MikeeO

Just had my transmission flushed at 45,000 km and the stock factory fluid looked like mud. Surprising for a "lifetime" fluid. I decided to switch to Redline High Temp ATF since Ive had great results from it on other cars. It took at least 16 liters of fresh fluid before the fluid coming out of the flush machine was redish rather than brown. After the service the transmission feels better than new. Shifts are MUCH smoother and the jerk when shifting from N to D or R is gone too. Even the automatic downshifts when braking can hardly be felt now.

giannidy

Redline High Temp? I'll have to use that next time. Just had the tranny flushed a couple miles ago. Shifts better, still jerks a little bit though.

Glyn M Ruck

Wrong fluid - not approved! Use Fuchs Titan 4134. There is no such thing as a lifetime fluid. That's MBUSA crap. Change every 60,000Km or 39,000 miles as in ROW.

MikeeO

Just because a brand of fluid hasnt been "approved" by Mercedes doesnt mean its the wrong fluid. Ive emailed Redline and their response was they recommened their D4 ATF for mercedes 5 speed but since I live in a tropical country High Temp would work as well. Im happy with the results and car is running great.

splinter

Did your technician renew the filter concurrently?

As a boutique petroleum firm, California-based Red Line has earned a remarkably loyal following for many of its blends.
That they’ve elected not to undergo de rigueur API/ASTM/ACEA certification with their Type V base stock lubricants is rightly of concern to some.
Good to know they’re helping to offset our trade imbalance.

Curious to have chosen a Dexron/Mercon formulation in lieu of a OE 722.6/9 type ATF, since their kinematic and friction properties differ significantly.

http://www.redlineoil.com/content/fi...PDS%201-10.pdf
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/New-F...N-ATF-4134.pdf

MikeeO

The filter is somewhat new. It was replaced at the dealership at 30K km at the same time they had to fix a leaking o ring in the transmission. Ive used Redline ATF as a replacement for Toyota T-IV in a Land Cruiser and a friend of mine has used it in his E320 4 speed auto. We felt significant improvemnent in the transmission so I had no reservations on using it on the 722.6. Alot of factory ATFs seem to burn out (turn brown or black) really early in harsh tropical and constant stop and go traffic conditions, which is one reason i didnt want to go back to the mercedes branded ATF.

Glyn M Ruck

Understood - However - They do not have the technology. They will have bought in the additive system from Lubrizol or similar & the base oil from one of many base oil peddlers.

If Redline want to be taken seriously they should have their products submitted for approval & Dexron/Mercon products are not suitable for the 722.6 transmission.

It would take one hell of a technology company to beat the new Benz 236.14 spec product. I know of none such - only one technology is approved with extremely careful base oil selection.

As per your own posting.

https://mbworld.org/forums/attachmen...f-bulletin.pdf



I do not think that this forum should be recommending any non approved formulations for transmissions that can cost > $6000 in the case of the 722.6 & derivatives and > $10,000 in the case of the 722.9 to rebuild properly.

Moviela

The transmission is not like a plate of pasta you can finish with a variety of different sauces to make a tasty dish. The components of the transmission from Benz have been engineered to use a specific fluid to work together for proper operation and long life. The friction material and even the binders have been modified to work with the specified fluid. If you go off the reservation and select a different fluid for your transmission you are giving up a significant advantage of the design. That is the ability of the fluid and mechanical components to work as a whole.

Red Line, Amsoil, Royal Purple, Swepco, and even Hindustan Petroleum Thanda Raja are all fine products, however, they do not meet the specifications for use in a Mercedes Benz car.

splinter

You’re entirely correct, IMHO.
Incidentally, the local Chevron filling station was dispensing 91 octane today at $4.51/gallon…$125 to replenish the GMC’s tank.
Wasn’t too long ago when decent 100 (R+M)/2 petrol was $5!

