Crank Pulley on w203 m111 engine- AFR issue
04-11-2011, 06:14 AM
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w203 c200K 2.0 mod 02
Crank Pulley on w203 m111 engine- AFR issue
My blue dream https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...ml#post4613785 showed 197 wheel horsepower on a dynapack dyno. Thats pretty good for a 2liter engine producing OEM 163 crank horsepower.
The staff I ve put on are
a custom 23cm crank pulley,
a larger front mount intercooler
custom headers.
kn filter
The intercooler itself gave 12hp while headers only improved top range throttle response.
However on the last dyno , performed from one of the top greek tuners, we took afr data from a wideband oxygen sensor plugged into the exhast pipe. AFR was quite lean always above 13.5.
From my constant obd logging I get oxygen sensor voltage always greater than 0.850 at full throttle even at high speeds and loads (5th, 6th gear).
My tuner and mechanic says that as long as it si above 0.8 it is safe and Ok.
Also ignition timing stays above 15 degrees and on higher revs it goes even to 18-19-20 degress. Timing data shows that the ecu does not get any detonation signals so probably it is within safety limits.
please before answering and to avoid unecessary questions take into account the following:
1. my car is a 2 liter M111. not the 2.3 (oem crank pulley diameter is the same)
2. the supercharger is the eaton M45
3. I live in greece, gas is 100oct (european rating)
4. No need for MAF relocation
a.what are your views on the afr problem?
b.using higher octane fuel decreases the danger?
c.does changing fuel settings on das (Stage 1,2,3) improves anything?
d.if I do chip tuning to solve the afr issue will i lose power? Or is there another 10-15bhp hidden in there?
e. does afr logging using the exhaust pipe (After the catalyst and the second oxygen sensor) give true data? would it be better if i put a wideband lambda before the cat?
Thank you
The staff I ve put on are
a custom 23cm crank pulley,
a larger front mount intercooler
custom headers.
kn filter
The intercooler itself gave 12hp while headers only improved top range throttle response.
However on the last dyno , performed from one of the top greek tuners, we took afr data from a wideband oxygen sensor plugged into the exhast pipe. AFR was quite lean always above 13.5.
From my constant obd logging I get oxygen sensor voltage always greater than 0.850 at full throttle even at high speeds and loads (5th, 6th gear).
My tuner and mechanic says that as long as it si above 0.8 it is safe and Ok.
Also ignition timing stays above 15 degrees and on higher revs it goes even to 18-19-20 degress. Timing data shows that the ecu does not get any detonation signals so probably it is within safety limits.
please before answering and to avoid unecessary questions take into account the following:
1. my car is a 2 liter M111. not the 2.3 (oem crank pulley diameter is the same)
2. the supercharger is the eaton M45
3. I live in greece, gas is 100oct (european rating)
4. No need for MAF relocation
a.what are your views on the afr problem?
b.using higher octane fuel decreases the danger?
c.does changing fuel settings on das (Stage 1,2,3) improves anything?
d.if I do chip tuning to solve the afr issue will i lose power? Or is there another 10-15bhp hidden in there?
e. does afr logging using the exhaust pipe (After the catalyst and the second oxygen sensor) give true data? would it be better if i put a wideband lambda before the cat?
Thank you
Last edited by GIANNISANAG; 04-11-2011 at 06:27 AM.
04-11-2011, 07:07 AM
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C240
Sorry I can't give you any answer, I'm not very technicl. However I'm really interested in the front mount intercooler, what type and how much did it cost you. And how long did it take to install?
04-11-2011, 08:04 AM
#5
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a.what are your views on the afr problem?
I don't think you have anything to worry about as long as temperatures are under control. However from experience as you reach stoichiometric in the 14 to 1 range you will not be extracting maximum power. If you could get a little more fuel in there you should find a few more Kw/hp. I presume she only goes lean at high RPM? Injectors might be at maximum flow at high RPM - You might need larger injectors. Richer mixture will lead to cooler running. Do your exhaust manifolds glow at night?
b.using higher octane fuel decreases the danger?
Using higher octane fuel reduces the chances of knock, pinging, pre ignition, detonation by whatever name you know it which allows more advanced timing - you don't seem to have a problem there.
c.does changing fuel settings on das (Stage 1,2,3) improves anything?
