View Poll Results: If you have installed a pulley kit is the supercharger now audible at idle
Yes a loud Clikety-Clak can be heard now
4
25.00%
Nope Still the same
9
56.25%
I can\'t tell I have a hearing problem
3
18.75%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll
Kleemannized Update
06-14-2002, 12:32 AM
#1
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2006 MB C230 SS 6spd, Navi
Kleemannized Update
Well after my glorious praise I gave the Kleemann kit I need to report in.
1) I still love the power.
2) The car really needs a better intercooler as soon as the ambient temperature increases above 75 F the car feels very slow.
3) The car sounds terrible the clikety-clak of the supercharger is audible at idle even inside the cab. Below follows my discussions with KLEEMANN and my experiences with this ordeal.
I want everyone to understand that I'm not upset at the fact that it happened. When you modify a car you take the chance that something will go wrong. I'm upset at the lack of disclosure if this information was available which may have changed my decision.
1) I still love the power.
2) The car really needs a better intercooler as soon as the ambient temperature increases above 75 F the car feels very slow.
3) The car sounds terrible the clikety-clak of the supercharger is audible at idle even inside the cab. Below follows my discussions with KLEEMANN and my experiences with this ordeal.
I want everyone to understand that I'm not upset at the fact that it happened. When you modify a car you take the chance that something will go wrong. I'm upset at the lack of disclosure if this information was available which may have changed my decision.
KLEEMANN,
This is all a very acceptable and technical explanation of the problem and if upon purchasing my pulley kit I 'd have been informed of the possibility of this happening then it would have been me accepting responsibility for the potential problem. Needless to say I would have thought twice about installing the pulley kit in my car if I knew it was going to make it sound this way. I'm highly dissappointed that everything that you've disclosed in this letter was not disclosed to me before I purchased and had your pulley kit installed.
As you have pointed out I am now basicly screwed. I won't get into the the morality or much less the legality of this lack of disclosure. Nor will I pursue you for a solution to this problem. I will take this lump and seek a solution to it by other means. However I am dutifully bound to make this information publicly known so others may benefit from it and perhaps allow them to make a more informed decision.
Again I can not tell you how distasteful I think it is that this information is not disclosed.
Regards
WyattEarp
This is all a very acceptable and technical explanation of the problem and if upon purchasing my pulley kit I 'd have been informed of the possibility of this happening then it would have been me accepting responsibility for the potential problem. Needless to say I would have thought twice about installing the pulley kit in my car if I knew it was going to make it sound this way. I'm highly dissappointed that everything that you've disclosed in this letter was not disclosed to me before I purchased and had your pulley kit installed.
As you have pointed out I am now basicly screwed. I won't get into the the morality or much less the legality of this lack of disclosure. Nor will I pursue you for a solution to this problem. I will take this lump and seek a solution to it by other means. However I am dutifully bound to make this information publicly known so others may benefit from it and perhaps allow them to make a more informed decision.
Again I can not tell you how distasteful I think it is that this information is not disclosed.
Regards
WyattEarp
----- Original Message -----
From: "KLEEMANN "
To: "WyattEarp"
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: Supercharger Audible at Idle
Wyatt-
EATON makes the SC's for MBZ that are used on the M111 engine. These are roots type SC's- the tolerance between the gears in the transmission of the SC is not what you would call close. Roots SC have large tolerances between both the rotor blades and gears- out of 10 SC's the measured backlash in the gears can vary .008". Some will be more quiet than others.
At idle the power pulse of the engine is quite pronounced- this does not help the "clacking" sound from the SC. Turn the SC with a larger pulley and the problem increases in cadence.
This phenomenon is the primary reason there were clutches on the early versions of the M111- supposed manufacturing changes by EATON lead to the removal of the clutch system.
I wish it were something I could fix, but the issue is within the SC-
Regards-
KLEEMANN
Director
Kleemann USA Inc.
29 West Cimarron Street
Colorado Springs, CO 80903 USA
Tel- 719.473.6441
Fax- 719.448.0715
From: "KLEEMANN "
To: "WyattEarp"
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: Supercharger Audible at Idle
Wyatt-
EATON makes the SC's for MBZ that are used on the M111 engine. These are roots type SC's- the tolerance between the gears in the transmission of the SC is not what you would call close. Roots SC have large tolerances between both the rotor blades and gears- out of 10 SC's the measured backlash in the gears can vary .008". Some will be more quiet than others.
