pistons
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From: Raleigh, NC
2005 C230K, 2019 Honda CR-V, '74 Lotus Europa
I just wanted to say thanks for all the help I got from all of you and to wish you all a wonderful holiday
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Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Orange County, CA
GMC - Miata - Trek - P-Car
It’s probably reasonable in this instance to set aside conversion errors owing to language differences. I’d wager a round at the local watering hole that your standalone ECU shouldn’t be commanding “13 af, 40 deg total timing at 6000 rpm.” Running ‘em too lean with too much spark advance is a quick way to destroy an otherwise sound engine.
Don’t follow Canadian touring car racing, although I certainly admire your willingness to get after it in a M271-equipped coupé. Not going to disagree with your forensic metallurgist's findings. Note MBUSA’s policy is that the head never be surfaced in the event of measurable warping or other deck irregularities. Its casting is already woefully thin as delivered. Tossing it into the nearest recycling bin is warranted should it prove defective; it’s merely another consumable.
Nonsense. Know you mean well in spite of your hellacious advice. You’re aware that the 1.8-liter M271 has a nominal compression ratio of 8.7:1, yes?
Several here have successfully utilized artificial aspiration of 17+ psi with their OE pistons and long-block fully intact. Barring manufacturing and operational defects, judicious tuning is imperative to help ensure reasonable service life. Machining a cast piston’s crown -save for minimal relieving to accommodate higher lift and/or longer duration camshaft timing events- is an invitation to disaster. Did you notice 427cobra’s pistons have already proven to be too weak for his circumstance? Additional peripheral deck height clearance often counterintuitively increases detonation by reducing swirl-induced quench properties.
Trust you’ll someday share the nuances behind your “10-second” E55 transplant. :y
Don’t follow Canadian touring car racing, although I certainly admire your willingness to get after it in a M271-equipped coupé. Not going to disagree with your forensic metallurgist's findings. Note MBUSA’s policy is that the head never be surfaced in the event of measurable warping or other deck irregularities. Its casting is already woefully thin as delivered. Tossing it into the nearest recycling bin is warranted should it prove defective; it’s merely another consumable.
Several here have successfully utilized artificial aspiration of 17+ psi with their OE pistons and long-block fully intact. Barring manufacturing and operational defects, judicious tuning is imperative to help ensure reasonable service life. Machining a cast piston’s crown -save for minimal relieving to accommodate higher lift and/or longer duration camshaft timing events- is an invitation to disaster. Did you notice 427cobra’s pistons have already proven to be too weak for his circumstance? Additional peripheral deck height clearance often counterintuitively increases detonation by reducing swirl-induced quench properties.
Trust you’ll someday share the nuances behind your “10-second” E55 transplant. :y
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,258
Likes: 168
From: So. Oregon Coast
C230 Sport Coup + 2006 W164 ML350 + 99 Ford Escort RIP
Well, just catching up on this thread.
Had to laugh, so many haters.
Reminded me of a guy who posted he'd made his own crank pulley,
removed the SC muffler, posted a nice vid of his red 02 C230 coupe,
and before we could find out how to remove the
SC muffler or what it was, he was banned for merely suggesting that
he might make more pullies and maybe he might sell them.
He never did.
That pulley eventually turned up for sale, I think here maybe.
Oh the irony.
There are some vids out there of a C230 sedan race car.
I've only seen other C230 coupe racecar, and that was the Autohauz guys car,
w/ the 2.3L. Much more robust engine.
BTW. they were selling some carbon fiber bits they had custom mfg'd and
a special racing diff and tranny, not to mention the whole car.
Nice to see someone campaigning an Orion Blue coupe!
Had to laugh, so many haters.
Reminded me of a guy who posted he'd made his own crank pulley,
removed the SC muffler, posted a nice vid of his red 02 C230 coupe,
and before we could find out how to remove the
SC muffler or what it was, he was banned for merely suggesting that
he might make more pullies and maybe he might sell them.
He never did.
That pulley eventually turned up for sale, I think here maybe.
Oh the irony.
There are some vids out there of a C230 sedan race car.
I've only seen other C230 coupe racecar, and that was the Autohauz guys car,
w/ the 2.3L. Much more robust engine.
BTW. they were selling some carbon fiber bits they had custom mfg'd and
a special racing diff and tranny, not to mention the whole car.
Nice to see someone campaigning an Orion Blue coupe!
