Anyone got objective before:after numbers for their choice of tune?
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From: WA
2018 AMG E63S
Anyone got objective before:after numbers for their choice of tune?
Per the subject, I was wondering if folks had any useful data on their own cars before and after tuning?
It's about 45F here so horrible conditions but my Dragy GPS device (in which I have a good amount of faith based on live comparisons to Vbox and actual dragstrip time slips) recorded a 3.18s 0-60 using launch control. My ECU is enroute from Euro Charged in TX and will go back in the car sometime tomorrow at which point I'll try again.
Sadly, I have no pre-tune 1/4 mile times because I'm too impatient.
It's about 45F here so horrible conditions but my Dragy GPS device (in which I have a good amount of faith based on live comparisons to Vbox and actual dragstrip time slips) recorded a 3.18s 0-60 using launch control. My ECU is enroute from Euro Charged in TX and will go back in the car sometime tomorrow at which point I'll try again.
Sadly, I have no pre-tune 1/4 mile times because I'm too impatient.
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More importantly, can the dealer diagnostic tools tell if a car has been tuned? If its done on the bench and flashed directly to the chip it would be hard for them to determine something has been done. Thoughts?
Im almost at 1K miles and intend to run the car to see where it is pre-tune within the next few weeks.
Im almost at 1K miles and intend to run the car to see where it is pre-tune within the next few weeks.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2018
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From: WA
2018 AMG E63S
More importantly, can the dealer diagnostic tools tell if a car has been tuned? If its done on the bench and flashed directly to the chip it would be hard for them to determine something has been done. Thoughts?
Im almost at 1K miles and intend to run the car to see where it is pre-tune within the next few weeks.
Im almost at 1K miles and intend to run the car to see where it is pre-tune within the next few weeks.
That said and to your question on detectability: I design security software for a living, if I want to know if it's been modified, there's no reasonable way for anyone to stop me (and I stress reasonable since "Mission Impossible" or hypothetical methods always exist). The question then is, do MB/AMG care? For the most part, BMW don't. In Audi's case, oh hell ya--they care... too much I think but that's their business model. According to my SA, MB is somewhere in the middle. I'm not really sure what to do with that information other than ignore it since I bought into the product knowing I'm going to tune it... wow, what a fundamentally useless response from me
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In my previous life I flashed thousands of EPROM's in order to generate car keys. I utilized dumps from virgin ECU's in order to duplicate the process that the new car went through as it went down the assembly line. This was virtually undetectable with available technology at the time (10-15 years ago). I understand the risks of tuning but its a rational question, can MBZ actually tell if an ECU has been bench flashed?
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2018
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From: WA
2018 AMG E63S
In my previous life I flashed thousands of EPROM's in order to generate car keys. I utilized dumps from virgin ECU's in order to duplicate the process that the new car went through as it went down the assembly line. This was virtually undetectable with available technology at the time (10-15 years ago). I understand the risks of tuning but its a rational question, can MBZ actually tell if an ECU has been bench flashed?
Today, we use various "measurements" (hashes of the binary and the like) that are extended into a variety of different TPM (trusted platform modules... or hardware designed to create a root of trust) registers (PCRs). The TPM registers record the chain of events created by specific boot paths and the binaries that comprise that particular chain of events. We use code-signing certificates to generate white- and black-listed signatures of known software/firmware/TPM vendors (DB and DBX) to measure and attest to healthy firmware and the handoff from that healthy firmware to the OS loader. We ensure that the preceding binary in an OS' boot-chain is hard-coded with either a hash of the next trusted binary or, more commonly, the code-signing cert and file-metadata of the next binary in sequence. What you're talking about is prehistoric by today's standards--if I want to detect that you've modified a given OS' boot path, short of you compromising the firmware or the TPM or the CPU, it's not reasonable to prevent me from doing so. That's my only point here...
Last edited by limeypride; Mar 20, 2018 at 11:01 PM.
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I have been told if MB wants to look deeper into if ECU was tuned, they could still trace it by running a CVN (Calibration Verification Number) check in the ECU to determine if anything has been changed andIt would not be detected thru the OBD port
In my previous life I flashed thousands of EPROM's in order to generate car keys. I utilized dumps from virgin ECU's in order to duplicate the process that the new car went through as it went down the assembly line. This was virtually undetectable with available technology at the time (10-15 years ago). I understand the risks of tuning but its a rational question, can MBZ actually tell if an ECU has been bench flashed?
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Originally Posted by 2020
This is precisely the reason why I am getting my tune thru my dealer. Costs a little more but assures me at least I have my dealer on my side.
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E63
Got my tune (w212) from my dealer as well. Now all warranty work over $1000 require a regional AMG guy's approval. Not really a big deal since they always approved anything I needed but always takes a few additional days to get any warranty work done. Car has been solid either way anyway.
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2018 AMG E63S
What tunes are available through your dealer?
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2018 E63S
I'm not so sure there's any relationship between your dealer doing the work and their willingness to perform warranty repairs--why would they care; warranty work is money in their pocket. I don't know what tunes are available through any particular MB dealership but, if I'm going to tune the car, my choice will be based on various criteria but I wouldn't limit myself based on what my local dealer can do. Perhaps I'm in the minority here but the whole point of me tuning the car is to make it as fast as I possibly can with, of course, some semblance of "not breaking it while doing so" thrown into the mix.
What tunes are available through your dealer?
What tunes are available through your dealer?