At idle the power pulse of the engine is quite pronounced- this does not help the "clacking" sound from the SC. Turn the SC with a larger pulley and the problem increases in cadence.
This phenomenon is the primary reason there were clutches on the early versions of the M111- supposed manufacturing changes by EATON lead to the removal of the clutch system.
I wish it were something I could fix, but the issue is within the SC-
Regards-
KLEEMANN
Director
Kleemann USA Inc.
29 West Cimarron Street
Colorado Springs, CO 80903 USA
Tel- 719.473.6441
Fax- 719.448.0715
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "WyattEarp"
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:54:29 +0500
This is a message from WyattEarp at MBworld.org Forums ( https://mbworld.org/forums/index.php ). The MBworld.org Forums owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.
This is the message:
KLEEMANN,
I've approached Gil at AI Design twice about my dissatisfaction with the noise the supercharger makes at idle after the installation of your pulley kit. He insists that it's normal and there is nothing he can do about it. The noise is so bad that you can hear it inside the cab of the car and from the outside it makes the car sound like a cheap out of tune engine. Please understand these noises are at idle I don't mind at all the increased whine of the supercharger on acceleration.
I'm hopeful that given this opportunity you will be able to remedy this problem. Nowhere in your literature or in your exchanges in the forum do you warn about the possibility ofd this occurring. I also have not heard anyone else complain about this hence I imagine mine to be an isolated case.
I look forward to your reply and a mutually beneficial solution.
Regards
WyattEarp
From: "WyattEarp"
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:54:29 +0500
This is a message from WyattEarp at MBworld.org Forums ( https://mbworld.org/forums/index.php ). The MBworld.org Forums owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.
This is the message:
KLEEMANN,
I've approached Gil at AI Design twice about my dissatisfaction with the noise the supercharger makes at idle after the installation of your pulley kit. He insists that it's normal and there is nothing he can do about it. The noise is so bad that you can hear it inside the cab of the car and from the outside it makes the car sound like a cheap out of tune engine. Please understand these noises are at idle I don't mind at all the increased whine of the supercharger on acceleration.
I'm hopeful that given this opportunity you will be able to remedy this problem. Nowhere in your literature or in your exchanges in the forum do you warn about the possibility ofd this occurring. I also have not heard anyone else complain about this hence I imagine mine to be an isolated case.
I look forward to your reply and a mutually beneficial solution.
Regards
WyattEarp
Last edited by WyattEarp; 06-14-2002 at 12:55 AM.
06-14-2002, 01:18 AM
#2
MBWorld Fanatic!
Sorry to hear that you are having issues with your ring. I've installed an alloy pulley on my car and no such noise. The S/C whine was more pronounced but not bad. Certainly not the noise you described. I removed the pulley because the car was leaking oil badly and it turned out to be damaged oil filter gasket they caused during an oil change a few weeks ago. I noticed the leak while I was installing the pulley. Also I drove an SLK before and after a Kleemann alloy pulley install and I could not tell any difference in sound whatsover, not even a whine from inside the car and the top was down. The AMG exhaust sounded louder/better afterwards from the additional boost and that's it.
I don't doubt Brandon's explanation but are you 100% sure it's coming from the S/C? That ring is large and that pushes the belt very close to other pullies and the belt may be hitting something if the tensioner is weak, a set screw may have gotton loose, the belt may be routed wrong (I did that the first time, Doh!). Just thoughts. A mechanics stethascope may help localize the noise and make sure it's the S/C or not. If it's the S/C and Kleemann is right then it may be luck of the draw. Maybe a much less aggresive pulley may be a compromise between the noise and power. If Kleemann can't do that for you and that's an avenue you want to pursue I can ask my pulley maker if they can make one smaller, maybe only 8" or so at the grooves (factory is about 7 3/16" if I remember correctly). They are used to doing that and make several size pullies for other supercharged cars depending on a customers preferences.
I don't doubt Brandon's explanation but are you 100% sure it's coming from the S/C? That ring is large and that pushes the belt very close to other pullies and the belt may be hitting something if the tensioner is weak, a set screw may have gotton loose, the belt may be routed wrong (I did that the first time, Doh!). Just thoughts. A mechanics stethascope may help localize the noise and make sure it's the S/C or not. If it's the S/C and Kleemann is right then it may be luck of the draw. Maybe a much less aggresive pulley may be a compromise between the noise and power. If Kleemann can't do that for you and that's an avenue you want to pursue I can ask my pulley maker if they can make one smaller, maybe only 8" or so at the grooves (factory is about 7 3/16" if I remember correctly). They are used to doing that and make several size pullies for other supercharged cars depending on a customers preferences.