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2013 UFO
Thanks for the impute Moviela, I am having the pistons analyzed to find out what exactly has happened, after a closer look it looks like they did not melt, it looks more like they are broken.
This car is running in the cctcc world championship and we are restricted in the modifications we can make, so no turbo.
Her are a couple of pictures of piston and modifications to the compressor, and the fastest C230 on the track.
This car is running in the cctcc world championship and we are restricted in the modifications we can make, so no turbo.
Her are a couple of pictures of piston and modifications to the compressor, and the fastest C230 on the track.
Amazing piece of machine.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,005
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2013 UFO
Check this out (off topic) but I think you must see it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmNy-ajRV0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmNy-ajRV0U
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Posts: 5,537
Likes: 8
2006 C350 Sport 6MT
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,152
Likes: 29
From: Sydney, Australia
190D 2.5 (x2), 190E 2.6, W202 C240,W202 C43 (C55), W210 E55, W212 E250CDI
What is the top piston ring gap?
Are there any score marks in the cylinder bore?
Can you post a top and side picture of one of the other pistons.
What spark plugs (temperature) are you using? they would need to be 1 to 2 ranges colder than standard.
Which side did the piston break? intake or exhaust side?
Have a look at this link http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...-02_en_web.pdf
Are there any score marks in the cylinder bore?
Can you post a top and side picture of one of the other pistons.
What spark plugs (temperature) are you using? they would need to be 1 to 2 ranges colder than standard.
Which side did the piston break? intake or exhaust side?
Have a look at this link http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...-02_en_web.pdf
Last edited by Ausmbtech; Dec 29, 2010 at 04:37 AM.
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Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: sept-iles, quebec, canada
C280 2007 4matic
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: centennial, CO
2003 c240
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
2003 C230 racecar
It’s probably reasonable in this instance to set aside conversion errors owing to language differences. I’d wager a round at the local watering hole that your standalone ECU shouldn’t be commanding “13 af, 40 deg total timing at 6000 rpm.” Running ‘em too lean with too much spark advance is a quick way to destroy an otherwise sound engine.
Don’t follow Canadian touring car racing, although I certainly admire your willingness to get after it in a M271-equipped coupé. Not going to disagree with your forensic metallurgist's findings. Note MBUSA’s policy is that the head never be surfaced in the event of measurable warping or other deck irregularities. Its casting is already woefully thin as delivered. Tossing it into the nearest recycling bin is warranted should it prove defective; it’s merely another consumable.
Nonsense. Know you mean well in spite of your hellacious advice. You’re aware that the 1.8-liter M271 has a nominal compression ratio of 8.7:1, yes?
Several here have successfully utilized artificial aspiration of 17+ psi with their OE pistons and long-block fully intact. Barring manufacturing and operational defects, judicious tuning is imperative to help ensure reasonable service life. Machining a cast piston’s crown -save for minimal relieving to accommodate higher lift and/or longer duration camshaft timing events- is an invitation to disaster. Did you notice 427cobra’s pistons have already proven to be too weak for his circumstance? Additional peripheral deck height clearance often counterintuitively increases detonation by reducing swirl-induced quench properties.
Trust you’ll someday share the nuances behind your “10-second” E55 transplant.
Don’t follow Canadian touring car racing, although I certainly admire your willingness to get after it in a M271-equipped coupé. Not going to disagree with your forensic metallurgist's findings. Note MBUSA’s policy is that the head never be surfaced in the event of measurable warping or other deck irregularities. Its casting is already woefully thin as delivered. Tossing it into the nearest recycling bin is warranted should it prove defective; it’s merely another consumable.
Nonsense. Know you mean well in spite of your hellacious advice. You’re aware that the 1.8-liter M271 has a nominal compression ratio of 8.7:1, yes?
Several here have successfully utilized artificial aspiration of 17+ psi with their OE pistons and long-block fully intact. Barring manufacturing and operational defects, judicious tuning is imperative to help ensure reasonable service life. Machining a cast piston’s crown -save for minimal relieving to accommodate higher lift and/or longer duration camshaft timing events- is an invitation to disaster. Did you notice 427cobra’s pistons have already proven to be too weak for his circumstance? Additional peripheral deck height clearance often counterintuitively increases detonation by reducing swirl-induced quench properties.
Trust you’ll someday share the nuances behind your “10-second” E55 transplant.
Thanks for the advice, after the engine is back together I plan on doing more dyno work and start with something like 11 af and 25 deg timing and go from there
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
2003 C230 racecar
What is the top piston ring gap?
