Hugedrive

jUST GOT BACK FROM MY DEALER AND HE TOLD ME THAT I COULD ALREADY ORDER A C320 COUPE IF I WANTED TO. BUILD DATE IS JANUARY AND DELIVERY SOMETIME IN LATE MARCH!
ALTHOUGH HE HASN'T RECEIVED ANY KIND OF INFO ABOUT PRICING, HE EXPECTS THE C320 COUPE START PRICE TO BE AROUND 38000$ CAN.

C230 START PRICE IS 34750$ CAN.

Outland

So, that would be about what, 28-29 US?

I'd expect that its performance would be slightly ahead of the C320 sedan(due to the stick), so we are probably looking at low to mid 6's to 60, and high 14's.

Not bad. I'd buy one

I also considered the Z, but I needed a car with a back seat, something the Z no longer offers. Performance wise, the Z is gonna be hard to beat. After having seen a few on the street now, I can definately say its striking from the front, and downright ugly from the rear. Interior, ride quality, safety and structure are all gonna be things that fall in the C-coupes favor.

Either one would be a nice ride!

antonio

actually with the exchange, its 24-25k USD. seems a little low though. i think it will be more.

Outland

IIRC, all cars sell for less in Canada. Several US dealers take advantage of this, and will buy canadian vehicles and sell them here in the US with an aftermarket warranty, because buying them from a canadian dealer is still cheaper than buying them from the manufacturer thru the US supply chain.

Hugedrive

yeah, that's right, all cars sell for less in Canada!

AS A MATTER OF FACT, CANADA IS THE PLACE IN THE WORLD WHERE ALL CARS ARE CHEAPER! ( AT LEAST WE GOT SOMETHING RIGHT ! )

trench

Don't forget that the Canadian cars don't come with the "free" maintance, which of course isn't free - it's included in the purchase price.

- BT

Robert Schrader

A little grade school math that bypasses conversion rates and free maintenence issues...
Assuming that US230price/CAN230price = US320price/CAN320price,
then US320price = 24995/34750 * 38000 = $27,333

mrgolf25

why not get an infiniti g35 coupe?

Outland

Primarily because it wasn't even available when I bought my C230K this summer.

However, after owning the MB, I don't think I'd be interested in the Infinity...I'm sure its a nice car, but the MB has features that Ive really learned to appreciate. The 260HP in the G35 makes me jealous, but other than that, I'm happy with my car.

speedfrk

The G35 coupe is 280 HP, the sedan is 260. My friend just picked one up on sat, and it is sweet. I don't think the C-coupe has any options that you can't get on the G35. His has everything including the nav system. It is way faster than my coupe, and handles quite a bit better too. The ride is not as good, however, but not too far off the c-coupe. The Infiniti warranty is also better than Mercedes, but no free maint. Really depends on which you like better, but the G35 is a heck of a deal.

vyse

They let US dealers buy cars from Canadian dealers? When I got my C-coupe, they made me sign a contract stating I will not sell the car in the States. And since I'm pretty sure all the dealers in Canada are run by Daimler Chrysler (they dont' seem to have individual dealership names. Just "Mercedes Benz Canada"), it seems to be a policy that Mercedes themselves set.

Actually, now that I think about it, I think every car my family has gotten recently made us sign a similar contract. The VW Beetle had one, and when my father almost bought a Mini Cooper (changed mind last minute after deciding to wait for automatic), they gave him a sheet to sign saying he also will not sell it in the States.

Mike T.

Actually, what we have to sign here is not an agreement that we will not export the car, but rather an agreement that says if we do export the car within one year, we agree to pay Mercedes-Benz Canada a princely sum of money.

This sum equals the difference between the retail price of the car in Canada and the USA. In the case of our C 230 K it was about $7,700 CDN ($5,000 US) if memory serves me well.

So I think that it is highly unlikely that some US dealers are snagging Canadian cars. If they are, these cars would all have irreversable DRLs and a Transport Canada certification in the driver's door jamb. Not to mention a km/h speedo with no MPH (metric=good). And the VIN would easily identify the car as being from a Canadian production run. M-B in Europe would know. So this all seems rather improbable to me.

