Carbontek

The benefits of HHO are easily shown in this article. They were using a small amount of gas, compared to our service. We put out 4-5 liters/minute, while the test rig was closer to .3L/minute. We are also working on scalable solid state HHO delivery devices to be targeted at industrial and fleet applications. Exciting things to come!

zk2004mb

I don't believe a mild chemical reaction in a short period of time can make a night/day difference. At lease not worth the money. Walnut blast seems the only way to go. My M157 currently have 49k. I guess I will do it soon. Anyone know reliable indy shop in North NJ/NYC area?

kevm14

I don't believe it, either. I have seen no evidence that anything short of removing the intake and mechanically removing the build-up is effective. And the two main ways that I have found are either walnut blasting (never done myself) or using a chemical spray and gentle brushing of the valves/ports. So either wet cleaning with a brush or dry cleaning with walnut blasting. We can talk preventative maintenance all day long (i.e. do this or that every oil change) but this does nothing for the 99.99999999% of us who do not have brand new cars.

zk2004mb

Tasos shows a M157 at ~48k miles. The carbon build-up is crazy. I will definitely do the walnut blasting ASAP

Faast

Have we looked into what causes the carbon build up though? Besides being some Inherent engine design fault, these are expensive cars and as they get older and start going through several owners, who knows how the car was driven and maintained?
Regular maintenance,
Grade of gas,
Jumping on it when cold,
Frequent heavy footed driving style
Frequent stop and go traffic,
and lastly but not least
Air fuel ratio on a tuned cars ( if not dyno tuned, how reliable is the remote tune or one tune for all--is)

kevm14

The main theories on stock applications are:

• Excessive PCV oil flow. Remedy: ensure 100% PCV operation. Maybe add preventative centrifuge replacement though I have not yet done so on my M157.
• Short trips and/or "excessive babying" meaning the combustion chambers don't get properly thermally cycled.

Otherwise this is par for the course for ALL direct injected engines which do not also have a port injection system to keep the valves clean (a la Toyota).

With the measures above I think you may be able to push severe intake valve build-up out to higher mileages but all DI engines will eventually need it if they are driven long enough. The operative question, aside from asking if you'd even keep the car long enough for this to become a real problem, is how much build-up is problematic? The main problems are decreased performance (restricted airflow) as well as an increased risk of valve guide damage (which these engines are also somewhat known for).

QuadTurboPrius

Hmmmm- I've seen much worse... but, yeah, walnut blasting seems warranted.

Once I get mine cleaned up I plan on:
- installing a catch can system
- investigating a gas-vapor intake attachment...

I dont know what that would look like yet, but the idea that some minimal gas vapor on the intake would prevent this buildup seems reasonable. Together with a catch can, perhaps it could solve this problem.

kevm14

Personally I think the stock centrifuge, if everything is working properly, does just as good of a job as a catch can, and maybe better.

QuadTurboPrius

Yeah, good point.. I still want to induce some kind of fuel vapor on the intake... not a lot, just a tiny amount of something to replicate what the port injectors do to keep the runners clean. But, keeping some jar of gas in the engine bay that is connected to the low pressure intake tubes is a good way to ask for a fire... so I am still mulling the idea. I don't think much fuel would be required as long as it was just a constant presence... just allow the intakes to breath in a little vapor while pulling in the atmospheric charge.

Yakatak

This was years ago and on a much simpler engine. I had a 1978 SAAB Turbo. I ran water/meth injection so that I could get boost up to about 12 PSI. Had to repair the head at about 30K miles due to a bad head casting. Of course this was not a direct injection system, but when we removed the head, everything was absolutely carbon free...tops of pistons looked brand new, nothing on the back of the valves. This one is anecdotal: A salesman who regularly came by my shop and covered a lot of miles, swore by a system he bought from JC Whitney years before. It used intake vacuum (no pump) to pull air through a water bubbler jar into the intake manifold. Said it kept his piston tops and valves carbon free. If I decide to keep my car much longer, it will definitely install an injection system.

kevm14

Yeah vacuum-based injection of top engine cleaner and lube (think MMO) is a super old trick. Like 50 year or more, for sure.

But, I'd be worried about fouling O2 sensors or the cats. Otherwise, dripping something like MMO into the intake is probably beneficial, provided a chunk doesn't break off and hold a valve open. Or score the cylinder wall...

Ultimately less relevant than starting with clean intake valves. Once clean, something like a GDI spray every oil change may do a lot of good.

graphitegreyamg

There is an M157 catch can available albeit with little forum discussion/results to back it up. If the valves are that nasty I would do the walnut carbon clean/blast and take steps to prevent further or slow down this process.

bentz69

I guess I haven't looked hard enough in the past for a catch can on the m157 but my m156 certainly benefited from one. Didn't even know they had one for the m157. Anybody have first-hand experience with this particular one?

QuadTurboPrius

It's nice to see they exist, but at $650 for a couple of cans, connectors and some hose, I think I'll keep looking and trust my centrifuges .

The strange thing about the buildup on these cars is that neither the dealer nor my indy shop seemed like they did any walnut blasting very often. The dealer rep didn't even know what I was talking about and had to get someone to find out, and the indy shop straight up said they just don't do it very often and it took them a while to get me a quote.

