Aftermarket HID Conversion Kits & required setting XENON=PRESENT thread
10-09-2005, 11:08 PM
#678
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2005 C Wagon (No snickering please!)
The 6K Philips HID lamps, if genuine, are made in Germany. There are a lot of these lamps that are fake, coming from China. Sellers are marking them as if they came from Philips. These lamps typically measure in the 5600 to 5800K reigon, and as such are not good copies. Their lifetime is significantly shorter, around 300 hours v. 2000 for real lamps. The cost to make them is about $ 15, and people sell them for over $ 200.
Now, as for putting them in your car, they are not approved for road use in Europe and the USA, so you take a chance of getting nabbed in a state vehicle inspection.
Does it look cool? Yes. Do you loose 25% or more brightness? Yes. If you had an accident, would you like to explain to the judge why you had dim bulbs? No.
All of the colors which your mind perceives are constructed from combinations of relative intensities of these three "wavelengths: red, green and blue and are the only "signals" your brain receives from your eyes. The "intensity" of a sensation is proportional to the frequency of nerve impulses. If 650 nm photons hit your retina, your brain will receive a mixture of green and red signals, with more red than green but not too many of either. This will be interpreted as red. Similarly, 475 nm photons will cause about equal numbers of blue and green signals, with only a few red; this will be interpreted as a sort of bluish-green. The number of signals for any one of these ranges depends on both the intensity of the light and the sensitivity at that wavelength. This leads to a vaguely disturbing contrast between sensation and perception: your eye sends only three kinds of signals to your brain, yet your brain "constructs" the full color spectrum of "reality" from them. Now you can understand why people can have violent disagreements over what color something is: no two people see exactly the same thing, yet we assume that color is something objective. Since most of us have similar sensitivities we can agree on primary colors, so the garment industry has nothing to fear when it comes to describing a red dress. From the chart below, we find that our eyes are not very sensitive to blue. This combined with less intensity from 6000K HID lamps make it much harder to see with these bulbs.
If you really want to see better at night and can find someone who has stock, Philips has made som 50 watt 4300K lamps. They are not for automotive use, but will kick out a bit more light in the area where your eye is most sensitive.
Now, as for putting them in your car, they are not approved for road use in Europe and the USA, so you take a chance of getting nabbed in a state vehicle inspection.
Does it look cool? Yes. Do you loose 25% or more brightness? Yes. If you had an accident, would you like to explain to the judge why you had dim bulbs? No.
All of the colors which your mind perceives are constructed from combinations of relative intensities of these three "wavelengths: red, green and blue and are the only "signals" your brain receives from your eyes. The "intensity" of a sensation is proportional to the frequency of nerve impulses. If 650 nm photons hit your retina, your brain will receive a mixture of green and red signals, with more red than green but not too many of either. This will be interpreted as red. Similarly, 475 nm photons will cause about equal numbers of blue and green signals, with only a few red; this will be interpreted as a sort of bluish-green. The number of signals for any one of these ranges depends on both the intensity of the light and the sensitivity at that wavelength. This leads to a vaguely disturbing contrast between sensation and perception: your eye sends only three kinds of signals to your brain, yet your brain "constructs" the full color spectrum of "reality" from them. Now you can understand why people can have violent disagreements over what color something is: no two people see exactly the same thing, yet we assume that color is something objective. Since most of us have similar sensitivities we can agree on primary colors, so the garment industry has nothing to fear when it comes to describing a red dress. From the chart below, we find that our eyes are not very sensitive to blue. This combined with less intensity from 6000K HID lamps make it much harder to see with these bulbs.
If you really want to see better at night and can find someone who has stock, Philips has made som 50 watt 4300K lamps. They are not for automotive use, but will kick out a bit more light in the area where your eye is most sensitive.
10-09-2005, 11:33 PM
#679
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08' BMW E92 Coupe
Originally Posted by Moviela
The 6K Philips HID lamps, if genuine, are made in Germany. There are a lot of these lamps that are fake, coming from China. Sellers are marking them as if they came from Philips. These lamps typically measure in the 5600 to 5800K reigon, and as such are not good copies. Their lifetime is significantly shorter, around 300 hours v. 2000 for real lamps. The cost to make them is about $ 15, and people sell them for over $ 200.