Plus I would think that the parent company would be rather cross with these grey market US dealers, to say the least

Oh, and the savings are even better on the Canadian C32. How about $66,950 CDN ($42,000 US)?

young

i think canadian versions may be slightly less optioned out also (including the maintenance plan as mentioned above). alloy wheels and alarm system are the 2 things i can think of (not necessarily on the coupes). even so, i was very tempted by the pricing - but i couldn't deal w/ the metric speedometer.

well, i've been driving around an e320 and the power is very adequate. i really can't tell if it has less or more than my car w/ the pulley. but it is definitely smoother. i think it may be a no brainer to get the c320 coupe now if you can afford it.

Outland

Ignorance is bliss.

Quote:

Sticker price in Canada and U.S. for two identically equipped 2002 vehicles, in U.S. dollars*
Chevrolet Avalanche 4wd
CANADA U.S.
Base $27,792 $33,585
Sunroof $782 $1,095
Total $28,574 $34,680
Difference $6,106

Dodge Caravan Sport fwd
CANADA U.S.
Base $19,299 $25,240
Conv. pkg. $814 $1,620
Total $20,113 $26,860
Difference $6,567
*Converted at a rate of $0.643 Canadian per U.S. dollar

Yes, they aren't happy about it to be sure. But this is going on to the tune of over a billion dollars a year. The buyers of the cars don't care, because they are saving money as well...and the dealer is making a killing. The Canadian dealer sells a car for a tidy profit as well. Basically, the only one not happy, is the American manufactures and the american distribution arms of the foreign mfrs.

http://www.autoweek.com/search/searc...60327&record=3

http://www.autoweek.com/search/searc...60327&record=4

newsom

Yes the G35 is a great car. But in five years everyone will just look at the G35 as just be another glorified Nissan.

And it will be dated as hell. Much like the 300ZX of the mid 80's.

The C230 will always be a Mercedes-Benz.

Outland

I agree with you that the Benz will be timeless. Same goes for any Porsche, many of the BMW's and the Audi TT. Most Japanese cars date themselves so quickly you forget why you liked it to begin with. However, the original Z is rather timeless. IIRC, it was styled by a German born American designer, and its inline six was a copy of a Mercedes inline six. Strange connection, eh?

However, I think giving the 4 seat version of the Z car to Infinity was a stroke of genius. I can't see myself in a two seater Z car anymore...if I'm gonna get a sports car its going to be a Roadster- like a Z4, a Boxster, or a Vette. But, I hear they will have a open top Z coming out...

speedfrk

You guys look at Mercedes as if they were something more than steel, glass and plastic engineered and manufactured into an automobile. They are not. Now a Ferrari, and some of the Jags are also art, but Mercedes has never made a car that qualifies as art with the possible exception of the Gullwing. They are good, well engineered cars, but not timeless. Do you really want a mid 70's base model Mercedes? That is exactly what the C230 will be in 30 years. Definately not a classic. Hell, It is butt ugly from the rear as it is now, (pun intended), it will be a Pacer in 30 years. Since I rarely keep a car more than 2 years, and usually more like a year, I am more interested in performance and value. The base C230 is an incredible value, but less so as you add the very expensive options to it. The G35 with everything on it is over $10,000 cheaper than a C320, which is it's closest competitor in MB's line, and has better performance and warranty. Let's not be car snobs here. Give credit where credit is due. Read the July 2002 Road and Track to see how all the cars in that class stack up against each other. That said, I still think the C230 is the best 25,000 car out there, but the G35 kills a comparably priced MB.

Outland

Are you going somewhere with this...or just walking around the block?

Actually, yeah, in thirty years I'm be much happier driving an old Mercedes than an old Acura or an old Nissan. Lets see, what would be more fun...a 1976 MB sedan, or a 1976 Datsun B210...or a Civic Hatchback. Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing the G35, its a steal for the money. Its going to put the already poor sellling Acura CL Coupe into the grave. For 30K, its only competition is its own brother, the Z car. I think until Pontiac's GTO comes out, it will have the screamer 30K Coupe market nailed down.

