Skylaw

The post on the MOST version menus on COMAND (referenced in my 5/26 post) is at https://mbworld.org/forums/audio-electronics/195743-dension-gateway-500-most-o-menus-comand.html

murman

Understood; thanx!

travis_s

Can someone provide some details on how you navigate to a playlist, album, or song on a d2b version? I'm thinking of installing in my 2003 C32, but I'd like to know if it is possible to find a particular song via COMAND screen if, as is posted above, song titles don't come through on the d2b version... do album/artist/playlist names come through?

Skylaw

Please disregard my earlier reference to the old Ice>Link Plus at http://www.benzworld.org/tech.html?id=330; once you are in the browser function for songs, the D2B version works similarly to the information in that post (except the information is displayed on COMAND or the radio, and not the instrument cluster). However, the Gateway 500 adds a browser function that also lets you navigate by album or artist.

You can download the user manual for the D2b version of the Gateway 500 from the Dension site at http://www.dension.com/download_icelink.htm. It explains the menus. You would use the browser function to navigate. Song titles are not displayed; only track numbers. I believe this is also true once you have entered an album or an artist selection.

However, all of the information as to song title, album, and artist are displayed on the iPod. In addition, if the displays in COMAND don't provide enough flexibility, you can choose to control selections through the iPod itself by selecting the iPod UI (user interface).

The one thing to remember is that some choices are programmed by the Fast Forward button. On my COMAND, there is no button labeled "Fast Forward" or ">>." It is done by pushing and holding "+Seek" for two seconds. Not too intuitive. On the COMAND 2.5 D2B units, I believe it's done by pushing the ">|" button and holding for two seconds. Check your COMAND or radio manual to avoid real frustration. If you don't still have your COMAND manual, they are available for download on Paul Dick's website at http://home.earthlink.net/~phdwebsite/comand_manual.htm.

DrBob

Handyovi and Skylaw:

Does the CD player built in to your comand still work when the GW500 is activated? I know the CDC won't work, but my comand (2003 e class with a retrofitted comand from a 04 or 05) won't recognize a disc in the integrated drive either, unless I flip the button on the GW500 to bypass it, and restart the MOST bus.

Also, how can one tell that the +paging option, when selected with the ff button is actually selected?

And finally, did you switch over to the "text" option instead of "+paging" when you upgraded to the 2.02 firmware? The instructions "seem" to indicate that this should be done.

Thanks in advance

Skylaw

DrBob,

I have a DVD/CD player combo in my '05 COMAND, located behind the screen. It is a MOST bus unit. I am able to select it via the "Audio" button and "CD" soft key in COMAND, with the iPod in place and the GW 500 set to iPod - and can switch back to the iPod by selecting "CDC." It has not been necessary to restart the COMAND to reset the fiber optic bus when making the change in either direction.

Your '03 E-Class also had MOST fiber optics, so I am certain a MOST COMAND was installed; however, your COMAND may have differences from mine. The MOST units are text capable, while the D2B units are not.

I did indeed set the "+paging" option by pressing and holding "SEEK+" until the screen blinked and the setting "took." I did this both on the initial FW 1.05 and again with 2.02. You get to the menu by rapidly moving the mode selector switch up & down rapidly (start in iPod mode, then 3 times back & forth ending on the sixth repositioning in the iPod mode).

The biggest immediate indication I had was when the screen blinked off then on as I held "SEEK+". The name of the song playing (originally a track #) then displayed in text. However, track numbers appeared for subsequent songs when I scrolled, until I shut the car down, waited about 30 seconds, and restarted. Then all song titles displayed in text upon scrolling (3 at a time). If that happens, you know the setting was made. Once it "takes" you should not have to reset it again (possibly until the next firmware update).

In FW 1.05, the "+paging" would partially take - it would not hold - if I only held "SEEK+" for about 2 seconds. I'd get a song title in text, but subsequent songs (simply playing next, or scrolling) would show only track numbers. You may have to hold the "SEEK+" button in for much longer than 2 seconds to get it to set. I held the button until the screen blinked when loading 2.02, and it has worked fine since.

I am guessing that you installed a MOST version GW 500; if your COMAND is text capable (I believe all of the MOST COMANDS are), those steps should get you text.

