percolated

Hi all.

I need some urgent help with something.

My 2004 Mercedes C220 CDI (facelift) which has done 120,000km's went into limp mode the other week. I sent it in to a mechanic for diagnosis and repairs.
The car symptoms were:
1. Relatively sluggish under full throttle, (before going into limp mode)
2. No boost at all in limp mode
3. Possibly more smoke through the exhaust than expected, but nothing too obvious unless under heavy throttle

First mechanic hooked it up to his machine.
Got the code 2359-001 Check charge air system. Too low boost pressure.

But he couldn't figure out why.

Second (Actual Mercedes Dealership) Mechanic tells me that it is BOTH catalytic converters that need replacing, because they are "blocked".

My questions to the kind helper(s) is:
-Can the cat converters cause 2359-001? Bear in mind there is no rattle noise that I can hear to make me think of catalytic converter.
-If so, do I need to replace BOTH cats? Seems unusual.
-Can the cats be repaired instead of replaced?
-Should this be covered under Mercedes?

He wants to charge me $1400 AUD for one of the cats and $1600 for the other one. I am worried he has got the wrong diagnosis.


Any help would be very much appreciated! I have searched about the code but most of the results were making me think of EGV and Turbo resonator..

Glyn M Ruck

It could be a clogged Cat but it could also be the turbo or waste controller.

Cats can't be repaired. Tell them to replace the Cats on a no cure no pay basis or get another opinion.

Is there anyway you can post the full Star print out? I presume you have paid for this diagnosis. Presume your car does not have a particulate trap/filter? Don't seem to be fitted for Aus including W204.

If you were in the US you would be covered to 80K miles. Not in Aus or SA to my knowledge.

C230 Sport Coup

Sounds fishy. 3 grand?
How about take them out and see how it runs, then
either weld 'em back or put in replacements . That doesn't take long.

I took the wrong cat to be welded and they found out too late, so they welded in a piece of pipe, and didn't even charge for it, just 50 at the end of the whole thing, when the right one came in, and can't you get an aftermarket cat(s)?
3 grand? Pfft, I paid for 300 for one US.

I didn't think they used cats on diesels.

Carsy

Does anyone know how vehicle exhaust gas quality is monotored in Australia ?.

What is the chance of being picked up without Cats if the removal job is done surreptitiously & cleverly ?

Is it checked at 'Pink Slip' (annual inspection) time ?

I do not know the answers as I have not had a modern vehicle inspected for registration lately. A new vehicle in Australia is not inspected for the first 5 years.

Percolated, How about a third opinion ? Try contacting ( Personal Message) 'Ausmbtec on this forum. He usually has the answers.

Also try a quote from our local manufacturers eg http://www.cateran.com.au/cateran/about.aspx http://www.venomexhaustworks.com.au/

Glyn M Ruck

Ausmbtech is a good call. He is based in Sydney. Don't know where the OP is.

Carsy

Another thought, if a cat is blocked & it has not collapsed or worn out then the material blocking it is most likely soot carbon deposits.

Can these be cleaned out either chemically or mechanically ?.

The next question is why are these deposits building up? . Is there a problem with the engine( injectors ,rings) , type of oil or fuel used ? .

I would definitely examine what is causing the problem before putting A$3000 worth of new cats in.

Good luck & let us know how you go.

Glyn M Ruck

Yup! the car might be overfueling.

percolated

Thanks all for your GREAT help on this matter.

It's all a little fishy for my liking.

Have decided to take the car to an exhaust/muffler specialist, who will fit aftermarket cats at a cost of ~$700 AUD. A heck of a lot cheaper than the original parts from MB.

I have a feeling however that there is another problem... Irrespective, I will keep this thread updated with results..

Carsy

I am wondering why the cats blocked after only 120,000 km.

Are you using the low ash engine oil MB spec 229.51 which is supposed to keep exhaust pollution gear clean?. I am using Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 or Shell Helix Ultra Extra 5w30.

Does the engine use much oil & how often do you change it?

There must be some reason for the blockage.

Interesting to hear whether the internals have collapsed or are blocked.

Good luck.

Glyn M Ruck

JC - Your petrol is nicely up to snuff in Aus these days but what is your diesel quality like? What is the sulphur content? Do you have a choice on SS driveways?