Are there any score marks in the cylinder bore?
Can you post a top and side picture of one of the other pistons.
What spark plugs (temperature) are you using? they would need to be 1 to 2 ranges colder than standard.
Which side did the piston break? intake or exhaust side?
Have a look at this link http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...-02_en_web.pdf
Are there any score marks in the cylinder bore?
Can you post a top and side picture of one of the other pistons.
What spark plugs (temperature) are you using? they would need to be 1 to 2 ranges colder than standard.
Which side did the piston break? intake or exhaust side?
Have a look at this link http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...-02_en_web.pdf
12 thou
Are there any score marks in the cylinder bore?
No score marks
Can you post a top and side picture of one of the other pistons.
Tomorrow I’ll have some picks for you
\
What spark plugs (temperature) are you using? they would need to be 1 to 2 ranges colder than standard.
I’ll check that to night.
Which side did the piston break? intake or exhaust side?
Peace missing on intake side, some melting on exhaust side
Last edited by 427cobra; Dec 30, 2010 at 09:32 AM.
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2013 UFO
Considering we do live in the states.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: sept-iles, quebec, canada
C280 2007 4matic
12.5 af is perfect for power, anything richer is bad for power.
if it was my engine, i will try around 20-25 deg... checking egt...not enough timing = egt high, too much timing = egt high, you will see a sweet spot between too high and too low, thats the best point for reliability.
wich fuel you run un your engine ?
yvan
if it was my engine, i will try around 20-25 deg... checking egt...not enough timing = egt high, too much timing = egt high, you will see a sweet spot between too high and too low, thats the best point for reliability.
wich fuel you run un your engine ?
yvan
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,152
Likes: 29
From: Sydney, Australia
190D 2.5 (x2), 190E 2.6, W202 C240,W202 C43 (C55), W210 E55, W212 E250CDI
What is the top piston ring gap?
12 thou
Are there any score marks in the cylinder bore?
No score marks
Can you post a top and side picture of one of the other pistons.
Tomorrow I’ll have some picks for you
\
What spark plugs (temperature) are you using? they would need to be 1 to 2 ranges colder than standard.
I’ll check that to night, does someone know the original number.
Which side did the piston break? intake or exhaust side?
Peace missing on intake side, some melting on exhaust side
12 thou
Are there any score marks in the cylinder bore?
No score marks
Can you post a top and side picture of one of the other pistons.
Tomorrow I’ll have some picks for you
\
What spark plugs (temperature) are you using? they would need to be 1 to 2 ranges colder than standard.
I’ll check that to night, does someone know the original number.
Which side did the piston break? intake or exhaust side?
Peace missing on intake side, some melting on exhaust side
Have you considered getting the tops of the pistons coated with a ceramic coating. I don't think you have a tuning problem because the center of the piston has no damage. I think it's just a heat problem.
Last edited by Ausmbtech; Dec 29, 2010 at 10:48 PM.
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Posts: 19,942
Likes: 191
From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
2003 C230 racecar
12.5 af is perfect for power, anything richer is bad for power.
if it was my engine, i will try around 20-25 deg... checking egt...not enough timing = egt high, too much timing = egt high, you will see a sweet spot between too high and too low, thats the best point for reliability.
wich fuel you run un your engine ?
yvan
if it was my engine, i will try around 20-25 deg... checking egt...not enough timing = egt high, too much timing = egt high, you will see a sweet spot between too high and too low, thats the best point for reliability.
wich fuel you run un your engine ?
yvan
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
2003 C230 racecar
Have you considered getting the tops of the pistons coated with a ceramic coating. I don't think you have a tuning problem because the center of the piston has no damage. I think it's just a heat problem.[/quote]
Yes I have and I more then likely will, I’m going to put all the + on mi side.
Yes I have and I more then likely will, I’m going to put all the + on mi side.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: sept-iles, quebec, canada
C280 2007 4matic
can you use some racing fuel ?
If yes , buy some high octane fuel
if not, add 15% of toluene, it is a component of the fuel
search for rocket fuel in google...lol
in my opinion your pistons are burned from too much heat... timing too high and-or too lean.
i ran my engine with this and have GREAT result.like :
9.2 cr 21 psi of boost and too many parts of transmission broken...too much wheel spin...lost traction ... broke a rod but piston are ok
but anyway you need octane to prevent preignition and piston melting.
Hypereutectic pistons are very sensitive to preignition.