One thing that truly stinks is having to pay 3K to get a manual transmission!!!

speedfrk

Well, I would take a 76 Mercedes over a B210 of course, but that is only because you are comparing 2 different classes of cars. 30 years from now, however, I might well take a G35 sedan over a C240 because the G35 will probably still be running and affordable to keep running, and the Mercedes will not. But my main point is that a well engineered and built car has little to do with what country it comes from anymore. The Japanese keep closing the gap every year, and now Mercedes has very bad reliability ratings because they are being compared to the Japanese brands. I would gladly keep an Infiniti after the warranty ran out, but not a Mercedes. However, since I only keep a car for 1-2yrs, what matters to me is not how desirable it will be in 30 yrs, but rather how desirable it is right now. Very few people buy a car thinking more than 5 yrs into the future. Heck, in 5 yrs, the ultra sophisticated DVD nav systems of today will seem about as high tech as the cigar lighter.
BTW, the original 240Z was often called the "poor man's E-type" by the press and magazines. So a pretty blatant copy of a classic european car can survive the test of time on occasion.

Outland

I'd still take an old MB over an old Honda or Nissan...and that's what Infinity and Acura are...its just a marketing name used here in the states. Sorry, its a nice car, but that's the truth.

Quote:

30 years from now, however, I might well take a G35 sedan over a C240 because the G35 will probably still be running and affordable to keep running, and the Mercedes will not.

Bull****... Have you ever seen a beater MB? I haven't...I do however see beater Acuras, Infinitys, and even a couple of the cheap Lexi have disintegrated into beater status around here. In thirty years, the Benz will still be a Benz...the others will just be old japanese cars.

And lets be honest here...before the G35(coupe and sedan) Infinity was an also ran...its cars were just as bland(save the J30...which at least had a little styling boldness) and boring as anything Honda could ever serve up. One winner hardly elevates the Infinity brand name from "that other Japanese luxo name plate...no not Acura...you know, the one that had the really dumb ads when it came out" to the same level as MB, BMW, Audi or Lexus.

Quote:

Mercedes has very bad reliability ratings because they are being compared to the Japanese brands.

Nice blanket statement...Nissan surely does not have a stellar rating for build quality or reliability. Mitsubishi's flat out suck. Mazda? Somewhere near Ford. Subaru's aren't problems free cars. Only Honda(Acura) and Toyota(Lexus) have that gold card. And Toyota and Honda both have mini scandals brewing in terms of long term reliablity of the Honda transmissions, and the Toyota v6's. There's over 30,000 complaints just about the siezing up of Toyota(some in Lexi) v6s.

Quote:

I would gladly keep an Infiniti after the warranty ran out, but not a Mercedes. However, since I only keep a car for 1-2yrs, what matters to me is not how desirable it will be in 30 yrs, but rather how desirable it is right now. Very few people buy a car thinking more than 5 yrs into the future. Heck, in 5 yrs, the ultra sophisticated DVD nav systems of today will seem about as high tech as the cigar lighter.

I have no qualms about keeping this car after the warranty expires. In fact, Ive had no issues whatsoever....first car Ive owned that has NEVER returned to the dealer for something. My Honda went back...many, many times, so did our Ford, our Toyota(little things), Pontiac(recalls), and even the Jeep(once). My Saturn was extremely reliable, but it did suffer a squeaky seat and a leaky strut assembly...both fixed under warranty. 10years of no fuss ownership.

Cars in general are much more reliable than the rides of even 10 years ago, to say nothing of 30. Look at VW...it gets horrible ratings, yet people keep driving them. Still...I prefer a car with more emotion than a rolling maytag. I'd much rather drive a Lotus Esprit(horrible reliability...even for a Lotus) than any Acura. Its about the excitement or owning a car with personality, character, style and performance...not just the latest and greatest consumer electronics...which is what you seem to be interested in.

Quote:

BTW, the original 240Z was often called the "poor man's E-type" by the press and magazines. So a pretty blatant copy of a classic european car can survive the test of time on occasion.

I don't see the resemblence...but Ive heard that before.

At any rate, the G35 isn't styled off of anything that cool...so don't go holding your breath for it to become a classic. Hyundai actually has that title...its scrappy little Tiburon is near blatant copy of the Ferrari 456!!! The Tibby looks a 456, the Elantra GT screams Saab, and the Sonata looks a lot like SoCals C240. Hyundai should keep mining the cool cues from other cars mine ...I'd love to see a new version of the Alpine A110 or A310, the Opel GT, the BMW M1, etc.... We could collect them all! Just like cheap movie mugs at McDonalds!!!