There is no point in worrying about low SAPS oils if the diesel is crap. Are particulate traps not fitted on Aus cars because of a lack of legislation or because of fuel quality? When I left Aus the refineries had not been upgraded yet so I'm not sure of present status & the last time I did a pass through that way I did not notice.

togaclk55

The 2 high flow metal core cats i bought ran me $140 USD

Carsy

Diesel is good Glyn. Australia has had a limit of 10 ppm since January 1st 2009 The limit was previously 50 ppm.

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_inte...SulphurADF.pdf

Shell & BP gives a choice between standard 10ppm & Ultimate Diesel which is more expensive. It claims it:-
1. Cleans off deposits,
2.Has an antifoam inhibitor.
3.Also a corrosion inhibitor.

These products are not always available . I would be interested to know whether they are worth the extra expense or are just a marketing ploy ?.I run a tank through occasionally.

Getting back to our friends Cat problem, there may be more soot deposited in stop start traffic conditions when compared to running on the highway .

Continual heavy accelleration also produces more soot.

Interesting subject. I would like to know more.

Ausmbtech

Does it always have low power or is it fine then looses power after driving for a while?

Common issues are jammed turbo vanes, air flow sensors, EGR valve blocked, boost pressure sensor faults or vacuum leak to the turbo control valve or damaged intake manifold flaps.

Only having the fault code for low boost pressure and if there is never full power then I'd suspect the boost pressure sensor, vacuum leak or turbo vanes jammed.

Good power than loosing after extending driving (usually constant speeds) mostly jamming turbo vanes.

Cats usually give low power all the time, sometimes after changing the cats the air mass meter dies (it would already be failing, but the sudden increase in air flow takes it beyond it's useful range and trips a new code).


Cats on CDI2 engines (mostly ML270) regularly blocked up in Australia, CDI3 engines rarely block cats unless the driver is particularly gentle. This is due to fuel being more finely atomised/less soot on the CDI3 and later engines.

Glyn M Ruck

JC - certainly nothing wrong with the fuel. Good stuff. Deposit control additives work. After Techron diesel, the BP system is best.

Really good input from Ausmbtech. The new engines with 2000+ bar injection pressure & amplifier injectors should reduce soot & particle size.

percolated

Hi all.

Thanks for your help thus far.

Took the car to an exhaust specialist today.

Both cats removed and replaced with aftermarket pieces. On inspecting the old cats, the rear one had around 80% of the fenestrations blocked on a glancing guesstimate. The front one was knackered too.

Problem fixed.. the car has never accelerated this well in the 10 months we've had it. Goes like a rocket. The CLS/ Engine light is now off and has not turned back on.
Have been driving it pretty hard and so far nothing but great driving.

Scratching my head as to why it happened in the first place. I'm thinking it's possible the first owner drove it like Miss Daisy, making soot deposits slowly accumulate. Then, since we've had it, the soot that had collection further up around the exhaust manifold shot off and clogged it proper.

I also acknowledge it could be something more sinister causing it but I guess another year or so of continued driving will shed some light on the matter, as to whether the problem happens again. If it does, the Mercedes people can investigate with a finer tooth comb.

Anyway, in the meantime, all's well


On a side note, when I went to pick the car up from BEA Mercedes in Adelaide, (went to pay for diagnostic time and to take the car to an exhaust specialist), I spent around 20 minutes before being served by someone who could help me. Had been told the amount due was $500 for around 4 hours diagnostic time. He had told me this on the phone prior to me going in, but it was in contradiction to what I had been told on the phone the week earlier that it would only cost $170. Anyway, I paid the $500.

Then, when I paid the money and the car was brought to me from the garage at BEA, it was making a LOT more noise. So I told the Merc rep as soon as he got out of the car and he told me that it was because my cats had failed. I insisted the noise was new, so was told they would put the car back on the hoist to have a look. I opened the bonnet to find that they had forgotten to install the cats back in... they were sitting in the boot. Hence the noise (not from the boot but from the engine bay obviously!).

Then spent another 1 hour 20 minutes in the (comfortably cool) waiting room waiting for them to be put back in, at no extra cost to me.

They did apologise however which I accepted, because mistakes can happen. The thing that bothered me was that I had taken the day off of work specifically to pick up the car and get it sorted, where I would have been making ~120/hr for 10 hours (not able to do part shift).