It allows a more advanced timing map. Fine if you are running 100 Octane. The ECU tune on these cars is quite moderate for engine safety with many different fuels.
d.if I do chip tuning to solve the afr issue will i lose power? Or is there another 10-15bhp hidden in there?
If your injectors are large enough you will likely gain power by tuning a little richer at high RPM. I'm pretty sure you have a little hp gain available.
e. does afr logging using the exhaust pipe (After the catalyst and the second oxygen sensor) give true data? would it be better if i put a wideband lambda before the cat?
Measuring pre Cat will always be more accurate. You don't know what to compensate for with Cat.
Good luck!
I don't think you have anything to worry about as long as temperatures are under control. However from experience as you reach stoichiometric in the 14 to 1 range you will not be extracting maximum power. If you could get a little more fuel in there you should find a few more Kw/hp. I presume she only goes lean at high RPM? Injectors might be at maximum flow at high RPM - You might need larger injectors. Richer mixture will lead to cooler running. Do your exhaust manifolds glow at night?
b.using higher octane fuel decreases the danger?
Using higher octane fuel reduces the chances of knock, pinging, pre ignition, detonation by whatever name you know it which allows more advanced timing - you don't seem to have a problem there.
c.does changing fuel settings on das (Stage 1,2,3) improves anything?
It allows a more advanced timing map. Fine if you are running 100 Octane. The ECU tune on these cars is quite moderate for engine safety with many different fuels.
d.if I do chip tuning to solve the afr issue will i lose power? Or is there another 10-15bhp hidden in there?
If your injectors are large enough you will likely gain power by tuning a little richer at high RPM. I'm pretty sure you have a little hp gain available.
e. does afr logging using the exhaust pipe (After the catalyst and the second oxygen sensor) give true data? would it be better if i put a wideband lambda before the cat?
Measuring pre Cat will always be more accurate. You don't know what to compensate for with Cat.
Good luck!
04-11-2011, 12:59 PM
#7
MBWorld Fanatic!
This has been a known issue since people 1st started using larger pulleys on these cars.
It would be of some concern if it wasn't that there are people on this board
with mileage in excess of 200K miles and so far no engine damage has occurred.
The member I'm thinking of has a Kleeman pulley AND had the supercharger modified to blow more air, routed out.
So, not only does he have pulley for lean condition but also the
SC even more. Having the SC modified increased his mileage too.
So, all this being said the M111 is a tough engine and seem uneffected by issues with AFR.
There were very long discussions on this subject back in like 2002-2003 on this board,
if you search ASP pulley and username Buellwinkle. He also experimented with fuel settings.
Some of us run cooler plugs to ensure the extra heat doesn't result in detonation.
See my sig. Nice dyno BTW! Please post a copy!
Glyn, you mentioned glowing exhaust?
I used to get this after a spirited run, but
at the time I think my cat may have been clogged.
I have been informed that my car is running lean
as the cat had a purple hue to it's exterior.
I don't drive the car so hard these days,
she's a getting up in her years, and I need her to keep going.
Interesting that the replacement IC resulted in power increase.
Other attempts at replacing the IC actually resulted in power decrease,
also see Buellwinkle's thread of around the same period where he tested
a Renntech IC.
Pics of your engine compartment and dyno FTW!
I do think that the stock connections between the MAF and
IC are inadequate for increased boost, and just sealing the leak
might be part of the power increase not so much the IC.
As far as larger injectors there was people posting pics of the new
larger injectors they purchased and intended to install,
but then nothing after that.
I think perhaps the ECU doesn't react properly with larger injectors
and there was talk of using higher rail pressure, but nothing ever came of it.
The mini cooper crowd does exactly this,
press on SC pulley not crank, and larger injectors.
It would be of some concern if it wasn't that there are people on this board
with mileage in excess of 200K miles and so far no engine damage has occurred.
The member I'm thinking of has a Kleeman pulley AND had the supercharger modified to blow more air, routed out.
So, not only does he have pulley for lean condition but also the
SC even more. Having the SC modified increased his mileage too.
So, all this being said the M111 is a tough engine and seem uneffected by issues with AFR.
There were very long discussions on this subject back in like 2002-2003 on this board,
if you search ASP pulley and username Buellwinkle. He also experimented with fuel settings.