06-14-2002, 09:01 AM
#3
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2002 Paprika C230K/C7/C4/C2/6spd/Chip(?)
After having my Kleemann ring installed, I can say that I have no offending noises coming from the engine bay. From the explanation Brandon supplied, it's not a design issue with Kleemann, but an issue with the supercharger itself. If that's the case, then you may very well have gotten that annoying sound no matter what company's product you went with.
06-14-2002, 09:15 AM
#4
Out Of Control!!
If they knew, they should have had a disclaimer about it, something like:
Warning: because of the design of the supercharger for this model, there is a possibility of additional noise at idle. Take that into consideration when purchasing this product.
I don't think that's beyond fairness to disclose that, and think that Wyatt has a valid point.
Warning: because of the design of the supercharger for this model, there is a possibility of additional noise at idle. Take that into consideration when purchasing this product.
I don't think that's beyond fairness to disclose that, and think that Wyatt has a valid point.
06-14-2002, 09:20 AM
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2006 MB C230 SS 6spd, Navi
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
Sorry to hear that you are having issues with your ring. I've installed an alloy pulley on my car and no such noise. The S/C whine was more pronounced but not bad. Certainly not the noise you described. I removed the pulley because the car was leaking oil badly and it turned out to be damaged oil filter gasket they caused during an oil change a few weeks ago. I noticed the leak while I was installing the pulley. Also I drove an SLK before and after a Kleemann alloy pulley install and I could not tell any difference in sound whatsover, not even a whine from inside the car and the top was down. The AMG exhaust sounded louder/better afterwards from the additional boost and that's it.
I don't doubt Brandon's explanation but are you 100% sure it's coming from the S/C? That ring is large and that pushes the belt very close to other pullies and the belt may be hitting something if the tensioner is weak, a set screw may have gotton loose, the belt may be routed wrong (I did that the first time, Doh!). Just thoughts. A mechanics stethascope may help localize the noise and make sure it's the S/C or not. If it's the S/C and Kleemann is right then it may be luck of the draw. Maybe a much less aggresive pulley may be a compromise between the noise and power. If Kleemann can't do that for you and that's an avenue you want to pursue I can ask my pulley maker if they can make one smaller, maybe only 8" or so at the grooves (factory is about 7 3/16" if I remember correctly). They are used to doing that and make several size pullies for other supercharged cars depending on a customers preferences.
Sorry to hear that you are having issues with your ring. I've installed an alloy pulley on my car and no such noise. The S/C whine was more pronounced but not bad. Certainly not the noise you described. I removed the pulley because the car was leaking oil badly and it turned out to be damaged oil filter gasket they caused during an oil change a few weeks ago. I noticed the leak while I was installing the pulley. Also I drove an SLK before and after a Kleemann alloy pulley install and I could not tell any difference in sound whatsover, not even a whine from inside the car and the top was down. The AMG exhaust sounded louder/better afterwards from the additional boost and that's it.
I don't doubt Brandon's explanation but are you 100% sure it's coming from the S/C? That ring is large and that pushes the belt very close to other pullies and the belt may be hitting something if the tensioner is weak, a set screw may have gotton loose, the belt may be routed wrong (I did that the first time, Doh!). Just thoughts. A mechanics stethascope may help localize the noise and make sure it's the S/C or not. If it's the S/C and Kleemann is right then it may be luck of the draw. Maybe a much less aggresive pulley may be a compromise between the noise and power. If Kleemann can't do that for you and that's an avenue you want to pursue I can ask my pulley maker if they can make one smaller, maybe only 8" or so at the grooves (factory is about 7 3/16" if I remember correctly). They are used to doing that and make several size pullies for other supercharged cars depending on a customers preferences.
06-14-2002, 09:23 AM
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2006 MB C230 SS 6spd, Navi
Well with a total of five votes four have not experienced this which leads me to believe that replacing the supercharger may solve my problem. I wonder what the cost of the supercharger is for the coupe?
Trending Topics
06-14-2002, 10:22 AM
#8
Wyatt, mdp's idea sounds like a plan to me... If it's a problem inherent in the SC, maybe you can restore the engine to factory spec pulley, then listen for the sound in stock condition. If present, then pursue MB for a warranty replacement. Worth a try. Sorry to hear about the problem.