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W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, Taycan GTS Sport Turismo, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars
Any aftermarket tune will automatically void the factory warranty the moment it is installed, and it is most certainly detectable even if you reflash the ECU back to stock. At the dealer level - which has absolutely nothing to do with Mercedes - some dealers may offer aftermarket tunes by companies like Renntech or Brabus (or Dinan if you drive a BMW), which come with a warranty of their own when installed on a new vehicle by an authorized dealer. The Mercedes warranty becomes null and void, but the Renntech / Brabus warranty takes over for what would have been the the duration of the Mercedes warranty. That is why ECU tunes by Renntech / Brabus / Dinan cost three times as much as the competition - the money for the engines that do suffer a breakdown of some description during the warranty period has to come from somewhere.
P.S. And no, Magnusson-Moss does not apply to damage caused by an aftermarket ECU tune. The tune by definition causes the engine to operate outside of the design parameters imposed by the manufacturer. It has been tried.
P.S. And no, Magnusson-Moss does not apply to damage caused by an aftermarket ECU tune. The tune by definition causes the engine to operate outside of the design parameters imposed by the manufacturer. It has been tried.
Last edited by Diabolis; Mar 24, 2018 at 02:00 AM.
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Originally Posted by Diabolis
Any aftermarket tune will automatically void the factory warranty the moment it is installed, and it is most certainly detectable even if you reflash the ECU back to stock. At the dealer level - which has absolutely nothing to do with Mercedes - some dealers may offer aftermarket tunes by companies like Renntech or Brabus (or Dinan if you drive a BMW), which come with a warranty of their own when installed on a new vehicle by an authorized dealer. The Mercedes warranty becomes null and void, but the Renntech / Brabus warranty takes over for what would have been the the duration of the Mercedes warranty. That is why ECU tunes by Renntech / Brabus / Dinan cost three times as much as the competition - the money for the engines that do suffer a breakdown of some description during the warranty period has to come from somewhere.
P.S. And no, Magnusson-Moss does not apply to damage caused by an aftermarket ECU tune. The tune by definition causes the engine to operate outside of the design parameters imposed by the manufacturer. It has been tried.
P.S. And no, Magnusson-Moss does not apply to damage caused by an aftermarket ECU tune. The tune by definition causes the engine to operate outside of the design parameters imposed by the manufacturer. It has been tried.
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R Nine T
indeed, that would be a first.
Im curious about your previous experience with MM act. Was their litigation?
I can can confirm from a local dealer that Car will in fact be flagged if tune is done at dealer. Also, the ECU is physically opened up and it leaves evidence. Either way, there are can bus locations outside ECU that will store operating parameters of engine.
Im curious about your previous experience with MM act. Was their litigation?
I can can confirm from a local dealer that Car will in fact be flagged if tune is done at dealer. Also, the ECU is physically opened up and it leaves evidence. Either way, there are can bus locations outside ECU that will store operating parameters of engine.
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W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, Taycan GTS Sport Turismo, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars
Dinan: https://www.dinancars.com/warranty/
Under "CARS COVERED BY THE ORIGINAL VEHICLE MANUFACTURER’S NEW CAR LIMITED WARRANTY": ".. The Authorized Dinan Dealer will, without charge for parts or labor, repair or replace the defective Dinan component(s), as well as any original vehicle manufacturer’s component(s) that may have been directly affected by a Dinan component"
Brabus: http://www.g-center.nl/millenaar/dow...s-warranty.pdf
Relevant paragraph is highlighted in yellow. Their translation from German is not first-rate, but it definitely covers damage to other components, not just the Brabus parts.
Can't find Renntech with a quick Google search, but it exists and is very similar to the other two. Google is your friend.
I can personally attest that either family members or close friends / associates have indeed had engine work done or completely replaced and paid for by all three companies (Brabus was overseas).
Under "CARS COVERED BY THE ORIGINAL VEHICLE MANUFACTURER’S NEW CAR LIMITED WARRANTY": ".. The Authorized Dinan Dealer will, without charge for parts or labor, repair or replace the defective Dinan component(s), as well as any original vehicle manufacturer’s component(s) that may have been directly affected by a Dinan component"
Brabus: http://www.g-center.nl/millenaar/dow...s-warranty.pdf
Relevant paragraph is highlighted in yellow. Their translation from German is not first-rate, but it definitely covers damage to other components, not just the Brabus parts.
Can't find Renntech with a quick Google search, but it exists and is very similar to the other two. Google is your friend.
I can personally attest that either family members or close friends / associates have indeed had engine work done or completely replaced and paid for by all three companies (Brabus was overseas).
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W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, Taycan GTS Sport Turismo, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars
Absolutely - the factory warranty is in fact null and void. If the car dealer is an authorized Renntech / Brabus / Dinan dealer who installed the ECU tune on the car when they sold it to you, they simply submit the bill for whatever work they have had to do under said warranty to the ECU tuning company instead of Mercedes.
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STaSIS does exactly the same with Audi. http://www.stasisengineering.com/sit...20JH101613.pdf
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Absolutely - the factory warranty is in fact null and void. If the car dealer is an authorized Renntech / Brabus / Dinan dealer who installed the ECU tune on the car when they sold it to you, they simply submit the bill for whatever work they have had to do under said warranty to the ECU tuning company instead of Mercedes.
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From: Venice Florida
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I don't really get why it's worth the risk of trashing ones warrantee for a little extra speed. The car seems plenty fast enough as it is, quite a bit faster than my 212 ever was.
