advans

Hey guys, since this is an issue between two W203 members, I'm posting it here.

So most of you know, I sold my 19" TSW Bremmas to Gordan (Joyofcola), a very reputable and helpful member here on mbworld, back in mid September 2009.

I have refinished my wheels back in July 2009, and detailed them on 9/21/2009 for shipping to Gordon. (Below is a link to the thread of excitement of wheel detailing I did.)

Link to the thread the day I cleaned the wheels

So I sold the wheels to Gordon, whom live in Vancouver, BC, Canada.
I packaged the wheels with Tire lip foam protector thing that usually comes with new wheels, self cling wrap, heavy duty ropes, a 1/2" foam piece to put between the lips, circular cardboard pieces on both ends, and heavy duty wire meshed tape. It was 10000% durable, no way it would break apart.

I shipped out the wheels via UPS Ground, to Canada, Which I have shipped with a underestimated shipping charge, and I took a major hit from the shipping cost.

Well, I shipped the wheels in 3 packages. Package 1 and 2 were "Two Wheels Each" and Package three was a small package of bolts, and goodies.

Gordon asked me to fill out the declared value of the item as "Gift" so he would not be taxed any amounts since it is out of country. I did as he had told, and UPS Stated that the lowest declared value close to gift, I can fill out is $1.00 USD. Which I did.

Unfortunately, UPS decided to send the wheels, damaged. They had opened up all my packaging and basically "threw" the wheels around, damaged the wheels, etc. Gordon received all four wheels raw, without any sort of packaging what so ever.

When I received the email from Gordon, I was in shock, and immediately initiated a claim with UPS.

UPS insisted on the claim not being approved because of that declared value amount. The original form I have filled out (before I remembered that Gordon wanted this to be written as gift, was $1000 each rim, so $4000 total, I still have a copy of that receipt).

I have been contacting UPS nearly every single day about this situation, and have been quite frustrating on my end. I took 3 personal days off work, and went to the UPS center, in Maspeth, Queens to deal with this issue.

A friend of mine has been trying to internally deal with UPS about this situation and have been working with the claims department with this, I'm just awaiting an answer from him.

Now, Gordon asked for a full refund, including the extra amount to ship it back here to New York. I am not a vendor on this board, and this is a personal sale, so i don't think a "full refund" would work.

I asked UPS to take a "Damage-Call-Tag" and send them back here for repair, but UPS insisted that this was a "non declared value item" so that cannot be issued.

Gordon insisted on me paying for the full repair of the wheels. But I told him that I will give him every single dollar that UPS pays me back for the damages. Which I believe is a fair count, even if UPS paid me more than his repairs.

Gordon said he got quoted the amount of $250+/- repair for EACH RIM, and over here in New York, I got quoted for $150+/- full repair+paint.

Those who know me personally know that I keep my rims, fresh. And the locals who have seen me frustrated with this whole ordeal knows that I'm not f-ing around.

Gordon insisted on escalating this into claim with "Paypal, item shipped as not declared".

I am just putting this out there, and seeing for your input. This has been quite frustrating for me, and Gordon as well.

below are photos of the wheels the day before I packaged and shipped them out.

advans

Oh, Please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to badmouth Gordon, he's a good guy, and have been quite patient with this whole ordeal.

Mu9enx

I'm sorry about the whole situation, and I don't have any information that would be of use. I just hope this dilemma could be resolved without any bitterness

TemjinX2

when i fixed my bent rim it was about $160 a rim. So your pricing seems more correct, but since he's in canada, they probably charge for more everything.

From what i could tell from your post, it sounded like the guy decided to give up the assurance being covered for full value to get out of paying for taxes.

Its like giving up the 3yr warranty on a new car so he doesn't have to pay the sales tax. I think it was dumb move on his part to save a few bucks. They have declared value for exactly this reason.

Since he had you declare the value of $1...technically he's only entitled to $1 right, since thats the value he wanted.

Maybe meet in the middle and just pay for half the refinish.

acr2001

Sorry I can't offer any help, but you're not alone. UPS has screwed everyone I know including myself. The fact that they are so profitable shows how much crap the American consumer is willing to put up with.