Now, as for putting them in your car, they are not approved for road use in Europe and the USA, so you take a chance of getting nabbed in a state vehicle inspection.
Does it look cool? Yes. Do you loose 25% or more brightness? Yes. If you had an accident, would you like to explain to the judge why you had dim bulbs? No.
All of the colors which your mind perceives are constructed from combinations of relative intensities of these three "wavelengths: red, green and blue and are the only "signals" your brain receives from your eyes. The "intensity" of a sensation is proportional to the frequency of nerve impulses. If 650 nm photons hit your retina, your brain will receive a mixture of green and red signals, with more red than green but not too many of either. This will be interpreted as red. Similarly, 475 nm photons will cause about equal numbers of blue and green signals, with only a few red; this will be interpreted as a sort of bluish-green. The number of signals for any one of these ranges depends on both the intensity of the light and the sensitivity at that wavelength. This leads to a vaguely disturbing contrast between sensation and perception: your eye sends only three kinds of signals to your brain, yet your brain "constructs" the full color spectrum of "reality" from them. Now you can understand why people can have violent disagreements over what color something is: no two people see exactly the same thing, yet we assume that color is something objective. Since most of us have similar sensitivities we can agree on primary colors, so the garment industry has nothing to fear when it comes to describing a red dress. From the chart below, we find that our eyes are not very sensitive to blue. This combined with less intensity from 6000K HID lamps make it much harder to see with these bulbs.
If you really want to see better at night and can find someone who has stock, Philips has made som 50 watt 4300K lamps. They are not for automotive use, but will kick out a bit more light in the area where your eye is most sensitive.
Now, as for putting them in your car, they are not approved for road use in Europe and the USA, so you take a chance of getting nabbed in a state vehicle inspection.
Does it look cool? Yes. Do you loose 25% or more brightness? Yes. If you had an accident, would you like to explain to the judge why you had dim bulbs? No.
All of the colors which your mind perceives are constructed from combinations of relative intensities of these three "wavelengths: red, green and blue and are the only "signals" your brain receives from your eyes. The "intensity" of a sensation is proportional to the frequency of nerve impulses. If 650 nm photons hit your retina, your brain will receive a mixture of green and red signals, with more red than green but not too many of either. This will be interpreted as red. Similarly, 475 nm photons will cause about equal numbers of blue and green signals, with only a few red; this will be interpreted as a sort of bluish-green. The number of signals for any one of these ranges depends on both the intensity of the light and the sensitivity at that wavelength. This leads to a vaguely disturbing contrast between sensation and perception: your eye sends only three kinds of signals to your brain, yet your brain "constructs" the full color spectrum of "reality" from them. Now you can understand why people can have violent disagreements over what color something is: no two people see exactly the same thing, yet we assume that color is something objective. Since most of us have similar sensitivities we can agree on primary colors, so the garment industry has nothing to fear when it comes to describing a red dress. From the chart below, we find that our eyes are not very sensitive to blue. This combined with less intensity from 6000K HID lamps make it much harder to see with these bulbs.
If you really want to see better at night and can find someone who has stock, Philips has made som 50 watt 4300K lamps. They are not for automotive use, but will kick out a bit more light in the area where your eye is most sensitive.
10-10-2005, 12:47 AM
#680
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AMG E55, Stage 1, Strait Pipe from Primary Cats
Originally Posted by mbny
while i see what your saying, all i can really express my opinions on is personal experience. if i'm seeing better 80% of the time b/c my eyes are playing tricks on me, then i say keep playing tricks on me. i was one of the first to get 6000ks while a member of E46fanatics and heard lots of critisism over my decision to go with 6000ks. bottomline was that they were still miles apart from halogens being better, and had to get replies on how much my visibility would be decreased while i experienced the opposite other than in rain. i would just tell them not to feel sorry for me for my decision, but for those still driving with halogens. i think that the improved visibility in signs and street lines is good enough for me. i will admit that seeing dark objects in wet weather with these lights in much less, everything else is an improvement. i can really only explain from personal experience. if someone asks me to trust them over my own my eyes, i'm sure you all will understand which i choose. i think the lights your referring to however, are the xenon bulbs with the colored filtered over them which i would not recommend as for the fake measured k bulbs.