In deference to a predilection toward obtuse posting, didn’t want to offend our new member by directly stating any Dexron/Mercon blend is strictly verboten in a MB 722.6 or 722.9 gearbox. For the record, my W203’s 5-speed has had nothing but 236.10, 236.12 and 236.14 specification ATF pumped through it during my stewardship. Its four complete flushes over the last ~50,000 miles serve as testament to a OCD maintenance mindset. Note it’s flogged with some regularity during HPDEs. Seldom profess to others what to with theirs, although Fuchs' 4134 provides a near-ideal compromise of WOT shift speed, light load smoothness and PWM torque converter operation. Works well in my mom’s 722.9, too.

yesterday's post to a fellow AMG member


:D Indeed.
Seldom put much faith in “lotions and potions” cures, but have forestalled costly rebuilds -and reduced ‘notchiness’- with Red Line’s MTL (BMW and Mazda) and Swepco (Porsche) in their respective manual gearboxes.

The jaundiced placebo meter was pleasantly surprised.

Glyn M Ruck

Indeed Sir splinter - You know I'm a little blunt.

There are areas of tribolgy that are well served by merely over formulating to give an added degree of protection even if that amounts to curing the symptom rather than the root cause of the problem.

An auto transmission is not one of those. Fluid development for a specific design auto transmission is an absolute balancing act between frictional properties to ensure controlled shift shock & lock up of clutches & TC bands, maintenance of shift shock characteristics over fluid life, elastomer compatibility, antiwear, antiox etc. etc.

What can manifest as apparently smoother transmission operation can be a downward spiral to early demise of the friction materials et al due to excessive slippage, accelerated wear & elevated operating temperatures.


Yes - the fuel price sucks & you guys still have it pretty cheap!

MikeeO

Fuch Titan, Shell 134 and Mobil 134 isnt sold anywhere here. The local Benz dealership only carries the newer transmission fluid designed for the 7 speed which appears to be REALLY thin. Looks almost like its too thin for local climate (ambient temp year round 28C-40C) Anyway the transmission is running really well so am happy with it. If any problem pops up due to fluid chioce ill be sure to relay it here. Thanks for all the info thou.

victorb623

Just to share with regards to ATF for the Mercedes. in my opinion, no need to use OEM fluid / approved one. For me its only an assurance that it can do the job.

I've used AMSOIL atf in my 2002 c240 (changed at 50,000miles). I noticed that the shifts were a lot smoother. 25,000 miles later, I changed again my transmission fluid, and used the FUCH titan, to my surprise, the AMSOIL did a better job in terms of shift quality and smoothness

P.S. in my homeland, Philippines, there's no local Mercedes dealer. Most of the people who ows mercedes use whatever ATF is available (shell, caltex-chevron, castrol etc.)

Glyn M Ruck

The new 236.14 fluid for the 7 speed is now what Benz recommend in the above bulletin for all 722.6 transmissions because it far better than the old fluids. I was involved in the development for our additive company. You must not be misled by the apparent viscosity of products at ambient temperature. All that matters is the viscosity at operating temperature. The 236.14 fluid is produced with a very high VI (Viscosity Index) synthetic base stock that does not thin out quickly with a rise in temperature. (VI is the rate of change in viscosity for a given change in temperature). Standard petroleum products thin out very quickly as temperatures rise (low VI). Top high VI synthetic products do not thin out anywhere near as much. Viscometrics of the fluid are designed to be correct for operating temperature. By far the most important characteristic of the fluid is it's frictional characteristics that are fine tuned with friction modifiers.

Glyn M Ruck

I know Philippines conditions intimately from my days with Caltex looking after Asia. If you use the standard ATF's marketed by us & others you will damage a Benz transmission.

If the AMSOIL ATF gave you smoother operation than Fuchs then it follows my point made above - quote "What can manifest as apparently smoother transmission operation can be a downward spiral to early demise of the friction materials et al due to excessive slippage, accelerated wear & elevated operating temperatures."