Any time you ship something heavy and / or large through UPS you have to package it with the assumption that it will be DRAGGED BEHIND THE TRUCK to the destination. They damaged my new rims which I received last week. The box looked like it had been run over. Their "claims" department does everything possible to avoid paying out. I suggest suing UPS in small claims court. This will cost you a minimal fee (less than $50) and UPS will either pay up or they will have to pay a lawyer to represent them. Either way it costs UPS money which sure makes me feel better.

The next time I have to ship something like rims I will video tape the packaging process right up to the point it's handed off to UPS. Then I'll have the receiving party take video as the item is dropped off. With that in hand suing their asses should be a lot easier. Crazy, I know.

B189s

As a neutral side, I think it's not fair to Advans if he has to do a full refund or any portion of refund to Joyofcola

I imported so many stuffs from the state, some were from this forum and I NEVER EVER lowered the declared value to $1. It's too risky!

I usually reduced it to 50-70% of my good's value.

One thing I don't get is how come UPS opened the boxes and didn't box it up properly after checking the goods?

Anyways, GL solving this guys!

iJimpanzee

Correction to some still ignorant:

But the packages were opened by Customs, and not by UPS.


And yes. Having Advans pay for anything would be outrageous.
I mean... he has packaged everything properly.


The BUYER wanted the title of "Gift" and Lowest Possible Value.
So basically... UPS will argue that the value was worth $1, and the payout will be that amount =/


What I'm wondering is:

If it was already a "Gift"

why was the value entered as $1?
Why not what it's actually worth, as giving a gift shouldn't cost money =/

TemjinX2

because you still have to pay taxes on gifts. Unless its to immediate family usually.

So he wanted to pay taxes on $1 not $4000.

TemjinX2

yeah thats what i usually do as well when i sell items out of country.

HellsAngel

You should never declare an item as gift, unless you are afraid of huge custom fees when shipping from china... so its Gordon's fault... UPS will not refund you, for them the wheels cost 1$ and they have the total right to claim so !
the fact that you took 3 days of work is already convincing that you did your best... last thing : do you have dated pictures of the wheels ?

FrankW

this may seem harsh to both side, but both Gary and Gordon deserve a :facepalm:

first of all, :facepalm: for Gary for trying to be nice and follow the wishes of the buyer to declare the wheels as gift.

second, :facepalm: for Gordon for asking full refund knowing the fact the damage isn't caused by Gary.

now on the UPS part, I've shipped many set of wheels Internationally and the simple answer to those that ask if it can be declared as "gift" is always NO. If you do mark it as gift you would still need to declare the right amount of value because that will be the ONLY value they look at when you purchase the insurance. NEVER declare anything with value lower than at least half of the actual value. Customs agents are not idiots. Obviously they started tossing it around because the declare value is next to nothing.

IF Gordon knew the declared value was also the insurance coverage value would he have asked to be declared "as low as possible"? probably not.

IF Gary knew the declared value was also the insurance coverage would he have lowered the value to $1 as Gordon requested? probably not either.

fair solution: split the cost for fixing the wheels. however $250 per wheel is outrageous and sounds more like an excuse to try and send back the wheels for refund. I'm sure there are other Canada member that knows places with price close to Gary's quote.

FrankW

no mike, anything below $60 declared as gift will not be taxed.

anything over $60 will be taxed accordingly to their junk....i mean rule book.

nothing to do with who you send it to.

SickSpeedMonte

I agree with this statement. You reduced the declared value as requested by the buyer. When they requested to have a declared value of $1, they are assuming the risk of damage without recourse.

Advans gains NOTHING by reducing the declared value. Why should he assume the risk when the financial benefits only help the buyer?

advans

thanks for your input guys.

I'm still in the process of working things out with UPS and Gordon.

One thing is, when I buy used things on the forums, I assume I'll need to pay some "fix" to it.

I got my Multispokes off "MACHC5", I paid him $1050 for them, and I had to buy "Brand new tires" because according to him, "new" tires means low thread tires. I didn't say anything.

I'm just unhappy that I'll have to spit up extra for these stupid wheels. I did someone a favor and tried to make everyone happy. But I sold these wheels for $1100-5% paypal fee= $1045-$360+/- shipping charge (i got murdered for shipping charges...sigh)= $685, and cost of packaging. I'm pratically giving these out for free.

Now if I have to pay something out of my OWN pocket? thats insane. I'm just a seller, I'm not a vendor.