Anyway, it seems they are great diagnosticians however my experience wasn't all that pleasurable. I imagine my case is an isolated one and I will be taking the car back in the future to see if that is the case, not that they need my business!

Anyway for now I'm happy. The chaps at AAA Exhaust were top blokes and communicated very well.

I paid $800 for the cats installed and $500 diagnostic time (and $1200 lost earnings!)

But it seems the 'low boost' fault code p2359-001 can be caused, or is at least associated with, blocked cats.

Again thanks everyone for your help, especially Ausmbtech & Carsy.

Carsy

Thanks for the great feed back.

I hope all goes well regarding the cats in the future.

Can't believe they left the cats off !!

I think it may be useful for us to use a tankful of the Caltex Vortex occasionally because of its cleaning qualities.

I love my 220CDI!!

JC

Glyn M Ruck

Pleased she's fixed. Your new fuel quality with the upgraded refineries will help keep the new Cats clean. Specs JC posted are excellent.

percolated

Hi all.

So it turns out that the problem has happened again.

The car has had the same symptoms as last time, with black smoke, limp mode, engine light.

It was this way for a week or so, without me knowing about it (my wife was driving the car).

After taking the car for a spin, it actually drives relatively well compared to the first time this happened, except that I hear loud exhaust noise if I floor it.

Additionally, there are black soot deposits on the front bumper of the car now, on the passenger side at the level of the grill. There is an oily sooty residue here now. On a positive note, it's does not have a blue tint.

Would it be fair to assume that the 'back pressure' because of the new cat getting blocked again has caused the connections/piping further up to crack/ disconnect, with exhaust now being blown from the front of the car as described above?


This has pi$$ed me off a little, as the mechanics at BEA Motors Adelaide, where I took the car the first time the black smoke/limp mode problem happened, told me that "cats block up sometimes" and they dismissed the need to look into WHY they blocked up in the first place. Here I am again with the same problem now, I assume.

The problem is, the 2 -year warranty I purchased with the car when I got it, covers everything it seems other than exhaust related.

I am very tempted to just get the manifold/exhaust leak fixed, and swap the rear blocked cat with a straight pipe, and maybe change the MAF sensor, and call it a day.

Do you think the extra diagnostic time/ cost of new catalytic converters/ etc would be worth it, considering it could just happen again?

My understanding is that it could be:
-MAF
-Worn injectors
-Turbo bearings



Looking forward to some more insightful advice. My thoughts at this stage are to maybe get an ECU diagnostics check and just see if MAF sensor is buggered, and then take it from there...



Cheers

Carsy

Good day Percolated,

Sorry to hear about the return of your problems.

I think it may be best to obtain expert help here ie Ausmbtec

From my point of view I would do a thougher inspection to see definitely where the 'exhaust 'leak is located.Then go from there. It may not be the cats.

I doubt whether exhaust back pressure could cause failure in a exhaust system in good condition.

Thinking aloud, I wonder whether it has anything to do with ERG or sump breather gaskets & pipework?.It would be interesting to take a look at the condition of the air cleaner for oil deposits.

If it is the cats causing the problem then I would definitely find the cause before replacing them.

I don't know the pollution law in South Aus but it could be an option to go without!. You would need to look into it & weigh up your chances.

Worn injectors should show up as black smoke when under load'

Turbo bearings leaking into exhaust should show blue exhaust smoke & a loss of oil in the sump.

As Ausmbtec says it could be sensor faults causing excess build up.

I agree with your thoughts about having a diagnostics check to put you on the correct path. We are guessing at this stage.

Keep us posted. Interesting problem.

JC

Carsy

Hello Percolated,

Sorry to hear of your problem. It may not be related to your cats.

I would do a through inspection to find where the 'exhaust leak' is, ask why it happened ,then repair it & see if you have any problems. If you do, then a diagnostic check ,as you say ,would hopefully point to the problem.

Good luck & keep us posted.

John C.

Ausmbtech

If there is a loud noise when flooring it (is it like air flow noise?) and a oily residue on the front bumper then I would be looking closely near this residue for a leaking intercooler hose as this is the most likely cause of low power espcially if there is now oil on the front bumper. Have a look and get back to us.

C230 Sport Coup

Sounds like the muffler bearings.

MBfinatic

Ill give you 2 cats for 100 plus shipping lol. Those prices are crazy!

Carsy

Hey , this is oil burner corner here, go back to your high octane sniffing.