I am on board with your every word
I have tried all those painted halogens(silverstars are best)in my Suburban. I have tried 4100K to 6000K HID bulbs in my Benz and if I had a dime for everytime someone went on about what the eye can see blah,blah,..I mean I read all that stuff years ago.. Bottomline is you got to go buy it and try it. ps. I live in So Cali. Never rains !
10-10-2005, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by diamondblak05
Actually, according to Philips, you would lose 25% of illumination because the stock 4100K D2S bulb is rated at 3200 lumens while the ultinon 6000K bulb is rated at 2400 lumens. I like the bluish/purplish/white color combination but when it starts to rain, you won't be able to see much of anything. Because of that, I swapped it right back to stock after a week.
10-10-2005, 10:51 AM
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Philips Ultinon 6000K is the ONLY HID bulb I used for all my car. No matter if the car is come with HID system from dealer or I put the after market HID kit.I always put Philips Ultinon 6000K after try other brand and color temp. I feel the most comfortable with my own eyes, Don't care other people says ! Those people don't even have HID on their own car !! :p
10-10-2005, 12:15 PM
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2004.5 C 230
Originally Posted by BklynBenz
yeah thats cause practically every route, street and highway in NJ dont have street lights, so you need all the lumens you can get 
What lights do you leave on when you Double it?
10-10-2005, 12:16 PM
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AMG E55, Stage 1, Strait Pipe from Primary Cats
Originally Posted by sdsilverm3
I can attest to the reduced visibility in the rain. Purple and black asphalt doesn't go together in the rain.
10-10-2005, 12:19 PM
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AMG E55, Stage 1, Strait Pipe from Primary Cats
Originally Posted by trust203
Philips Ultinon 6000K is the ONLY HID bulb I used for all my car. No matter if the car is come with HID system from dealer or I put the after market HID kit.I always put Philips Ultinon 6000K after try other brand and color temp. I feel the most comfortable with my own eyes, Don't care other people says ! Those people don't even have HID on their own car !! :p
Well said.. Most people who have ACTUALLY TRIED THEM feel this way.
10-12-2005, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by benzondubz
Yeah it really poors down in Diego huh. What kinda snow tires do you run in the winter
Driving in the snow in San Diego is like
. LOL. It rained quite a bit last winter though. Weird stuff. 
10-13-2005, 11:46 PM
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'12 CLS550, '08 M6, '04 E500
I love my Philips Ultinon 6000K. Lower lumen, whatever... I don't care what the lumen rating says. The fact is I tried both and I see better at night with the Ultinon. I let my eyes be the judge.
10-19-2005, 10:56 PM
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I'd like to upgrade to HIDs
I'd like to upgrade to HIDs, so i'm thinking of buying two sets (preferrably used) for my lowbeams and foglights. Guys, what do i need to look for? They're not exactly cheap, so i'd hate to make a mistake. What K am i looking for? Naturally, I want the brightest available (unless they cost twice as much 
). Also, do brands matter? Do all HIDs of the same K look the same? For instance, if i use different brands for my lows and fogs, will they match? And are they all compatible with those new projector lights? I'm thinking about getting those soon as well. Thanks!
). Also, do brands matter? Do all HIDs of the same K look the same? For instance, if i use different brands for my lows and fogs, will they match? And are they all compatible with those new projector lights? I'm thinking about getting those soon as well. Thanks!
10-19-2005, 11:00 PM
#690
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2003 Citron Green C230KMT
honestly i say just get the BiX headlights. they are a direct swap, no cutting of plugs required, look alot better, and you get xenon highbeams.
as for foglights, the only one on the boards i know if that has xenon fogs is weidermann, though i haven't a clue where he's been lately.
not all xenon bulbs are the same Kelvin temp. the higher the K, the more blue the light. there was a thread not to long ago about xenon lights. ill see if i can find it.
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=122867
http://www.hidplanet.com/
as for foglights, the only one on the boards i know if that has xenon fogs is weidermann, though i haven't a clue where he's been lately.
not all xenon bulbs are the same Kelvin temp. the higher the K, the more blue the light. there was a thread not to long ago about xenon lights. ill see if i can find it.
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=122867
http://www.hidplanet.com/
Last edited by CitronC230K_03; 10-19-2005 at 11:03 PM.
10-19-2005, 11:19 PM
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Haha man, i don't even know what bi-xenons are. Fill me in? I want something really bright, at least 6000k. But i heard about 8000 and 10000k, how are those?