I found that firmware 2.02 makes using the unit MUCH easier and more logical than before. While I'd like to have song titles display on the instrument cluster as well, using COMAND only is easy.

PS - Where are you located? One of our favorite people, Bob Espinosa, is the Veterinarian we have gone to for years in Tampa, and of course calls himself "Dr. Bob" - as does everyone else. A shot in the dark, but ...

Ted Baldwin

............Just did the GW 500 installation on my 2000 CLK32. It works as advertised. The problem is not the D2B, it is that older Mercedes benz radios and Comand units do not have CDtext capability and as a result the text does not show up on your comand but shows up on your IPOD. It is bit incovenient especially if your IPod is in your glove box or somewhere hidden. One trick is to create playlists number 1 to 5 and used CD selection 1 to 5 to select the respective play using your steering wheel controls or comand button. You can then switch songs by direct input from on the comand button from 1 to 99 or go up and down by using steering wheel controls. My take is that with the D2B system, you can comfortably control 495 songs on your IPOD using your factory stereo. Beyond that, it gets a bit confusing.

Ted

DrBob

Skylaw,

No animals (well, not most days anyway ;-) , just eyeballs. I'm an optometrist in Indianapolis.

Thanks for the confirm on the +paging. I think I'm okay there, now.

My comand is indeed a MOST bus unit. The e class comand has the cd/dvd drive built right into the comand-- there is a slot immediately above the screen. If the GW500 switch is not on bypass, I can insert a disc, and the dvd/cd logo comes up on a blank screen for some 15 seconds or so, then blank. The CD soft button is greyed out, and I cannot even eject the disc! If I then shut the comand system down, and turn the car off for a little while with the bypass switch activated on the GW500 aux interface, then I can play the cd/dvd and eject it as usual. I was willing to accept the compromise of not being able to use the CD changer without a most ring reset, but this is a real pain. It "seems" like the gw500 is telling the comand that the cdc is actively playing a disk, and it won't let go. Now, I would be VERY interested in also hearing from someone who has an e--class comand, to see whether this behavior is particular to the e class, OR whether there is something odd about my particular comand unit.

I have noticed that if I disconnect all sources from the GW 500, it automatically switches over to AUX, and the counter on the bottom of the comand screen is running. I wonder if there is a way to have the GW500 have no sources operating. In other words, turn it off completely.

Bob

rob13572468

you may only need to move the gw500 to a different position in the most ring. the issue is that the command unit with the integrated cd slot looks very much like a cd changer on the most ring. the gw500 is supposed to be placed so that it is just before the CDC in the most ring (e.g. gw output --> CDC input). if your GW unit is installed behind the HU than that is likely the reason why it is disabling the command CD slot when it shouldnt be.

finally to answer your question there is no way to simply "turn off" the gateway unit (or any most unit). all most devices act as repeaters, meaning that they must have power to to allow the most ring to work. furthermore, all devices establish their presence in the most ring on power up and are expected to stay in the ring or an error is assumed. this is the reason behind having to turn off the car and wait when switching to/from bypass mode.

DrBob

rob13572468:

First of all, thank you for helping with this info.

I just went out to the car to double check the install of the GW500. It is indeed installed before the CDC on the ring. I checked this both with the small arrows on the fiber optic connector, and by noticing that there is a periodic lighting of the output side of the CDC (not the side that the GW500 is connected to.) I looked up the MOST documentation for my car on the Mercedes WIS system, and it shows the following ring configuration for a 03 up E class: Head unit (comand or Audio 50)->AGW (audio gateway in the trunk)->Nav drive unit (not present in my car) ->telephone unit -> handsfree unit -> CD changer -> back to the head unit. So, my GW500 is installed before both the CD changer and then, the head unit before we get to the audio gateway on my ring. Does this config fit with your understanding of how the system should work?

As far as shutting the GW500 unit down, it does make sense that the GW500 can't be shut off completely as part of the serial ring, but it seems that it would help if it didn't default to showing the aux input as active instead of no_ipod, or no_usb, as it does for those input sources? I'm way out of my league here in understanding how this works, though.

Any further help/ thoughts would be very much appreciated.
Bob

DrBob

Rob

Oops, this is the correct config of my MOST ring: Head unit -> GW500 -> Cd changer -> hands free unit -> telephone -> nav (not present in my car) -> audio gateway -> back to the head unit. I had the direction backwards in my previous post, but the GW500 is still just before the cd changer in the ring. Do you think it would be better to put it elsewhere?

