've discerned, you can get a TCU tune, but the majority on offer come from resellers of the tune. Somewhere in Germany sits a guy with the keys to the kingdom. How he obtained the tables remains a mystery... did he work for AMG? Does he have a buddy there? I don't know.
I do know Renntech seems to be the only local show in town for the US market. Hopefully this changes soon.
I would agree that it is not impossible, but it is impractical. The nut has been cracked by the way.
We have a limited number of people who would invest in this software.
For someone to take the time to invest in development as you say to define the torque tables would take an exorbitant amount of time versus the potential financial reward.
If we had access to the table definitions then that would be one thing, but you stand a better chance of finding out the Colonel's Secret Recipe. AMG keep a tight lock on this info.
From what I've discerned, you can get a TCU tune, but the majority on offer come from resellers of the tune. Somewhere in Germany sits a guy with the keys to the kingdom. How he obtained the tables remains a mystery... did he work for AMG? Does he have a buddy there? I don't know.
I do know Renntech seems to be the only local show in town for the US market. Hopefully this changes soon.
Agree to disagree on the "limited number of people to invest"...
At $2,500 for the current TCU tune? yes... At $500 to help them with their own HPTune set up? I'd venture there are plenty on this forum alone as TCU is the known achilles of the platform.. I know it seems like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing - I'm not. I just have a different perspective that it could be worth someone's time, if for nothing else than personal gain over TCU settings, to take a crack at HP Tuners. It's daunting going in - but once you've been in and understand the architecture it's not the holy grail you have described... Carry on - zero intent to derail this awesome thread.. I'm ready to go stage 1 flex and will report back soon with dyno/draggy and on the road results as well. Thanks for pushing the platform Brutus - healthy banter intended. Moving on!
No worries... healthy banter is appreciated.
I'm just looking at the amount of risk to develop a solution from scratch vs the number of people who would buy it.
We've seen it time and time again on these forums... everyone wants something until its time to buy it, then its crickets.
There has been renewed interest in this platform recently.
Hopefully this with develop into more readily available TCU tunes coming to market.... this time with tangible logs and results.
I've put 3000 miles on the tune since I received it and I can comment on the following:
daily driveability has not been affected, the car responds as it always did, partial throttle etc.
no limp modes or mis-fire events what so ever
the car is still running stock hardware: plugs, air filter etc all stock and in the case of the plugs stock gap.
I have been running anywhere from E20 to E50 in the tank, though typically I'm at E50
my clutch and transmission have been rock solid but I have noticed that the 3rd gear change when the oil is cold isn't like the other gears. Once the transmission oil is up to operating temps it shifts fine. The gear change isn't harsh at all, just the rpms drop a little prematurely in 3rd gear. I'll continue to monitor though I've booked a transmission oil flush and re-adaptation. It may be due one, just as a precaution.
Also, there has been some discussion regarding E85 and regional concentrations of ethanol in the blend, i.e summer blend or winter blend.
I can say with some certainty that the local pumps in Houston are selling E85 with an ethanol content at or near 85%. No winter blend here.
The sample I pulled today showed near enough 84% ethanol by content.
Looking forward to next Friday night at the Quarter Mile. It'll be great to get some repeatable numbers. In addition, I'm going to through some Race Gas on top of the E50 blend after I've run it a couple of times to see if this improves matters any.
Sorry if i write that but that 60-130mph times was very slow.
Our cars here in europe run with GAD software 7.5 - 7.7 seconds 60-130mph. And all that with pump gas and stock hardware.
Sorry if i write that but that 60-130mph times was very slow.
Our cars here in europe run with GAD software 7.5 - 7.7 seconds 60-130mph. And all that with pump gas and stock hardware.
he may have let off the gas after he hit the quarter. No reason to keep gassing. Also gad offers tcu tunes with their tunes don’t they? Which makes a huge impact.
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