Are there any reports of this actually causing a problem on these engines or is it just gross? Sure, a few grams of goo on the valve will slow it down a little, but (from the video) 3 grams on a 58 gram valve is not a lot. Maybe it gets to that gross-ness level and stops accumulating because of the intake pressures, etc... Something doesn't add up... I'd expect a nearly-all-labor procedure to be something all the shops to be offering as often as possible.

kevm14

As far as I know it's been a thing in the BMW community for over a decade.

QuadTurboPrius

Yeah, I used to be a BMW person... once I got the F10 535 and that POS needed walnut blasting, a water pump and fuel pumps all at about 60k, I swore them off. I would not surprise me that they just F'd up the intake and PCV system through sheer cheapness and made it worse than it had to be.

bentz69

Amg tax like usual. Considering the m156 weistec catch can is now priced at 699 for one can, I suppose 650 for two cans, similar length of tubing and twice as many fittings as the weistec m156 setup is "fair". The weistec can was excellent quality though. Not sure about this company unless someone here has it and can review it

go team

Ya’ll must not build hoses very much… Whenever I go to the parts store PTFE hoses are more expensive than pushlok hoses. 63 use PTFE (higher quality and e85 rated) and Weistec M156 catch can uses pushlok only.

QuadTurboPrius

Do these cans include 100 feet of that hose? Seems like you can find it for $3 to $6 per foot... so, maybe ~1-3% of the final cost here. It really does just look like AMG tax. Sure - low volume producers have to have larger margins... but I'm guessing they just want to make $400 to $500 per set on those.

go team

Lol how much do you think it costs to mill a solid billet of aluminum block for housings, with AN ports as one piece. Not to mention the tooling plus the baffles and the work involved.

I can make a can out of a pepsi can and charge the AMG tax but this is using the same internal workings thats been proven in the M156 crowd… go make an effective can for $100.

here is a diy kit for fittings and hose only Ptfe $228 already! Plus two catch cans which on amazon you can find a hollow one with no baffles for $80 and it looks good. Example And I DID say it’s hollow! You also need two so thats already $400 with tax… for a **** no name can with no “amg tax”. Literally made from pipes!

You need to look at the real math as a whole not 100 feet of hose.Oh and you need to go to ace hardware to make a bracket. Which the kit already includes made specifically to our cars… so what, we need $$ for steel from ace hardware? And tools to mount it cleanly?

Then bend it and drill it and cut it and shape it… yeah amg tax… so they make $100 for every set I guess?

If the two costs $700 and Weistec costs $500 for a puny one I wonder who’s doing the taxing?

QuadTurboPrius

You've apparently never done any volume sourcing from places like China. Sure, you can retail all the hose and connections and cans and spend many hundreds or thousands. Heck - buy a milling machine, quarry the bauxite, refine the aluminum and mill out some cans/brackets, plant rubber trees and make the gaskets yourself... these cans could cost millions!

Or, you could get the raw parts in low-to-mid volume from international suppliers for $100 to $200 per set, box and drop ship for probably $200 tops all-in.

kevm14

Both made good points.

Are they charging $699 for 100% in-house, American made parts made with US materials? Maybe this is acceptable given the very low volumes.

Are they charging $200 for fully outsourced items that they simply box and ship? This may also be acceptable.

Are they charging $699 for a fully outsourced item? This is NOT acceptable.

Do we know?

go team

Ive been burned by murica made parts before. Quality is quality but not that it matters as per social media…

go team

oh so its cheaper to buy a machine shop
… what point are you trying to make? Drop shipping is different. It is a parts reseller… go on and try organizing to make $200 parts. Ill be the first to buy it.

Your ideas are so erratic and just noise at this point. Lots of unvalidated info you don’t even bother fact checking

Cifdig

Exactly why I don't bother to offer the catch can set I made for my personal car. The setups you see, are not 100% correct. They tap off the inlet hose and call it a day, but will still find a **** ton of oil inside the intake manifold. The main issue is the pcv unit on the passenger side. Even when brand new full functional, the blow by oil condensation works it's way passed the diagram, passed the check valve and pukes oil into your intake. You cannot use a cheap CAN as it has to be able to handle boost pressure because in the correct placement the can will see positive pressure as well as negative. The materials to install these cans properly cost me over $600 after i got done with all the AN fittings braided ptfe hoses on a dual can set up . Even when buying them wholesale which is just a small percentage off . There's no way I'm gonna spend thousands of dollars to buy the material much cheaper in bulk just to sit on a bunch of cans for a platform that doesn't buy many parts, just to make the prices cheap enough to make others happy . I assure you this . If anyone thinks they can just tap into the inlet hose source and call it a day , your wrong. There's a reason these big companies never made a catch can setup . It's too difficult and would cost money people don't want to spend just for cans . And I completely understand . I couldn't believe how much everything cost me after I figured how to tap into this engine pcv system the right way . Also 2 custom adapters need to be made . Those adapters needed to be made from a block of aluminum . I won't even say what I had to pay . My point is not to disagree with anyone or take sides . My point is it's not just cut paste and dry for this engine. I've been there and done it all .