Bob

rob13572468

unfortunately if the gw unit is in the correct position then its a firmware bug that is causing the problem... this is going to be a case for the developers at dension to look at and see if the problem can be corrected. the funny thing is that ive installed the gw500 in an e-class but with the audio 50 and it did not have this particular problem. it may be a simple change is all thats needed.

on the subject of shutting off, yes they could theoretically set the unit to default to passthru when the ipod is not plugged in but the issue is that it wouldnt fix the current problem since the most ring would need to restart to bring the main cd back online.

DrBob

The Dension developers are working on troubleshooting this. I still wonder: Has anyone out there installed one of these on an e class (211) with a comand unit and a cd changer, and had it work properly?

If so, could we compare setups?

Thanks, Bob

hpilot

I have a '2000 E-Class with Comand, and I just installed the Gateway 500 D2B. Although it sort of works, I am very disappointed that all the cool features do not work as advertised. I have the latest 2.0 Firmware and the latest manuals from the Dension web site, but NOTHING works like in the manual. After several hours of trial and error, I figured out that to change play lists you have to hit the #1 CD button, and then change the track number to the sequential number of the play list on the iPod. For Artist, you use CD 2, and for Album you use CD 3. I cannot enter the setup menu at all, nor can I control the iPod from the iPod itself. I cannot read any text at all on the Comand screen, only the numerical Track Number. I took out the CD Changer, but the Mode switch does not seem to do anything. Basically nothing works as in the manual. I have a support call into Enfig, but the support guy was not in today. They answered their phone and seemed to be anxious to help. I will call them back next week. If I can't get the text to work, it is still useful the way it is, but I sure was looking forward to using the text function on the screen.

BTW, I want to sell the CD Changer if anyone wants it.

Skylaw

hpilot, you should be able to do some of the things you indicate you cannot. One thing is pretty plain in the Dension User Manuals, as well as on some of the vendors sites and in my own writeups on the Gateway 500 (post #29 above as well as in the separate string on menus): D2B COMANDS will not display song titles. Those COMANDs are not text capable.

Dension has made several firmware changes lately, and has combined the MOST and D2B version user manuals. The D2B portion from 6/25/07 is below; I have supplemented it with text in parentheses, and corrected some spelling in the original:

If your car does not support text, then instead of a Menu, you can select a source by setting a Track# on Disc6. When you select Disc6, the Track# will indicate the currently active source. This may take a few seconds. Change the Track# and press FF (in COMAND 2.0, hold in the ">|" button for at least 2 seconds for FF) to select a new source device.

This table indicates the Track# assignment to the possible sources (I have had to revise the table format so it would display properly; the numbers following the function being selected are the button [track] numbers to select):

First select Disc #6; then:
AUX: #1
iPod User Interface: #2
iPod Gateway Interface: #3
USB: #4
Bluetooth Audio: #5
Bluetooth Hands Free: #6
Reserved: #7
PND: #8

For example, you listen iPod in Gateway interface mode and you want to select Aux input as source:
• Press Disc 6 (or select it with +/- Disc buttons).
• Track3 will be displayed on the Radio.
• Press Back Track button 2 times or set Track1 with the jog wheel.
• Press FF (or a dedicated Select button on some Radios)[NOTE: >| for 2 seconds on COMAND 2.0]
The other functionalities are independent from the text capability. They are same as described above, however you will not see text guidance, nor song information. Unfortunately you have to memorize the Disc and Track numbers related to the important functions.

For the non-text applications the best way to select content is:
• Use iPod User Interface mode (Disc6/Track2) or
• Set the iPod before connecting it in Gateway User Interface mode
• Organize Playlists (both on iPod and USB)
• Use SCAN Playlist, Artist, Album mode (Disc1-2-3) and find the music by using Next/Back track buttons

Those are the menu instructions provided for D2B. In the iPod Gateway UI, controls on the iPod are not functional. In the iPod UI, controls on the iPod are functional. You may find it easier to control things using the iPod UI. Your steering wheel controls should still provide additional control when in the iPod UI, as described for the MOST units in the user guide (http://www.dension.com/download_icelink.htm).

hpilot

Skylaw,

Thank you so much for the prompt response. You pretty much confirm what I found out by trial and error, however I did not know how to select the various input sources. I tried what you said about selecting Disc #6 and using the various track numbers and it worked fine except for the part about pushing FF - that did not work. To get FF on my Comand System, you have to hold down the Next Track Button for about 2 seconds. That did not work, but I found that if I just hit the Next Track Button without going into the FF mode it worked just fine!

