Glyn M Ruck

We agree generally on all counts - But specifically the Benz I4s do become breathless at high RPM due to design restraints such as crap volumetric efficiency - blower & all - more so the M111. The small V6s rev more easily. Once the engine is spinning reciprocating mass is not a train smash on a short stroke well balanced engine that does not suffer from undue resonance. The small V6s will maintain a higher top speed all day in markets like SA with no restrictions imposed by Benz.

The M111 is a real sleeper & can be modified to produce good HP & torque for it's capacity - albeit in a rather crude & rough way which is why Benz dropped it - too many complaints about rough running for a premium brand. But a willing high revver it has never been where the baby V6s love to rev.

It's not all about Torque either. Formula 1 engines produce surprisingly low torque but all screaming hp at high RPM. But then at low RPM they can't pull the skin off a rice pudding which is why launching them can be a challenge & they require launching at high RPM with anti stall control.

Comments from the UK press on the M111
"Coarse. Noisy. Crude. Hardly words you'd expect to hear applied to a car bearing the famous Mercedes badge. Yet, when describing the company's four-cylinder petrol engines – the 180, 200 and 230 Kompressor M111 versions – all are entirely accurate.

In mid-2002, Mercedes introduced a new 4-cylinder engine family to replace the notorious existing four-cylinders. Compared with the old 4-cylinder, the M271 family is much smoother, quieter and much more frugal. Mercedes finally has a world-class four-cylinder engine to match its superb V6, V8 and V12."

Glyn M Ruck

They only dropped the 2.5 in the US for the W204 - available & much liked in Europe.

Glyn M Ruck

I don't understand your logic. The MB & Honda autos "hang in a gear when you got off the gas" as you put it - because they lock up their torque converters for the sake of efficiency & good handling - i.e. they behave just like a manual when you lift off the throttle - You are hard coupled to the engine & run against compression. All ideal for proper car control. No changing up in the middle of a corner like ****ty old autos of yore.

What do you want. The torque converter clutches to disengage when you lift off the throttle & slip like hell like an old yank tank auto?

Unless you are a completely incompetent driver I'm sure you don't declutch your manual when you lift off the throttle. So I don't get your point.

Modern autos are as close to driving a manual as you get once you learn to drive them. The only decent other option is a double clutch transmission which is great.

Give me a Benz auto long before their clunky manual transmissions & crap clutch action.

johnand

I disagree. The 2.5L and 7G, just need to driven differently then most are used to. Rev that *****, and the engine and transmission perform flawlessly. Yes, at 1st, my 2.5L and 7G were frustrating to drive, until I learned to drive it. Once I learned to drive it, my mileage improved as well. I consistently get high 20's for mileage on the highway, and I drive the car HARD, as it really is begging to be driven.

My buddy has a 7G in his C350, and I agree that it works perfectly. My C230 and 7G done don't work quite as well as his C350, but pretty close.

+1 30hp and 40ft/lbs IS a world of difference.

91RS, I would suggest going to the dealer and getting the latest flash software for the ECM and TCM. It makes a NIGHT AND DAY difference in the way the 7G and 2.5L engine perform. My car with the latest flashes, is TOTALLY different then when my car was delivered.

johnand

I totally agree. You and I seem to be among the minority, but I LOVE my 7G automatic compared to all the other autos I have drove in the past. It is so wonderful to actually have engine braking and a transmission that isn't afraid to downshift when braking. For my driving it is the perfect transmission, and I would not trade it for the 6sp manual for anything. Every time I drive my old Sentra and am stuck in traffic, I wish I drove the Benz that day

Glyn M Ruck

All wise advice John. People are so used to stump pulling torque that they simply don't understand our little V6s. They love to be revved & are great fun as a result. The power & torque curves go up in a virtually straight line together with RPM so rev the damn things - they don't object. I rev mine all the time & the wear levels in the oil are ultra low. Wish I had a 7G - set up right it's great & more cogs are marvelous for an engine that likes revving.

OneOfaKindTrini

It Probably Wont MaKe a WorlD Of DiffernCe But The Gains Would Be NotiCeable.

LILBENZ230

Okay, you make good points. I've never spent any extensive time with the M272 C230. All I know is that in the 125 miles or so I have driven one it was a frustrating experience. The car didn't have the punch of my M271 and the transmission seemed to have too many gears.

I really love the 2007 model, though. So smooth and absolutely gorgeous from every angle. The wheels, exhaust tip, and lip spoiler really make it look better than the already-attractive 2005-2006.