AMSOIL is not approved & was allowing too much slip of the clutch packs. Do that for too long and the transmission will fail.

My recommendations are all intended to ensure that Benz owners get long trouble free life out of their very expensive transmissions.

Benz & ourselves as an oil industry spend millions of dollars on product development for specific applications. Not adhering to Benz recommendations after all the work that goes into developing the correct fluid is not wise & will cost you down the road. That I can guarantee.

Javvy

All please listen to what Glyn recommends.........he does this for a living and kknows his oils better than any of us up here..................THANK YOU Glyn for all your inputs on oil and their compatability with our trannys....................

I FOR ONE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.......

THANK YOU

MikeeO

That is interesting. From what Ive been reading it seemed that the main reason the newer types of ATFs are much thinner now is just to improve fuel economy ratings in the US, and shift quality during winter or cold starts.
If the 5 speed was never designed for the thinner nag2 fluid wouldnt that damage it as well. Similar to what happend to an older camry i had that required dextron 3, the dealer flushed with the newer Toyota T-IV ATF and shifting from 1st to 2nd was rough right off the bat.
Im assuming the powersteering system isnt sentive to fluid types. I used Redline Powersteering fluid in the W203 and it got rid of a funny groan the pump made in the morning and the steering lightened up and was alot easier to return to straight ahead.

Glyn M Ruck

The new fluid is not thinner at operating temperature. The fluid was designed with 722.6 & 722.9 transmissions in mind. That's why Benz now have it as their ONLY recommendation for the 5 speed. Times move on and the new fluid will provide better protection for your 5 speed than the older generation fluids. Fuel saving was at no time a consideration with the 236.14 development.

The power steering system is sensitive to fluid. If you had changed the fluid for the Benz approved product the groan would have gone - the fluid was obviously getting tired or was slightly aerated. These systems don't groan when they are right. The PS is however far less sensitive than an Auto gearbox. PS fluid is protecting the pump & elastomers in the main.

The only area that I would ignore Benz on is brake fluid. There is nothing different about the Benz spec in that area.

MikeeO

According to Redline website their Powersteering fluid is approved for benz use. Yup it got rid of the groaning noise. Im sure the old factory fill was worn being almost 10 years old and brown and smelt burnt already.

Other than brake fluid I dont think benz has any specific spec for their diff oil as well. as long as its GL5 i think.

Glyn M Ruck

Benz only allow the use of one Lubrizol additive for their diff oil.

MikeeO

Ah cool. Thanks for the info Glyn. By the way how long were you in the Philippines for? And any advice on these transmission and powersteering fluid filters:
http://www.magnefine.com/

Glyn M Ruck

Here are the only approved PS fluids for W203.

splinter

Red Line power steering fluid is a suitable replacement where Dexron is originally specified by the manufacturer.

Your C200k is a W203, yes?





http://www.pentosin.net/pressrelease..._CHF11S_V3.pdf

http://www.redlineoil.com/content/fi...uct%20Data.pdf

MikeeO

Hmm I dont think they sell that here as well

Glyn M Ruck

I used to fly around Asia over 200 days a year so I was in & out all the time. An SA friend of mine Brian Drummond used to run the Philippines Lubricants business. Our offices are in Metro Manila/Makati opposite the Shangri La hotel & our Lube plant is at Pandacan (not for much longer I understand). I then went global after merger which made the flying worse.

I can't comment on those filters. They do not specify nominal and absolute media ratings or beta ratio.

I would stick to decent Benz recommended filters mainly from, Mann + Hummel, Mahle Knecht & Hengst. You will also see them repackaged as Bosch, K&N etc. Manufacturers name is usually stamped on the end of the filter.

victorb623

Thank you glyn. Appreciate what you said. Made me a better technician.

Rule number 1: stick to OEM.

Thats why I changed out my transmission fluid to fuch titan after 25,000 miles. I just got swayed by the smoother shifts / operation in which is slippage.