I am guessing that there is no way to set up some of the other options like the various charging modes. Also, what does PND mean in Track #8?

One thing that really bugs me is that I cannot set up the Gateway to play random tracks. I can do it in the Comand head unit by setting in Track Mix in the CD settings menu, but if you hit the Next Track Button it goes out of the random mode. To go to the next track in the random Que you have to hit * and the next track number. This is awkward when driving because it is a two step process and you have to read what the current track number is in order to select a track number one number higher than the current one.

All in all, even though I am disappointed that text cannot be displayed on my unit, I am very happy with it. I have made a large number of play lists and put them on a reference card that I refer to.

Thanks again for the help...

P.S. I just found a big problem, my Navigation System does not work. When I select it, it tells me to put a nav disc in, but it is. The eject button does not work either! Oh boy...

Skylaw

hpilot,

I'll answer what I can - sorry it's not complete.

The charging time selection option was deleted in Firmware 2.0x; several of us have requested that it be restored. The default setting is to charge while the head unit is on. However, in FW 1.0x the feature was keeping the fiber optics on in Audis and discharging the car's battery when set to the +2 option (that's in one of the FW revision notes).

Thanks for letting us know about the FF not being required. That is contrary to the written instructions, so it is important to know.

PND means "Portable Navigation Device" - a future expansion option. As I understand it, the audio portion of a PND will be able to be treated as built-in - i.e., other audio will be muted while nav instructions are being provided.

It may be necessary to enable random tracks on your iPod to get the random track function through the Gateway 500. Set that, and try it with the Gateway UI. If it can't be set in the Gateway UI, try using the iPod UI and set the iPod to random track. That will be much less distracting while driving.

You're right about "big problem" regarding the nav. I suggest that your first step is to be absolutely certain you have inserted the Gateway 500 into the proper place in the fiber optic ring. Check this first be seeing if the nav system will work when you have the GW500 turned off (i.e., have reactivated the CD changer). I note that you said you are offering your CDC for sale - it is possible something is disturbed in the fiber optic loop. It is not necessary to remove the CDC.

If the nav unit works with the GW 500 out of the loop, then the problem is in your fiber optic connections.

isamu

Good post Nick. I too will be picking up AUX adapter for my 2001 E-430. You guys mentioned the high price of the Gateway 500. I agree and that's why I am leaning towards the *Soundgate ALMBAUX* as an alternative to the Dension Gateway 500. It's nearly half the price of the Gateway and seems to provide the same functions. What are your thoughts on the Soundgate ALBAUX? Wouldn't it be better to buy it instead of the Gateway?

In my particular case, I will be using a CarPC like you(probably *THIS ONE*), and will not be interested in using any iPods or external USB drives. Reason being, among others, is that it appears neither the ALMBAUX or the Gateway 500 supports FLAC files. I have over 40,000 songs on my 600GB hard drive, all converted in flac format and do NOT want to go back to mp3s ever again.

So basically my plan is to mount the CarPC in the trunk next to the CD changer, use the line out analog signal from the CarPC's soundcard and run a small foot long mini cable to either the ALMBAUX or the Gateway 500's rca inputs. And then run a VGA cable to a small LCD monitor in the front dash so I can control my CarPC from there. I think this is a very good solution and much better than using an iPod to interface with the Gateway. I don't think I'd enjoy fiddling around with an archaic, buggy interface like the one the Gateway uses. Seems most people are unhappy with the clunkiness of the menus and the GUI seems very primitive(showing only tracklistings, names and not much else).

I like the idea that I will have access to a full blown Windows operating system and any music software I throw at it. I usually flip back and forth between Foobar2000 and Winamp. I'm sure being able to use these applications in my car will be much more pleasurable than looking at the small window in my head unit and trying to navigate my music via Gateway's primitive GUI.