Some of us run cooler plugs to ensure the extra heat doesn't result in detonation.
See my sig. Nice dyno BTW! Please post a copy!
Glyn, you mentioned glowing exhaust?
I used to get this after a spirited run, but
at the time I think my cat may have been clogged.
I have been informed that my car is running lean
as the cat had a purple hue to it's exterior.
I don't drive the car so hard these days,
she's a getting up in her years, and I need her to keep going.
Interesting that the replacement IC resulted in power increase.
Other attempts at replacing the IC actually resulted in power decrease,
also see Buellwinkle's thread of around the same period where he tested
a Renntech IC.
Pics of your engine compartment and dyno FTW!
I do think that the stock connections between the MAF and
IC are inadequate for increased boost, and just sealing the leak
might be part of the power increase not so much the IC.
As far as larger injectors there was people posting pics of the new
larger injectors they purchased and intended to install,
but then nothing after that.
I think perhaps the ECU doesn't react properly with larger injectors
and there was talk of using higher rail pressure, but nothing ever came of it.
The mini cooper crowd does exactly this,
press on SC pulley not crank, and larger injectors.
Last edited by C230 Sport Coup; 04-11-2011 at 01:32 PM.
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04-11-2011, 01:34 PM
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w203 c200K 2.0 mod 02
See my other thread for photos and dyno result as the forum doesn't let me to repost the same photos. I ve read all the relative threads back in 2002 but there are no more attached photos and dynos. Interesting this cooler plug tip.
04-11-2011, 02:03 PM
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w203 c200K 2.0 mod 02
Let me clarify things about ic. Just before the ic installation I did a dyno cause I had some pressure loss. I was right. From 213bhp and 290nm torque the car fell to a 202 and 275nm. Right after the ic the dyno showed 214bhp with the pressure loss still apparent. One year later we proceeded to readaptation of by pass valve, elimination of middle silencer and cleaning maf and throttle valve have lead to the dyno result of last week. I think that I am pretty close to the 200whp that you guys in us were hunting starting from your 2.3 and 193bhp. Will the colder plugs have a result in power too?
PS: today during a hard 1/4 mile run (measuring using iPhone's dynolicius) I blew my alternator. So until reaching to the service the car had no alternator. Well it felt something like 10hp more!
PS: today during a hard 1/4 mile run (measuring using iPhone's dynolicius) I blew my alternator. So until reaching to the service the car had no alternator. Well it felt something like 10hp more!
04-11-2011, 02:56 PM
#13
MBWorld Fanatic!
I was hoping for a pic of the header.
You had it specially designed?
Is it based on Supersprint design?
Same with pulley.
What is the contruction? Steel?
Aluminum?
PICS PICS PICS!
Cooler plugs is supposed to ensure no detonation at higher heat and compression,
thereby ensure maximum power, since if the ECU senses misfires, it will retard
performance and timing. At least thats the idea.
Some pulley kits come with cooler plugs.
It does not appear you have done anything with the
piping that goes to the MAF, which is where I have leaks.
Since all this pressure from the supercharger that allows for more power is pushed through the MAF, any leak
= less power. The stock setup is woefully inadequate.
I was expecting perhaps you had gone to silicon hoses and some more
serious hose clamps to ensure all that extra Kompression makes it to the engine.
For me, I discovered that there is no gasket for MAF at junction of plastic pipe
that comes off from the SC. The MAF
OD is much smaller than the ID of the plastic tube.
Maybe this was fine when 7 PSI was the most one could hope for.
But at 11-15 PSI, it is not. Seriously, I researched this one to death.
As a stop gap, I wrapped the OD of the MAF with cloth tape to
match the ID of the plastic hose, and make a good fit, +
used a gasket from the hardware store, but it is not
quite right but better than nothing.
I think a new MAF from MB comes with the correct gasket, but
it is not available as a separate part.
I know I have a leak, as oil is spraying out from the MAF that gets sucked into the engine.
I use only 6 quarts at oil change to hope to hae less oil sucked into the system, not sure if
it works. Use to have an oil catch, using air compressor oil catch, not currently installed.
Ebay oil catches were junk, fullof leaks, small 1/8" fitings, likely damage the engine.
I was expecting you may have resolved this, the MAF leak that is.
I have considered replacing the cheesey plastic hose and making sure the
system is sealed. What are you doing to make sure you have a good seal?