SoCal240/6

Don't know where the "Outlands" are, but from your statement, I take it that is somewhere north of Hicksville and south of BFE.

I see countless beater MBs ever single day of the week. I can go down to my parking lot right now and see probably a dozen.

Mid 80's 240D's, and lots of other MBs from the mid 80's with dents, missing trim, faded paint and faded interiors, etc. Typical MB beaters that you can buy for $5,000 or less. A dime a dozen out here (and in most cities outside of Hicksville/Hee-Haw-type places).

A classic Newport Beach beater is a 1982, beige, diesel sedan being driven by a 55 year old lady. She got it in the divorce when her husband left her for a younger gal, in 1989.

Ask Buell. He probably sees them all the time when he ventures up here from the 'hood.

speedfrk

You can go to JD Power and plug in the models you are interested in and pick what categories you are most concerned with and it will rank the cars for you. I left all categories at "somewhat important" and it ranked the cars I picked like this:
. Toyota Avalon
2. BMW 3 Series Sedan
3. Lexus ES 300
4. Infiniti I35
5. Honda Accord Sedan
6. Acura TL
7. Volkswagen Passat
8. Audi A4/S4
9. Mercedes-Benz C-Class
10. Jaguar X-Type


If I moved the mechanical quality and long term reliability to "very important", the list looks like this:
1. Lexus ES 300
2. Infiniti I35
3. Acura TL
4. Toyota Avalon
5. Honda Accord Sedan
6. BMW 3 Series Sedan
7. Audi A4/S4
8. Mercedes-Benz C-Class
9. Volkswagen Passat
10. Jaguar X-Type


No matter how I pick the levels of importance, Mercedes C class never gets out of 8th place. And it only beats VW and the Jag X-type. Not a good showing.
In addition, Consumer Reports, Lists the c class as expecting much worse than average reliabliity, and they have dropped it from their recommended list.
Now, I don't base my purchasing decisions solely on JD Power or CR, but it is not wise to totally discount their statisical evidence either.
You have continually ignored my basic arguement which I will make again: "But my main point is that a well engineered and built car has little to do with what country it comes from anymore." Let me put it this way, It doesn't matter, from an engineering stand point whether a car is labeled Nissan or Infiniti. Good engineering and production are good engineering and production. Call the car anything you want, it doesn't change the facts.
I understand your desire to have a car that has some personality and distinctiveness "Still...I prefer a car with more emotion than a rolling maytag. I'd much rather drive a Lotus Esprit(horrible reliability..." but that doesn't mean it is a well engineered and produced car. I have had lots of cars in the "distinct" category like My 12 cyl E-type, my Europa, my Ferrari 308, my Triumph TR8, and the list goes on, but most of them were quirky, high maintenance cars that you were afraid to take on a trip.
My C230 has been in the shop 5 times already, and it has not even had it's first service done yet. They still can't get the transmission to shift right from 1st to 2nd, and I just don't have time to mess with it anymore. That's why a Japanese car like a G35 looks so good to me right now. If I need something more distintive to drive, I might just have to wait until I finish restoring my 73 Jag XJ12 SWB sedan.
BTW, if you think a Tiburon looks like a 456, we are done talking.

Outland

[QUOTE]Originally posted by speedfrk

Quote:

Now, I don't base my purchasing decisions solely on JD Power or CR, but it is not wise to totally discount their statisical evidence either.
You have continually ignored my basic arguement which I will make again:

You IMPLIED that JAPANESE CARS were intrinsically superior vehicles just by the country of origin. You did write that!

So what else is new? The Japanese have been competent engineers for decades. Style and personality are still elusive qualities for the Japanese.

The G35 is a nice looking car, not stunning, with good content and good performance. Styling wise, it reminds me of an lower slung and longer Acura RSX...which in turn looks an awful lot like a Chevy Cavalier...

Quote:

Let me put it this way, It doesn't matter, from an engineering stand point whether a car is labeled Nissan or Infiniti. Good engineering and production are good engineering and production. Call the car anything you want, it doesn't change the facts.