10-19-2005, 11:33 PM
#692
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2003 Citron Green C230KMT
bi xenons are like the headlight you see on my car. they have the projector beams rather than reflective, and both low and hi beams are xenon, hi beams are also halogen.
10-20-2005, 12:05 AM
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lol! i will post pics when 1. the bulbs arrive 2. i can put them in my car 3. get my car from the body shop, still in for repairs.
i was sold by seeing the pics everyone posted.
i was sold by seeing the pics everyone posted.
10-20-2005, 12:56 AM
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2005 C Wagon (No snickering please!)
Most HID (high intensit discharge) lamps for automotive use are 35 watts. They are made in two basic color temperatures, 4300 and 6000K. There are minor variations around these basic temperatures, depending on who makes them, and what gas is inside. Higher color temperature lamps are not brighter, but they are more blue. 6000K lamps from Philips (best in my opinion) measure about 25% less light. The 10000 and 12000K lamps are usually lesser quality lamps with optical coatings that increase color temperature, but greatly reduce the light.
Early on European manufacturers used xenon lamps with reflectors. They are out of favor now because projector stlyes are so much better. Those early reflectors had a bluish appearence because of the reflector coating, not the lamp. The lamp is a 4300K unit.
Mercedes Benz Bi-Xenon (high and low beam being the Bi part) lamp assemblies are made by Automotive Lighting by about a thousand people in the Czech Republic. Bulbs are from Germany, and electronics are from France. Cars with factory Bi-Xenon come with sensors on the front and rear axel that adjust the beam automatically. Many people who fit the lamps after market feel that this is not necessary.
Philips has made some lamps in automotive style bases that are 50 watts. They are labeled "Not for automotive use in Europe and USA." If you can find them, they are the ones to have, if brightness is your goal.
Some people feel they see better with Philips 6000K lamps, and their opinoins are to be respected, however, they do report also that visibility in rain and fog is diminished. Those lamps do look more blue, like the earlier reflectors, and some people like them because it makes their car different from the crowd, which I think is cool.
Cheap lamps from China are often sold with inflated color temperature claims (how would you measure it, anyhow?) and 300 hour lifetimes. Philips and Osram (Sylvania in the USA) lamps are very near the specified color temperature, and their lifetime is about 2000 hours. Color temperature variations from lamp to lamp are visible to the eye, so the lamps are offered for sale in matched pairs. Automotive Lighting matches the lamp assemblies it makes for Mercedes production lines. Another wrinkle is that there are couterfeit lamps from China marked Philips. Many of these are sold in kits on the internet.
If you do put Bi-Xenon lamps you need to change a setting in the cars computer at a dealer to Xenon=Present. The computer is checking the lamp current, and the lower wattage of the xenon lamp can cause them to flicker if the computer is not set correctly.
There are after market housings, most notably from Depo, for about 500. The dealer will charge about 2400. for a set. (ouch, they are only 800. as an option.) There are also "HID" look units that use regular haogen lamps, but are not worth having. For me the after market sets like Depo would be great on a lease car I am turning in, that had a broken housing or lens.
If you buy a used set, be aware that the coupe and sedan C Classe housings are not interchangeable.
If you want to buy from a trusted source, that offers real value for your money, consider MbenzNL.com.
Early on European manufacturers used xenon lamps with reflectors. They are out of favor now because projector stlyes are so much better. Those early reflectors had a bluish appearence because of the reflector coating, not the lamp. The lamp is a 4300K unit.
Mercedes Benz Bi-Xenon (high and low beam being the Bi part) lamp assemblies are made by Automotive Lighting by about a thousand people in the Czech Republic. Bulbs are from Germany, and electronics are from France. Cars with factory Bi-Xenon come with sensors on the front and rear axel that adjust the beam automatically. Many people who fit the lamps after market feel that this is not necessary.
Philips has made some lamps in automotive style bases that are 50 watts. They are labeled "Not for automotive use in Europe and USA." If you can find them, they are the ones to have, if brightness is your goal.
Some people feel they see better with Philips 6000K lamps, and their opinoins are to be respected, however, they do report also that visibility in rain and fog is diminished. Those lamps do look more blue, like the earlier reflectors, and some people like them because it makes their car different from the crowd, which I think is cool.