So you lost power? Went from 213 to 194?
Are you planning to do something about this?
If so, what?
Here's an interesting M111 intercooler thread.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r170...install-2.html
You had it specially designed?
Is it based on Supersprint design?
Same with pulley.
What is the contruction? Steel?
Aluminum?
PICS PICS PICS!
Cooler plugs is supposed to ensure no detonation at higher heat and compression,
thereby ensure maximum power, since if the ECU senses misfires, it will retard
performance and timing. At least thats the idea.
Some pulley kits come with cooler plugs.
It does not appear you have done anything with the
piping that goes to the MAF, which is where I have leaks.
Since all this pressure from the supercharger that allows for more power is pushed through the MAF, any leak
= less power. The stock setup is woefully inadequate.
I was expecting perhaps you had gone to silicon hoses and some more
serious hose clamps to ensure all that extra Kompression makes it to the engine.
For me, I discovered that there is no gasket for MAF at junction of plastic pipe
that comes off from the SC. The MAF
OD is much smaller than the ID of the plastic tube.
Maybe this was fine when 7 PSI was the most one could hope for.
But at 11-15 PSI, it is not. Seriously, I researched this one to death.
As a stop gap, I wrapped the OD of the MAF with cloth tape to
match the ID of the plastic hose, and make a good fit, +
used a gasket from the hardware store, but it is not
quite right but better than nothing.
I think a new MAF from MB comes with the correct gasket, but
it is not available as a separate part.
I know I have a leak, as oil is spraying out from the MAF that gets sucked into the engine.
I use only 6 quarts at oil change to hope to hae less oil sucked into the system, not sure if
it works. Use to have an oil catch, using air compressor oil catch, not currently installed.
Ebay oil catches were junk, fullof leaks, small 1/8" fitings, likely damage the engine.
I was expecting you may have resolved this, the MAF leak that is.
I have considered replacing the cheesey plastic hose and making sure the
system is sealed. What are you doing to make sure you have a good seal?
So you lost power? Went from 213 to 194?
Are you planning to do something about this?
If so, what?
Here's an interesting M111 intercooler thread.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r170...install-2.html
Last edited by C230 Sport Coup; 04-11-2011 at 03:22 PM.
04-11-2011, 03:05 PM
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w203 c200K 2.0 mod 02
here it is the pulley....
I do not know many things about it but it is steel,it was imported from Denmark, it is 23cm (like kleemans) and It is not a ring (or so i think)
dont leave the thread... headers coming
I do not know many things about it but it is steel,it was imported from Denmark, it is 23cm (like kleemans) and It is not a ring (or so i think)
dont leave the thread... headers coming
04-11-2011, 03:26 PM
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w203 c200K 2.0 mod 02
213 was crank horsepower....
last week's 197 is wheel horsepower so a 223 crank with a conservative 12% losses (this was a dynapack dyno so no tyre losses)!!!
I do not have oil leak problems from maf neither boost loss anymore. boost losses in my car are probably the bypass valve that gets nuts sometimes
last week's 197 is wheel horsepower so a 223 crank with a conservative 12% losses (this was a dynapack dyno so no tyre losses)!!!
I do not have oil leak problems from maf neither boost loss anymore. boost losses in my car are probably the bypass valve that gets nuts sometimes
04-11-2011, 05:07 PM
#16
Super Moderator
Todd - glowing manifolds are pretty common after a hard thrash. You get to learn how much is too much. I don't think the OP is likely to have any trouble running the way he is. I just think he is leaving horsepower on the table. Bosch can advise on correct injector sizes & compatibility with the ECU. We don't know if the present injectors are maxing out. I would like to see an AFR plot against RPM under load.
04-11-2011, 05:53 PM
#19
MBWorld Fanatic!
Custom made parts? Hmm.Your pulley looks like an ASP, has holes on outside ring..
Header is definitely not Supersprint.
Header is definitely not Supersprint.
04-11-2011, 06:00 PM
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w203 c200K 2.0 mod 02
Asp is an unknown word here in greece. As the pulley ( and the ic) came from Denmark, and its diameter is the same to kleemann's I suspect that they may come from the same CBC shop.
Headers are custom but I am not impressed with them. Where can I find supersprint?