06-14-2002, 10:48 AM
#9
MBWorld Fanatic!
I followed the SLK forums for close to a year and never heard of this problem. It may be something totally unrelated. It's a good idea to remove the ring and see if the noise persists. The ring is easy to remove, just take out the air cleaner box (one screw on left side) and you'll have all the access you need. You may want to ask Brandon if the factory belt will work with his alternator mod as that requires getting under that car and having an impact gun to remove it. Here's a pic of the air filter box so you have an idea of how it comes out. It shouldn't take you more than a 1/2 hour to remove it. Keep the owners manual handy so you remember how to put the belt back on.
06-14-2002, 10:56 AM
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2006 MB C230 SS 6spd, Navi
Originally posted by mdp c230k
You could try removing the pulley and taking it in for a warrantee repair. You might get lucky and have MB change it for you!
You could try removing the pulley and taking it in for a warrantee repair. You might get lucky and have MB change it for you!
06-14-2002, 10:58 AM
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I received KLEEMANN's replay this morning and in fairness I thought I should post it.
Wyatt-
You are the first person to complain about noise at idle, certainly many have talked about the whine at speed. I can answer the question to the origin of the problem based on my knowledge of EATON SC systems and it is the only reasonable explination.
By all means post your experiences- I am not the kind of person who tries to mislead people of the downfalls/problems dangers of tuning- I am quite frank in this department.
Regards-
KLEEMANN
Director
Kleemann USA Inc.
29 West Cimarron Street
Colorado Springs, CO 80903 USA
Tel- 719.473.6441
Fax- 719.448.0715
You are the first person to complain about noise at idle, certainly many have talked about the whine at speed. I can answer the question to the origin of the problem based on my knowledge of EATON SC systems and it is the only reasonable explination.
By all means post your experiences- I am not the kind of person who tries to mislead people of the downfalls/problems dangers of tuning- I am quite frank in this department.
Regards-
KLEEMANN
Director
Kleemann USA Inc.
29 West Cimarron Street
Colorado Springs, CO 80903 USA
Tel- 719.473.6441
Fax- 719.448.0715
06-14-2002, 11:53 AM
#12
Super Member
Wyatt,
The SC you got from MB might not be to spec reguardless of your pulley upgrade. If thats the case then they should replace it. Your pulley just made it more obvious. I would have no qualms if this is the case.
The SC you got from MB might not be to spec reguardless of your pulley upgrade. If thats the case then they should replace it. Your pulley just made it more obvious. I would have no qualms if this is the case.
06-14-2002, 11:53 AM
#13
Originally posted by WyattEarp
In all honesty my consciense would bother me if I did that.
In all honesty my consciense would bother me if I did that.
The assumption is that the pulley kit hasn't created a problem, but rather amplifies one that is already there... which (if you can get MB to agree) means that they should fix or replace your SC under warranty... irrespective of your installing an aftermarket pulley.
Wow, simultaneous responses...
06-14-2002, 11:56 AM
#14
MBWorld Fanatic!
one reason i decided to not get the steel ring upgrade was that it would leave telltale marks from the screws... i was told that it would "dent" the oem pulley.
if you do return it to stock, you may have to buy a replacement.
if you do return it to stock, you may have to buy a replacement.
06-14-2002, 12:12 PM
#15
MBWorld Fanatic!
Good point Young, the grooves should be cleaned up if tweaked and crunched or the belt will not last as long as it should and make new noises you haven't yet heard.
Wyatt, think about what's happening, at idle the supercharger is barely spinning. If it's making noise at idle, taking the ring off will not make much of a difference. For example, Kleemann claims that the his ring makes the S/C spin 20% faster. So say at idle you are running 1,000 rpm and it makes noise, removing the ring would mean that the exact same noise would occur at 1,200 rpm which is an insignificant number in your rpm range. If it is the supercharger and the noise happened after 4 days then the there is something wrong with the supercharger regardless of the pulley. I would buy a factory pulley ($300) put that back on, replace the alternator pulley, clean it up nice and bring it in and ask them what that noise is. The dealer makes money on the repair so don't feel bad. This didn't happen to many people that put pully kits on their SLKs and C230s so it's an MB problem.
I still think it's an installation problem, those rings are tricky and a few SLK people had installation related issues.