Its much easier to get the mechanicals right when you don't take chances. How many chances were taken with the I35? None. Its a chromed up Maxima- which is a nice car, my friend just bought one for his wife,...but hardly worth the extra dough just to say you drive and Infinity...most people will go "A what?" anyway, until you tell them its based on the Maxima. Facts are that reliable and bland does not qualify as 'stunning engineering'.
FWD, 8 year old chassis, and a beam axle suspension? C'mon, for this much money, they can't even make an IRS? A lowly Saturn L has a more sophisticated suspension than the Maxima/I35.

Up till now, Infinity has done nothing to be a standout. Its true. Don't believe me? Go look at the sales figures...the whole brand name is on life support. Sales of the brand new Q45 are so bad, that they can't give them away. The G35 may go down as the car that saved the Infinity marketing name...much like the new Altima(and a lot of French Money) pulled Nissan back from the brink. Its a nice car because of the content, not because of knock your socks off engineering, styling, or design. The VQ engine has been around quite awhile, and is used in many, many Nissans. Great value. I agreed with you originally that it was a bargain price for what you get.

Quote:

I understand your desire to have a car that has some personality and distinctiveness "Still...I prefer a car with more emotion than a rolling maytag. I'd much rather drive a Lotus Esprit(horrible reliability..." but that doesn't mean it is a well engineered and produced car. I have had lots of cars in the "distinct" category like My 12 cyl E-type, my Europa, my Ferrari 308, my Triumph TR8, and the list goes on, but most of them were quirky, high maintenance cars that you were afraid to take on a trip.

When you build for the masses, and build 400,000 copies of the same boxy, dull sedan, you can afford to throw 3 dozen engineers at a quirky window switch, or redesign the vavletrain to eliminate frequent maintenance. I don't like dull or vanilla cars.

Frankly, if all you want is trouble free driving and reliability, a nice simple pushrod motor'd Buick should suit you fine. The Buick 3.8 is so reliable that Honda bought dozens of them to tear apart prior to building its own V6 for the accord. With proper Oil changes, they run forever, with virtually NO maintenance.

Quote:

My C230 has been in the shop 5 times already, and it has not even had it's first service done yet. They still can't get the transmission to shift right from 1st to 2nd, and I just don't have time to mess with it anymore. That's why a Japanese car like a G35 looks so good to me right now.

I'm sorry to hear your car has had problems. Mine, has not. I happily revel in its quirks(the remote release for the hatch, where the window switches are at, etc), and enjoy driving it. If you like the G35, get it...you don't need to win us over before you buy it.

Quote:

If I need something more distintive to drive, I might just have to wait until I finish restoring my 73 Jag XJ12 SWB sedan.

A pre-Ford Jag? Now there's an unreliable car But, it has lots of style and class!

Quote:

BTW, if you think a Tiburon looks like a 456, we are done talking.

Let me get this straight, you can see the bloated lines of the Etype in the 240Z(the nacelles maybe), yet you don't recognize the 456 profile in the Tiburon? Its a closer match to the Ferrari than the Z ever was to the Jag. Maybe you should have your eyes examined...




I can see you put a lot of stock in what the media says about MB's, so perhaps you'll accept it from them.

Edmunds:
Its not just us Yanks, either...from The Australian:

speedfrk

"You IMPLIED that JAPANESE CARS were intrinsically superior vehicles just by the country of origin"

No, I implied that Mercedes are NOT intrinsically superior. In fact, I have stated several times that no car is intrinsically superior based on what country it is made and/or designed in.

"Maybe you should have your eyes examined..." Umm, maybe you should have your head examined because the 240Z was not just styled to look like an E-type, it was designed to handle and perform like one. They didn't get it exactly right, but it is a lot closer comparison than a Tiburon and a Ferrari. The first time I saw a Tiburon, I thought, wow, they copied a Mustang- not wow, they copied a Ferrari.

"Frankly, if all you want is trouble free driving and reliability, a nice simple pushrod motor'd Buick should suit you fine"
I'll take an 87 GNX.

If they have a community college out there in "outland" , you should go take a course in logic. You would drive the Professor insane. Let's just agree to disagree.

young

(yes, i'm quoting myself! )

ok, i take it back somewhat. i've had the e320 for 3 days now (+the weekend ) and i think the 230k w/ the pulley is faster than the e320. i just feel that it's a bit slow when merging on to the highway and from a dead start.

anyway, just my impressions.

and now, back to your regular broadcast...