Cheap lamps from China are often sold with inflated color temperature claims (how would you measure it, anyhow?) and 300 hour lifetimes. Philips and Osram (Sylvania in the USA) lamps are very near the specified color temperature, and their lifetime is about 2000 hours. Color temperature variations from lamp to lamp are visible to the eye, so the lamps are offered for sale in matched pairs. Automotive Lighting matches the lamp assemblies it makes for Mercedes production lines. Another wrinkle is that there are couterfeit lamps from China marked Philips. Many of these are sold in kits on the internet.
If you do put Bi-Xenon lamps you need to change a setting in the cars computer at a dealer to Xenon=Present. The computer is checking the lamp current, and the lower wattage of the xenon lamp can cause them to flicker if the computer is not set correctly.
There are after market housings, most notably from Depo, for about 500. The dealer will charge about 2400. for a set. (ouch, they are only 800. as an option.) There are also "HID" look units that use regular haogen lamps, but are not worth having. For me the after market sets like Depo would be great on a lease car I am turning in, that had a broken housing or lens.
If you buy a used set, be aware that the coupe and sedan C Classe housings are not interchangeable.
If you want to buy from a trusted source, that offers real value for your money, consider MbenzNL.com.
10-20-2005, 01:43 AM
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Thanks for the help Moviela, but now i have even more questions
1. How much do bixenon projector lights cost? How about xenon projector lights?
2. Do they come with 4300 bulbs, and if so, how much more would i have to spend for a 6000?
3. What should i get for the foglights?
4. If i decide not to upgrade to projector lights at the moment, what should i buy so that i can have 6000 (or higher) low-beam HID?
5. If i do this, will i be able to transfer the parts into a projector light once i do upgrade?
6. Are there quality 8000+ bulbs out there, or is it all 300-hour crap?
Thanks!!
1. How much do bixenon projector lights cost? How about xenon projector lights?
2. Do they come with 4300 bulbs, and if so, how much more would i have to spend for a 6000?
3. What should i get for the foglights?
4. If i decide not to upgrade to projector lights at the moment, what should i buy so that i can have 6000 (or higher) low-beam HID?
5. If i do this, will i be able to transfer the parts into a projector light once i do upgrade?
6. Are there quality 8000+ bulbs out there, or is it all 300-hour crap?
Thanks!!
10-20-2005, 02:11 AM
#700
MBWorld Fanatic!
xenon - just a gas injected to allow burn to be brighter and maximizes life
of bulb as much as possible. before xenon gas, it was halogen. xenon
bulbs come in filament....as well as filament-less design.
HID - high intensity discharge - filament-less, arc technology which is the
cat's meow right now. but (!) not all HID systems are created equal. some
suck, some better than others. current HID champs are Stanley, TSX, TL, etc
which are projector bowls+lens. nearly all HID bulbs are xenon gas filled.
HID also requires ignitor and ballast, and in some cases, additional wiring
harness with relay and fusing system built in.
ballasts will cost you approx $150+ @ pair
xenon vs bi-xenon - xenons are designed for low beam applications. bi-
xenon is, for the most part, exact same thing, but they've added a electro-
mechanical shutter to block out 1/2 of the beam....and when separately
triggered, the shutter swings out of the way....exposing the full beam.
low beam HID/xenons are same, but have stationary/fixed shutter.
4300ºK is about as bright as you can get, lumens-wise. anything higher
in temperature begins a decrease in light intensity. 6000º is bluish. 8000º
is more lavender/purple. usually all above 4300º are techinically illegal in
the US. 6000º upwards induce eye strain, produce more glare to other
drivers, and invite tickets in many jurisdictions. 'sucker born every minute'
is the market in which super/zowie 2,000 gigawatt advertisements are
targeted (6000º upwards)
HID kits sold by aftermarket vendors are designed to force HID technology
into old style bulb bases (again, H1, H4, H3, H7...9000 and 4000 series etc)
but again, these are not DOT approved for use in the US and illegal....even
these are continued to be sold and many ignore and accept the risks.
