coolcamden

I have not had a chance to test drive a CL600 or other similar beasts. There is not 1 available in the SF bay area. There are 2 in Texas that I am considering, but when a friend who is a forum member who owns a 55 test drove it today he found the CL600 to be slow and unresponsive from stop to around 2000 rpms. Is this normal on the V12 or is he just used to his 55 response?

Or this particular car is a dud?

HLG600

Did your friend test drive a 600 with the 5.5 Litre BiTurbo motor (2003+) or one with the N/A 5.8 Litre motor (2001-2002)? Since the BiTurbo makes peak torque at a mere 1800 RPMs, it should pull very hard from that point.

DFW01E55

It was an '05 and it had a significantly slower throttle response (defined as car movement after applying gas) than my '03 CL55.

Would anyone who has driven both cars offer their insight?

I'm not sure it even matters if it's a CL or not. The warehouse guy commented that all the MB V-12's felt like the one we were testing.

BlownV8

The turbocharged cars do not have that instant throttle response as compared to the supercharged models. However, when you are going, the turbos are hard to beat. Not to mention, the 600/65 bi-turbo motors are the easiest to modify for huge gains.

AsianML

Must be feeling the turbo lag.

DFW01E55

Understood, but does it feel dramatically different?
I mean almost like the parking brake is dragging?

Vic55

My cars are a little different the ones you mentioned but there is barely a difference at launch between my E55 and CL65. Both are modded though with stage 2 on the 55 and a chip on the 65- I dont feel that sluggish sensation at all in the 65. There must be something wrong with the car IMO.

BlownV8

There is a difference but it should not feel like a brake is dragging. That is not normal. If your current dealer does not fix the issue, take it elsewhere but don't give-up till that "brake dragging feeling" is gone.

///MB

I have driven a 2005 SL55 and our 2007 S600. I do think the S600 feels heavier. The throttle response does feel quite different than the SL55. That being said, I raced my buddy in his SL55 several times, and to 60 or 70mph we were neck and neck every time. Also, we swapped cars to make sure it wasn't the driver. hehe. Another thing I noticed is that the resistance of the accelerator is a lot higher on our 2007 S than it was on our last 2001 S and the SL55 I drove. I'm not sure how much that contributes to the "feeling" of the car being sluggish.

But, to answer your question if the V12tt is slugglish, it's definately not. As soon as you give it gas, it takes off. It basically instantly jumps to at least 2000rpm when you have full torque, so there's no turbo lag.

Perhaps there was something wrong with the one your friend drove. :-p

DFW01E55

Thanks for the responses.
I'll try another 600 for comparison.

mikracer

You also might want to make sure that the tranny was in S mode and not in C mode.

BiTurboAmg

Vic,

What chip did you use on your cl65 and was the difference as night and day as the k2 or stage two on a 55 motor?

DFW01E55

Tried all 3 settings, no major difference.
Drove another 600 and there was a definite difference between the low speed launch on the cars.

whoover

S mode starts in first gear; C mode starts in second. If they didn't feel different, something is very wrong. It sounds like you're always starting in second. Perhaps the TCU is screwed up.

DFW01E55

What I said was no major difference. This not a race launch, just an easy pull away from a traffic light launch. Neither 600 launched the same as my 55.

derrick_lui

I know what you are talking about...I test drove both 2003 cl600 and a 2003 s600....both feels a bit sluggish from initial rpm to 2000...or was it 1800rpm...its different from the kompressor engines with instant throttle when I drove my gf's 05 e55 and my c32. I believe its the turbo lag on the 600s despite even with two turbos...but come on ...do you always drive below 1800 rpm..its kinda hard to keep it below 1800rpm when cruising..and also u don't need that much hp when parking =0...nevertheless ...the 600's twin turbos are still very intoxicating and if u accelerate normally...u won't feel the initial sluggish at all....