Yvan
If yes , buy some high octane fuel
if not, add 15% of toluene, it is a component of the fuel
search for rocket fuel in google...lol
in my opinion your pistons are burned from too much heat... timing too high and-or too lean.
i ran my engine with this and have GREAT result.like :
9.2 cr 21 psi of boost and too many parts of transmission broken...too much wheel spin...lost traction ... broke a rod but piston are ok
but anyway you need octane to prevent preignition and piston melting.
Hypereutectic pistons are very sensitive to preignition.
Yvan
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
2003 C230 racecar
can you use some racing fuel ?
If yes , buy some high octane fuel
if not, add 15% of toluene, it is a component of the fuel
search for rocket fuel in google...lol
in my opinion your pistons are burned from too much heat... timing too high and-or too lean.
i ran my engine with this and have GREAT result.like :
9.2 cr 21 psi of boost and too many parts of transmission broken...too much wheel spin...lost traction ... broke a rod but piston are ok
but anyway you need octane to prevent preignition and piston melting.
Hypereutectic pistons are very sensitive to preignition.
Yvan
If yes , buy some high octane fuel
if not, add 15% of toluene, it is a component of the fuel
search for rocket fuel in google...lol
in my opinion your pistons are burned from too much heat... timing too high and-or too lean.
i ran my engine with this and have GREAT result.like :
9.2 cr 21 psi of boost and too many parts of transmission broken...too much wheel spin...lost traction ... broke a rod but piston are ok
but anyway you need octane to prevent preignition and piston melting.
Hypereutectic pistons are very sensitive to preignition.
Yvan
I tried alcohol but I get those terrible headache lol.
The rules say (commercially available pump fuel) what ever that means.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: sept-iles, quebec, canada
C280 2007 4matic
http://www.2phast.com/500e/techdocs/toluene.htm
LOL this is an ingredient of normal fuel !!!
premium fuel contain 10 to 30% of this
Yvan
PS : this is THE solution hihihi
LOL this is an ingredient of normal fuel !!!
premium fuel contain 10 to 30% of this
Yvan
PS : this is THE solution hihihi
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,152
Likes: 29
From: Sydney, Australia
190D 2.5 (x2), 190E 2.6, W202 C240,W202 C43 (C55), W210 E55, W212 E250CDI
After looking at the photos it's definately a heat problem and not detonation. If you look at the first photo of the undamaged piston, the RHS is clean of carbon whilst the LHS has cabon on it. The RHS of the piston is running MUCH hotter and burning the carbon away. The spark plug is located in the center of the chamber so it's a fairly even distributuion of heat in the chamber with the usual addtional heat on the exhaust side.
I would beconsidering custom forged pistons if the rules/budget allows, otherwise definately get the piston crowns coating with a heat reflective coating.
Ths std pistons can take heat, but the extra heat you're geneating and for the long periods of time they just can't take it.
I would beconsidering custom forged pistons if the rules/budget allows, otherwise definately get the piston crowns coating with a heat reflective coating.
Ths std pistons can take heat, but the extra heat you're geneating and for the long periods of time they just can't take it.
Last edited by Ausmbtech; Dec 31, 2010 at 06:45 AM.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 19,942
Likes: 191
From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Do not add toluene ***** nilly to pump gas. It is a very poor octane booster & slows down flame front propogation. Try & get some AVGAS. The fuel must have a balanced distillation curve. Extra anti knock resistance is only of any benefit if you run more advanced timing. You need to run the most dense fuel the engine can fully combust. Higher density = greater energy. Remember AVGAS is still leaded so it will destroy your Cat but I don't know your rules. You probably don't give a damn about the Cat - can you remove it?
You are not suffering detonation so octane is not your problem (although the timing might be retarding itself at the onset of knock.) so you might not be running as advanced as you wish if you still have the knock sensor in circuit.
BTW - Are you running a decent oil cooler? The oil can only cool the underside of piston crowns if it, itself is being adequately cooled. Watch bulk oil temperature & fit an oil temp gauge.
You are not suffering detonation so octane is not your problem (although the timing might be retarding itself at the onset of knock.) so you might not be running as advanced as you wish if you still have the knock sensor in circuit.
BTW - Are you running a decent oil cooler? The oil can only cool the underside of piston crowns if it, itself is being adequately cooled. Watch bulk oil temperature & fit an oil temp gauge.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Dec 31, 2010 at 07:11 AM.