Headers are custom but I am not impressed with them. Where can I find supersprint?
04-27-2011, 09:18 PM
#21
Newbie
Hey Everyone 
My name is Ivan i own a 2002 c230 sport coupe. I love my car. I recently replaced the sparks,tires, sotted rotors, Clear side markers, Chrome Cover mirrors. I want to get these headers installed and wanted to know what should i worry about installing them and the pros as well. Also mycar has 170061 miles
ALSO where can i get a all metal pipe where that maf sensor is at you know the one on the driver side of the engine, there is like a big plastic black pipe. i seen others with shiny metal ones PLus I want to upgrade Wolf (sportcoupe) any direction you guys suggest i should take??
My name is Ivan i own a 2002 c230 sport coupe. I love my car. I recently replaced the sparks,tires, sotted rotors, Clear side markers, Chrome Cover mirrors. I want to get these headers installed and wanted to know what should i worry about installing them and the pros as well. Also mycar has 170061 miles ALSO where can i get a all metal pipe where that maf sensor is at you know the one on the driver side of the engine, there is like a big plastic black pipe. i seen others with shiny metal ones
PLus I want to upgrade Wolf (sportcoupe) any direction you guys suggest i should take??
02-23-2019, 09:21 PM
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W208 clk 200k
My blue dream https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...ml#post4613785 showed 197 wheel horsepower on a dynapack dyno. Thats pretty good for a 2liter engine producing OEM 163 crank horsepower.
The staff I ve put on are
a custom 23cm crank pulley,
a larger front mount intercooler
custom headers.
kn filter
The intercooler itself gave 12hp while headers only improved top range throttle response.
However on the last dyno , performed from one of the top greek tuners, we took afr data from a wideband oxygen sensor plugged into the exhast pipe. AFR was quite lean always above 13.5.
From my constant obd logging I get oxygen sensor voltage always greater than 0.850 at full throttle even at high speeds and loads (5th, 6th gear).
My tuner and mechanic says that as long as it si above 0.8 it is safe and Ok.
Also ignition timing stays above 15 degrees and on higher revs it goes even to 18-19-20 degress. Timing data shows that the ecu does not get any detonation signals so probably it is within safety limits.
please before answering and to avoid unecessary questions take into account the following:
1. my car is a 2 liter M111. not the 2.3 (oem crank pulley diameter is the same)
2. the supercharger is the eaton M45
3. I live in greece, gas is 100oct (european rating)
4. No need for MAF relocation
a.what are your views on the afr problem?
b.using higher octane fuel decreases the danger?
c.does changing fuel settings on das (Stage 1,2,3) improves anything?
d.if I do chip tuning to solve the afr issue will i lose power? Or is there another 10-15bhp hidden in there?
e. does afr logging using the exhaust pipe (After the catalyst and the second oxygen sensor) give true data? would it be better if i put a wideband lambda before the cat?
Thank you
The staff I ve put on are
a custom 23cm crank pulley,
a larger front mount intercooler
custom headers.
kn filter
The intercooler itself gave 12hp while headers only improved top range throttle response.
However on the last dyno , performed from one of the top greek tuners, we took afr data from a wideband oxygen sensor plugged into the exhast pipe. AFR was quite lean always above 13.5.
From my constant obd logging I get oxygen sensor voltage always greater than 0.850 at full throttle even at high speeds and loads (5th, 6th gear).
My tuner and mechanic says that as long as it si above 0.8 it is safe and Ok.
Also ignition timing stays above 15 degrees and on higher revs it goes even to 18-19-20 degress. Timing data shows that the ecu does not get any detonation signals so probably it is within safety limits.
please before answering and to avoid unecessary questions take into account the following:
1. my car is a 2 liter M111. not the 2.3 (oem crank pulley diameter is the same)
2. the supercharger is the eaton M45
3. I live in greece, gas is 100oct (european rating)
4. No need for MAF relocation
a.what are your views on the afr problem?
b.using higher octane fuel decreases the danger?
c.does changing fuel settings on das (Stage 1,2,3) improves anything?
d.if I do chip tuning to solve the afr issue will i lose power? Or is there another 10-15bhp hidden in there?
e. does afr logging using the exhaust pipe (After the catalyst and the second oxygen sensor) give true data? would it be better if i put a wideband lambda before the cat?
Thank you