MarkoCL65

Yes it does because the TTV12's have a looser torque converter and it feels as if the transmission is slipping until you get moving.

DFW01E55

Thanks, that would explain it.

JBrady

Seems as someone addressed this before as programming. The 600 being the top model (that is not AMG) it is likely to be purchased by many for prestige that may not appreciate or even ever use the power. This demographic would prize smoothness over crisp throttle response and considering the massive power of the engine MB probably reduced the throttle response for these driving conditions... to avoid unexpected acceleration!

The AMG buyer would be different and expect faster response. Seems the AMG65 owners have no such complaint. Seems that cars with modified ECU's do not have a problem either.

Stephen04E55

I currently own an '03 S600 and it definitely feels different from the start due to a looser torque converter. The E55 feels like instant throttle response in comparison. Once you get used to the feel of the V12 TT cars you only have to push the gas a little further to get the throttle response feeling you are used to. Once you step back in to a car with a "tight" torque converter you will snap your neck a few times until you get your right foot dialed back.

mclarenm8d

Thanks for providing this info.

Please, everyone, think through the definition of a loose and tight torque convertor.

The flash stall on a 55K is ~2600 - right at the start of the torque peak. The 55K torque convertor is criminally loose ... obscenely loose. I state this as somewhat of a warning to those of us over 50K miles.

///MB just has indicated above that the flash of the 600 is ~2000 - right at the torque peak.

I've driven an SL600, it definitely has a tighter torque convertor than a 55K. By a huge margin.

The 55K's snap because they have a looser torque convertor ... all things being equal, a looser torque convertor has more torque mutliplication.

If the 55K torque convertor was put in a 600, the lock up clutch in the torque convertor would burn out in probably 2000 miles. The 600 would flash to a stall speed of easily 3000 RPM at roll-on and there would be a delta RPM at the lock up clutch engagement of easily over 2000 RPM.

I will throw out there that a lock up clutch that is sticking (which does happen on our MB's) will make the car dog off the line.

Kens-E55

Vic:
I'm seriously looking @ a CL65 but am very satisfied with the performance of my E55. (11.67@ 123) As far as straightline performance comparisons - can you give a few qualities of each car. I realize the 65 is built to a higher quality - I'm more interested in the "driving experience".
Your input appreciated. Thanks

whoover

You'll find the stock 65 a little faster than that but the numbers are almost irrelevant to the comparison. The power delivery is so smooth and the torque curve is so flat that the driving experience is totally different. You might find it too drama-free for your taste, or you could find yourself ruined for anything else. Of course, reflash the ECU and you've made another quantum leap.

I also find the traction much better in my S65 than E55s or even my older S55. They've made incremental improvements to the setup over the years (mine is a W220) that really help with launch. A little bit of restraint in first is all you need in most situations. The newer AMG S transmission program (upshift at redline) is great. Downshift to 1 at idle (one tap) and once you're rolling just floor it. The transmission takes care of the shifting and the tires stick. No drama.

The only negative WRT an E55 (or especially an E63) is handling. While this big car is more agile than it has any right to be, it's impossible to have that heavy an engine in the front and hide the resulting understeer.

StealthAuto

Vic runs Powerchip software in his 65

bentleyboy

Not sure how to describe this but my 65 in slow moving traffic (25 mph) is a constant up and down shift with resultant snatching ..feels like drive shaft coupling split but have checked both front and rear. Could this be a problem with the centre grooved ball coupling or perhaps the transmission ECU ? local AMG tech reckons it's the rear subframe front mounts need replacing but I checked them with a 24 inch pry bar and there's barely 2 mm movement, certainly don't appear to be shot. One ***** told me I need a new diff ...at 44000 miles? I don't think so !
I'm thinking maybe the torque converter is backing off pressure and then the gears are changing up as its changing down.
Hard to describe but it's like a 1960s pickup with too much load carried....kind of jerky but obviously only at low speeds.

Any ideas guys?