projectors (bowl, lens unit) run about $100 each, to $400 for top of the line
models
D2R bulbs are about $50/pair, D2S can be found around $80/pair. they're
usually about $100/pair or so. dealers will charge a more
if you opted to forego the HID set up, yes, you can choose 6000º bulb only
which are drop in eg H4, H1, H7, etc...but their improvement in brightness
over halogen is mediocre to just barely noticeable. I believe in the USA, low
beam is limited to 55watt output so technology wise, there is a limit to
old style filament. even with super gas and secret sauces, you're not likely
to attain great gains with filament technology bulbs. usually, the color fools
you into thinking they're a whole lot brighter. usually their improvement is
so-so.
no, if you buy filament xenon, you cannot later drop them into HID
technology lighting system. again, all HID systems are filament-less
D2S, D2R, D4S. exception: you can take a filament xenon bulb and
insert into a "reflector" non HID projector system, but the advantages
are practically nil and in the laughable category. for looks only, lacking
practical use and application
do check the links provided you above eg HIDPlanet where there exists
a wonderful FAQ in the form of 'HIDPlanet University'. Your terms are
a little twisted so your questions come across a little jumbled.
Just finished my 2nd retrofit for E320 halogen: Depo headlights + E55
bixenon projectors + Hella gen3 ballasts + Phillips D2S 4300º + Dremel
and silicone sealant and elbow grease. cost came to about $900.
sorry for the blather. am still at work and bored outta my gourd.
of bulb as much as possible. before xenon gas, it was halogen. xenon
bulbs come in filament....as well as filament-less design.
HID - high intensity discharge - filament-less, arc technology which is the
cat's meow right now. but (!) not all HID systems are created equal. some
suck, some better than others. current HID champs are Stanley, TSX, TL, etc
which are projector bowls+lens. nearly all HID bulbs are xenon gas filled.
HID also requires ignitor and ballast, and in some cases, additional wiring
harness with relay and fusing system built in.
ballasts will cost you approx $150+ @ pair
xenon vs bi-xenon - xenons are designed for low beam applications. bi-
xenon is, for the most part, exact same thing, but they've added a electro-
mechanical shutter to block out 1/2 of the beam....and when separately
triggered, the shutter swings out of the way....exposing the full beam.
low beam HID/xenons are same, but have stationary/fixed shutter.
4300ºK is about as bright as you can get, lumens-wise. anything higher
in temperature begins a decrease in light intensity. 6000º is bluish. 8000º
is more lavender/purple. usually all above 4300º are techinically illegal in
the US. 6000º upwards induce eye strain, produce more glare to other
drivers, and invite tickets in many jurisdictions. 'sucker born every minute'
is the market in which super/zowie 2,000 gigawatt advertisements are
targeted (6000º upwards)
HID kits sold by aftermarket vendors are designed to force HID technology
into old style bulb bases (again, H1, H4, H3, H7...9000 and 4000 series etc)
but again, these are not DOT approved for use in the US and illegal....even
these are continued to be sold and many ignore and accept the risks.
projectors (bowl, lens unit) run about $100 each, to $400 for top of the line
models
D2R bulbs are about $50/pair, D2S can be found around $80/pair. they're
usually about $100/pair or so. dealers will charge a more
if you opted to forego the HID set up, yes, you can choose 6000º bulb only
which are drop in eg H4, H1, H7, etc...but their improvement in brightness
over halogen is mediocre to just barely noticeable. I believe in the USA, low
beam is limited to 55watt output so technology wise, there is a limit to
old style filament. even with super gas and secret sauces, you're not likely
to attain great gains with filament technology bulbs. usually, the color fools
you into thinking they're a whole lot brighter. usually their improvement is
so-so.
no, if you buy filament xenon, you cannot later drop them into HID
technology lighting system. again, all HID systems are filament-less
D2S, D2R, D4S. exception: you can take a filament xenon bulb and
insert into a "reflector" non HID projector system, but the advantages
are practically nil and in the laughable category. for looks only, lacking
practical use and application
do check the links provided you above eg HIDPlanet where there exists
a wonderful FAQ in the form of 'HIDPlanet University'. Your terms are
a little twisted so your questions come across a little jumbled.
Just finished my 2nd retrofit for E320 halogen: Depo headlights + E55
bixenon projectors + Hella gen3 ballasts + Phillips D2S 4300º + Dremel
and silicone sealant and elbow grease. cost came to about $900.
sorry for the blather. am still at work and bored outta my gourd.
Last edited by raymond g-; 10-20-2005 at 02:44 AM.