JLD2k3

Sale of a used good requires only clear title. There is no claim by buyer for refund by seller because he received the good. If seller is a retail store selling new goods, then buyer has recourse to return the item for a full refund. Seller followed the instructions for shipping provided by the buyer.

Here is the sticky part...Seller and buyer do not have a clearly defined transfer of title established. Typically, buyer accepts title transfer upon shipment by seller, knowing that the goods are insured by the courier. International shipments often declare title transfer upon arrival at customs. Without clearly defining the transfer of title switch, there is no way to clearly establish whose responsibility the damage is.

Buyer and seller have committed fraud by falsely stating the value of the goods sold. I know that sounds bad, but it's the legal interpretation of what transpired (no, I am not a lawyer, but I manage multi-million dollar projects for an international firm and this issue has come about many times and this is the answer we get from Legal). Seller committed the fraud and buyer is complicit to fraud. Therefore, both parties are negligent per se. The seller lives in NY, which is a comparative negligence state, which means that the judge would weigh how the two parties' respective negligent acts contributed to the damage and split the damage repair value between the two.

Those are the facts and the rules and the typical operating principles. Now, if I may offer what I think would happen if this went to court:

The judge would likely rule in favor of the seller as he has nothing to gain from falsifying the value of the goods as his shipping charges are (as stated by seller) a pass-through cost to the buyer. The buyer requested the falsification and stood to benefit from it and he will be on the hook for whatever condition the goods are delivered in. The seller performed his due diligence to package the goods appropriately to ensure safe arrival.

As far as UPS is concerned, another poster alluded to the idea that Customs opened the package, not UPS. If the value were properly stated, then the goods would have been handled properly, most likely. I have never had any problem with Customs because we value everything we ship for their replacement value. UPS only has $1 to hold up in this deal. It's a hard pill to swallow, but that's the reality of it.

LILBENZ230

Sounds like Gary did what was asked and Gordon assumed the risk. Now he doesn't have to pay taxes on $4,000 - instead he has to pay to have the rims fixed. It's a wash.

Gary - obviously you're a good guy. For trying to do the right thing.

advans

^thanks man,

I'm just hoping everything works out. I don't want Gordon to be f*cked over and I wouldn't wanna be as well.

Thanks for the input guys.

One thing I'm quite upset at is that Gordon wanted to file a paypal claim, since he had paid me through paypal. I'm not happy about that, but if he insist to, it's up to him.

again,
thank you all for your input.

tommy

CLICK ME

This should resolve everything.

I agree with the majority - if you try to bend the rules on the taxes, you gotta take your lumps if it affects something else. Good luck.

infected

The price Gordon was quoted to repair the wheels is pretty bang on to the average wheel repair costs around here.

TruTaing

If Gary wants to be nice, then ya two can just split the cost, but I kinda feel like this falls on Gordon for asking you to declare the value so low. So, to be fair, I feel like Gordon probably should fork out the $$ to cover the damage/repair

Moral of this thread: Its not worth declaring the value of your shipped items any amount lower than what its worth. :x

RW C55

+1. its usually 150~200, +mounting/balance + tax = ~250

HellsAngel

i dont understand how shipping works... you buy wheels online, they charge you between 30 and 200+ on shipping, you go to ship they ask for 300+...

this happened with me when i wanted to buy brabus lips, supershyguy asked 600$ LOL, "drb930" asked 766$ (thats what UPS quoted the guy)....They want me to pay 766$ for 350$ items... while someone i know shipped his body kit for 260$ because he baught it from a vendor.....

anyway back to topic, gary shouldnt pay anything and there is nothing more to be said.

TemjinX2

usually volume shippers get a significant discount from ups. It also depends on the box dimensions not just weight. But yeah i ordered 4 wheels online for around $100 for shipping.

HellsAngel

brabus front & rear lips arent very heavy, and the dimensions are not huge, we are not talking about a full body kit, its just 2 lips.... anyway i dont want to flood the thread....

Benzben

Advans, I think you've gone above and beyond the call of duty here. Gordon made his bed, tried to take advantage of the system so he would be out less money on the taxation issue, took the risk on damage/declared value, and now he's got to lie in it.

It occurs to me that maybe the wheels ended up in the condition that they did because customs knew that Gordon was trying to work the system and figured they'd teach him a lesson. They might not have purposely done damage to the wheels, but I'm sure that might explain why they didn't tenderly wrap them back up just as perfectly as it sounds like Advans packaged them.