FrankW

agreed with johnand

one of the friend has a 2007 and I had some pretty good seat time in it. you really can't drive granny style and expect the transmission to not hunt for gears. of course this is not to say you need to go WOT all the time, but you do need a slightly heavier input to have the transmission hit each gear in the engine sweet spot.

I had thought it hunt for gear too much as well until I figured out how to drive it. It also doesn't hurt the avg mpg at all.

91RS

That is probably the main thing I do like about this transmission!

Don't worry, I'm way ahead of you on that one. I'm going to complain about the jerky first gear operation and 1-2 shift, so they should just reprogram the TCM for that under warranty and then I'll just pay to get the ECM updated.

maverik259

What are you talking about clunky manuals? I've owned a nissan 350z 6 speeed and have driven my buds mustang on several occasions and they were like driving a mac truck around town. Then switching to the '05 c230k ss it was smooth sailing...its a much smoother drive than many others!

Glyn M Ruck

Benz MTs have improved but they are far from state of the art. A basic Toyota has a better switch like gearchange. Benz MTs are clunky & their synchro is slow.

FrankW

in other words it's smooth because it's slow?

Glyn M Ruck

No - It's easy to beat the synchromesh - Excuse my SA terminology. You can't snap change a Benz box. It baulks & it's clunky

Aside from my opinion which I stand by - I think Benz MTs suck. They have certainly improved - YES.

Have you ever read a review on a Benz manual car that has been complimentary? Even vaguely complimentary? If so please post it. The European, our local & the Aus motoring press always crucify them & I'm afraid I think they are correct.

I have never understood why Benz don't just fit a ZF or Getrag MT. They obviously don't put the effort into their MTs that go into their auto's. In fact I think they would be quite happy not to sell MT cars.

FrankW

because 90% of the MB buyer buys Auto. people buy BMW or Audi if they want a manual Germany vehicle of the same entry level luxury.

Glyn M Ruck

Correct!

FrankW

if only we can get MB's sequential box that's available to the rest of the world for the lower powered MBs. that would be pretty neat. except I've heard that box is also a POS. They would only shove it into 240 and smaller engine displacement.

Glyn M Ruck

Oh dear - I have no experience of it - 240/250 or lower

LILBENZ230

FWIW, the 6MT shifter on the 135i is okay but the 6MT on my old 2007 Civic Si was 100x better.

91RS

I would agree with that. The only manual "Benz" I've driven is a 3.2L Crossfire, and that transmission did not like the way I drove it! I hit it hard into second and grinded some gears! I think my favorite manuals are the T56 (Corvette/Camaro) and the Cobalt has a really nice transmission and clutch. I drove a last generation Accord manual and I liked that very similar to the Cobalt.

SickSpeedMonte

Just a few comments-

A high revving engine is most often achieved with an "oversquare" bore/stroke ratio (meaning the bore is much greater than the stroke, again look into the F1) rather than a small displacement. Lower max piston speeds and accelerations for the same RPM, and a large bore allows for large valves to fill them with air and release the exhaust.

My C230 SS 2.5L M272, 7G gets 25.3 mpg mixed city and highway. To the fellow that was getting 22 highway, something was wrong with that car.

The 7G is good and bad in my experience. I love the engine braking and downshifting during braking to achieve it. It seems to downshift into the proper gear upon acceleration, but the amount of time required to do it leaves something to be desired. The manual gear selection with the bump shifter takes WAY too much time to respond, rendering it useless for just about anything other than holding a gear through a turn. Fortunately, if you mash it in 'D', the trans will wind out the engine to redline.

johnand

Matt, if you get a chance to drive that 07 again, try to be much heavier on the throttle and it should perform closer to what your 05 does. Like, I told 91RS though, my car performs so much better after the software flashes, could be the 07 you drove didn't have the updates.

samaritrey

I don't think Mercedes made that 6 speed. i agree that it suck though i drove both a 6 speed crossfire and a 5 speed auto and like the auto way better. i would actually get the srt-6 if i wanted a two door.

johnand

SickSpeedMonte, I know I keep harping on this, but have you had the latest flashes to the ECM and TCM? The "delay" that you are experiencing is darn near non existent in my car since the flashes. I used to be frustrated by the delay as well, but now, mine shifts almost instantly whether automatically, or manually via the shifter.

Glyn M Ruck

Absolutely - music to my ears - someone who understands - F1s are so oversquare with such a short stroke that they almost just vibrate. This is why their torque delivery is low but who cares for that application. High RPM, low piston swept speeds, wonderful breathing & huge horsepower. (easy to control balance & resonance)

Listen to John regarding the 7G - our W204 has the latest software flash & behaves very well. We never had the 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 1st jerk.