Wyatt, think about what's happening, at idle the supercharger is barely spinning. If it's making noise at idle, taking the ring off will not make much of a difference. For example, Kleemann claims that the his ring makes the S/C spin 20% faster. So say at idle you are running 1,000 rpm and it makes noise, removing the ring would mean that the exact same noise would occur at 1,200 rpm which is an insignificant number in your rpm range. If it is the supercharger and the noise happened after 4 days then the there is something wrong with the supercharger regardless of the pulley. I would buy a factory pulley ($300) put that back on, replace the alternator pulley, clean it up nice and bring it in and ask them what that noise is. The dealer makes money on the repair so don't feel bad. This didn't happen to many people that put pully kits on their SLKs and C230s so it's an MB problem.
I still think it's an installation problem, those rings are tricky and a few SLK people had installation related issues.
06-14-2002, 05:19 PM
#16
MBWorld Fanatic!
Could it be the bypass valve relieving excessive boost created by the faster-than-normal spinning SC at idle?
Last edited by vadim; 06-14-2002 at 05:23 PM.
06-14-2002, 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by vadim
Could it be the bypass valve relieving excessive boost created by the faster-than-normal spinning SC at idle?
Could it be the bypass valve relieving excessive boost created by the faster-than-normal spinning SC at idle?
06-14-2002, 11:15 PM
#19
Super Member
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
Mazda rotary engines go Hmmmm, I thought your's when clikety-clack, don't talk back.
Mazda rotary engines go Hmmmm, I thought your's when clikety-clack, don't talk back.
Last edited by mdp c230k; 06-14-2002 at 11:17 PM.
06-17-2002, 06:17 PM
#20
MBWorld Fanatic!
So Wyatt, what did you find out? Are you clikety-clacking or humming along? If your Eaton M45 is toast are you going to try the Eaton M62 or let MB fix your M45?
06-17-2002, 09:56 PM
#21
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My Eaton M45 is toast. With roughly twice the CFM in the M62 apart from the physical problems of fitting the M62, I am almost sure that there is no way to put the new supercharger in there without modifying the intercooler and the fuel delivery system. I haven't met the right shop for that kind of endeavor and I don't have the facilities myself. When I do I will probably take it on.
06-17-2002, 10:27 PM
#22
MBWorld Fanatic!
So what are you going to do? Let MB fix it under warranttee? If nobody else had this problem it's likely a marginal supercharger that broke when you started driving more aggresively with the pulley ring.
06-18-2002, 12:15 AM
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C230 kompressor C2 C7
well i am sorry to hear your having these problems, but am happy to hear it isn't the pulley's fault.
boy i would sure like to see a m62 mod. that is a real boost in pressure. i think you are correct, you would need to increase most everything in the fuel system. injectors, fuel pump, and then what would you do for software. your stock intercooler wouldn't keep up for sure, and how much room is there to go bigger? i can see this opening up a can of worms. along with more power comes more heat. add a radiator to the mix. and don't forget a larger intake system. oh, and that air can't get in without gettining out the back, so tack on a new custom exhaust system. and now that you are running 300+ horsepower, there is no way those tires and wheels will be sufficient. i suggest a staggard setup. and to be on the safe side, better pony up for a set of brakes. those brakes would feel pretty lonely unless you kept them company with some coil over suspension. is any one adding this up? i don't know how much it would cost, but it would be one hot compact car. then again, with the price of all these add ons, we could have just bought a fast car. oh, but it is nice to dream. if only money were no object.
boy i would sure like to see a m62 mod. that is a real boost in pressure. i think you are correct, you would need to increase most everything in the fuel system. injectors, fuel pump, and then what would you do for software. your stock intercooler wouldn't keep up for sure, and how much room is there to go bigger? i can see this opening up a can of worms. along with more power comes more heat. add a radiator to the mix. and don't forget a larger intake system. oh, and that air can't get in without gettining out the back, so tack on a new custom exhaust system. and now that you are running 300+ horsepower, there is no way those tires and wheels will be sufficient. i suggest a staggard setup. and to be on the safe side, better pony up for a set of brakes. those brakes would feel pretty lonely unless you kept them company with some coil over suspension. is any one adding this up? i don't know how much it would cost, but it would be one hot compact car. then again, with the price of all these add ons, we could have just bought a fast car. oh, but it is nice to dream. if only money were no object.
09-22-2004, 05:02 AM
#24
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2006 MB C230 SS 6spd, Navi
Update at 47,700 miles
By now most of you may have forgotten about this thread. But I established a fairly good rapor with my dealer and they replaced the supercharger because it was malfunctioning at 47,700. Just thought all of you should know.