What are your thoughts on this idea? Comments? Suggestions?

isamu

bump

my06clk

It's funny how you rave over winamp and Flac files as if they are cutting edge and refer to the GW's gui as primitive.

Do what you want, but Here's a small news flash.

Even thinking using windows with a dead player like winamp is pretty over.
If you want Real media, get rid of all of that ancient crap you are getting ready to buy and get a MAC mini, Start using a real file format like Aiff, or some other industry standard format,with remote control, and DVI which BTW is a heck of a lot less expensive than what you are trying to do, THen you can start calling other GUI's primitive.

Remember. at the end of all this, you are still playing this through a sound system that's ( what year is your car?? ) Primitive.

isamu

You can't claim MacMini is superior without providing any links.

Plus, is WinAmp and F00bar available for the Mac? I don't think it is. And what's this business about AiFF or whatever? There is simply no better file format than Flac. Period.

Skylaw

Actually, he can make any claims he wants. He has offered his opinion - which is also all you have done, despite providing links that prove nothing.

And your opinion contains assertions that are markedly just plain wrong.

WinAmp and F00bar can be run native on any Intel-based Mac - not that anyone would want to. That the programs can be run is fact, not opinion. The Mac standard for playback is iTunes - and there are others, if one wants more complexity. That too is fact. But while driving, my opinion is that simplicity is probably the better choice.

I'm not knocking FLAC - it may be OK - but doubt it is any better than Apple Lossless, if what you want is file compression. That is my opinion. But I can't believe you have to ask what AIFF is - it's the original, uncompressed file format used on CDs. That is fact. Before you bandy about your opinion that "there is no better file format than FLAC," perhaps it would be a good thing if you knew what you were comparing it to.

Be that as it may, your approach in adding the car computer is interesting. It is one of several ways to improve on the interface that MB offers, and to provide better flexibility. But one can do it with a Mac as well - with no compromise in quality. It's a matter of preference.

My preference is for the Mac over Windows any time - and while it is just a preference, it is based on using current version of both operating systems and common applications.

And another news flash - the MOST version FW 2.03 interface of my Gateway 500 is very easy to use (though I won't assert that it is easier than the computer interfaces) - and the sound quality of music recorded in AIFF format on my iPod is wonderful.

isamu

Thanks for the reply Skylaw. I was hoping to get a response from you, since you seem to be one of the more knowledgeable and active people in this thread.

I must admit I deliberately tried to cause somewhat a ruckus in this thread just to get some kind of feedback to my post, since this forum seems to be somewhat dead hehe.

It's all good, I have nothing against Macs at all. They're great machines. AIFF is indeed the original file format.

What's interesting though is that I called an installation shop today and the guy told me that a head unit playing CDs will always sound better than playing a digital file(mp3, wav, etc), because of the analog nature of the signal, or something to that degree. I don't know I agree with that but what do you think?

Also this....

I wouldn't doubt this for a second. But let me ask you, how big is the hdd in your ipod? I wouldn't mind going this route but since all I listen to is flac files, there isn't an ipod with a big enough hdd to store the amount of music I want to put on it. So how do you solve this problem?

Skylaw

Even an AIFF file involves digital sampling, at a very high rate - 44.100 kHz. Fast as it is, it still does not contain every single piece of information that an analog wave does - the analog wave is continuous.

That is one reason why evan a digitally mastered CD recording of a symphony concert does not sound as good as the orchestra does in the live performance in the concert hall. In the concert hall, the music is all analog.

However, I would take issue with the assertion that a device playing a CD will always be better. First, the music that leaves the amplifier to drive the speakers is always analog. The speakers produce sound waves are always analog ("Digital rated" means they can handle the wider bandwidth and dynamic range that digital input devices can produce - power, causing heat - vice older pure analog devices). It would be more accurate to say a device playing the AIFF format will sound better than one playing any kind of compressed format, especially a "lossy" format.

There are two main influences regarding the input devices: 1) The quality of their electronics (both design and build considerations) and 2) the quality of the medium that is input to (played by) the device.

Assuming for a moment that the electronics are equal, analog input other than live (including studio) performances have been limited by the recording medium. LP records introduced hiss and other noise, and the dynamic range is somewhat limited (though the technology had gotten pretty good toward the end of vinyl's reign). Analog recordings on magnetic tape introduced hiss, and had less dynamic range than CDs - despite Dolby sound processing.

CDs, despite carrying less "information" than an analog wave form, came very close to reproducing the true wave - close enough that one could not hear the difference at 44.100 kHz - and did so with no hiss or other noise, and a tremendous dynamic range especially good for capturing the harmonics of the concert hall. The ratio of the music signal to background noise (Signal to Noise Ratio) was far superior in CD recordings - all of which used (and still do) the AIFF format.

That gets us to comparisons of digital formats. The gold standard is AIFF. Although sampled, and therefore loses some information in the purest sense, the loss is very nearly indistinguishable to the ear. In the sense that all of the bits captured and recorded are played back, it is "lossless."

As you have pointed out, AIFFs can take up a lot of disc space. That gave rise to formats that downsampled the AIFF file - compressing it (deleting certain sequences of data) according to an algorithm while storing it, and then restoring much of what was removed when playing back. The success of the algorithms in reproducing the original data from the AIFF file (or other source) is what determines how "lossy" the compression is. .mp3 is fairly "lossy." You definitely do not restore the file fully - but many people view it as "good enough."

Recognizing the need to improve .mp3 performance yet reduce the AIFF file size, efforts went into developing "lossless" formats - OGG, FLAC, Apple Lossless among others - they take up more storage space than .mp3, but not as much as AIFF. Their relative success is in using better algorithms than .mp3 to first compress, then restore, the waveform.

Understand that even an AIFF has minute gaps - there is a blank space with no music, occurring at a rate of 44.100kHz - and when one is "downsampling", the new format will sample that "nothing" occasionally, when hitting one of those "blank" spots. This results in some loss; the downsampled file will lose some of the information in the original.

So, that gets us to the file format comparisons: You will get the best results using the most complete information available in reproducing the original analog wave form. That is AIFF in the current technology. Any other format will be not quite as good - but some may be acceptably close, when storage space considerations are taken into account.

Once again - assuming equal electronics quality - it is the file format that determines the music quality. Record your music in AIFF format, from original AIFF sources (CDs) onto your iPod, and you will have the equal of your CD changer's output. That will be true using a PC or a Mac to record on the iPod.

By the way, I use an 80GB 5th Gen iPod. I import all of my CDs in AIFF into iTunes. When I had a 4th Gen iPod with 40 GB, I sometimes used Apple Lossless for popular music, but not for symphony performances. Again, I doubt Apple Lossless is better than FLAC (and I believe you are correct that iTunes will not handle FLAC; its format options are AIFF, WAV, .mp3, AAC and Apple Lossless) - use what you're comfortable with. Still, since getting the 80GB unit, I have gone back and revised my playlists to use the AIFF file version wherever I had it.

Unfortunately, music purchased through the iTunes music store is limited - essentially it is .mp3, with digital rights protection added. Apple has recently started offering some higher quality recordings with one company, free of DRM, and hopes to add more. There is a qualitative difference.

I can say this: Before the Gateway 500 became available for MOST bus, and available through U.S. distributors, I could not integrate an iPod into my '05 S500. So, I duplicated my music library, converted it to .mp3, and recorded it to DVDs. The DVD player in my car would handle only .mp3, unfortunately (or DVD movie soundtracks - which were great in sound quality). The .mp3 DVD solution was better than nothing, but not nearly as satisfactory as using my iPod - for both quality and convenience.

But the iPod is great, especially when playing back original AIFF files.

Still, that's not close to 600 GB, and using original AIFF files would probably require a supplemental hard drive for your car PC.

The Gateway 500 would accept FLAC only as an analog, through the AUX input.

A question some have asked - though not you - I wouldn't bother converting music from .mp3 or lesser formats to AIFF; the loss of data has already occurred, and you don't get it back re-converting it to AIFF (or to a higher sampling rate). You just burn up disc space.

isamu

Thanks for the reply. I see what you're saying and there's a lot of educational information in your comments. But I still failed to find any evidence that playing a flac file is inferior to playing a raw AIFF file. When accessed and activated by the software player, the flac file decompresses and plays the file EXACTLY the way it would have, had it not been compressed in the first place. So how could there be any difference in sonic quality?

If you have a chance, please check out this thread.

*Why FLAC is brighter than .Wav(AIFF)*


....particularly this comment: