VeeDubDriver

I was planning to lease a 24V 6-speed GTI when they come out in the spring, however I do like the look of the C230. Here is my dilemma. The C230 would cost me at least $100/mo more to lease than the GTI. Please convince me that it is worth it. From what I can tell, the GTI will have better performance, similar features and a lower price. Granted, it is a VW and not a Mercedes, but is that a good enough reason to spend $100/mo more? Please no flames, just honest opinions.

Flashman

The C230 is a Mercedes. The GTI is not.

tommy

Have they released the pricing yet? I can't imagine that the difference would be that great, especially since the depreciation should be higher on the GTI.
Wasn't the previous gen VR6 around $23.5? I would think that they'd jack up the price at least a little for the extra 27 ponies and 6-speed.

Don't forget to do apples to apples as much as possible, and add in for stuff that the Benz has, like the better sunroof, more safety features, dual zone hvac vs. climatronic, and working window regulators. And of course, you can't get the GTI in Orion Blue. :p

I almost got a '02 1.8 gti in green, but liked the 230 better. Pick the one that you like to drive better (and work on those leases - I really don't think the c230 s/b $100 more). Oh, finally the ordering process is so much better for MB's - getting a VW dealer to look for a Rave Green one was like pulling teeth, and I got the "well, it'll be between 2 and 6 months" bs, and didn't want to deal with them again.

VeeDubDriver

I was really looking for more than that. I am not the type to be impressed by a "brand".

Allow me to elaborate. I can get nearly every feature the C230 has on the GTI (sunroof, climate control, rain sensing wipers, stability control, etc). From what I can see, the GTI will have better power to weight, smoother engine, better gas mileage, just as nice interior (IMO) and is significantly less expensive. The C230 will handle better out of the box (I would have to upgrade the GTI for about $1100 with tires and suspension), better service and is more attractive. Anything else I am missing?

MB-BOB

I don't lease cars, but I'm told the "back-end" of the lease is just as important as the up-front stuff. While the C230 is a new model, the Golf has been around since dirt, and the magazines are saying the GTI's design is getting long in the tooth. Not to mention that you can see a GTI every 30 seconds in most cities (old as dirt, common as dirt). Point is, IMO, this would not bode well for residual value on the GTI. If you can get the lease for lesser money, as tommy suggests, and get a higher residual value at the back end, the C230 should fare better than the Golf.

I don't see these as comparable cars, really. If you are a VW fanatic, as it appears, ask yourself this question. Would I prefer to buy the VW, or would I prefer a comparable Audi, instead? If the answer is YES, than you have made the conceptual jump from VW to MB, because the Audi is considered to be more in MB territory than the VW. I'm not being snobbish, just outlining how VW/Audi view the market themselves.

Test drive a Coupe and pay particular attention to the solidness of the chassis. Ask the salesperson to point out all those airbags, and you'll be convinced.

VeeDubDriver

The difference is that I can get the GTI for about $500 over invoice after a month or two of it coming out. Residual values for the C230 are a bit better, but MB Credit has some really high money factors which push up the lease price.

Quote:

Don't forget to do apples to apples as much as possible, and add in for stuff that the Benz has, like the better sunroof, more safety features, dual zone hvac vs. climatronic, and working window regulators. And of course, you can't get the GTI in Orion Blue. :p

Yes, I do like the panoramic roof, but the dual zone climate control is offset by the standard heated seats for the GTI with leather (my wife and I fight over it being too cold). The window regulator problem has been pretty much corrected for 2001. My '01 Jetta GLX has had no regulator problems and I use my windows everyday.

Quote:

I almost got a '02 1.8 gti in green, but liked the 230 better. Pick the one that you like to drive better (and work on those leases - I really don't think the c230 s/b $100 more). Oh, finally the ordering process is so much better for MB's - getting a VW dealer to look for a Rave Green one was like pulling teeth, and I got the "well, it'll be between 2 and 6 months" bs, and didn't want to deal with them again.

I would be interested in the C7 and C5 packages and metallic paint. I can get the CD changer residualized into the lease for free. Assuming I could get the car for about $1000 off MSRP (which I am not even sure about), the lease for 42 months would be $445/mo including sales tax (going by current MB Credit lease rates and residuals).

The GTI with the leather and luxury packages would run me about $322 for the same term. This is assuming paying $500 over invoice and not getting the technology package (climatronic, rain sensing wipers and auto dim mirror). I do like the latter two, but I have the climatronic on my Jetta right now and it is a PITA! This is also assuming the approximate $1400 additional price for the 24V over the current 12V VR6 (I saw a window sticker at the LA auto show). I am also using the current VW Credit lease rates and residuals for the current 12V VR6. Now, as I stated earlier, the GTI would require different tires, springs and shocks right out of the box. If I take the $1200 that would cost and us it as a cap cost reduction on the C230, that would bring the price down to $410/mo. So, we are talking about a $90/mo difference. I also suspect that the C230 will be more expensive to insure, but I would count that right now.

As far as safety, the GTI has tons of airbags too, great crash results and the 24V GTI will have ESP also.

I do have to admit that being married and 32, the C230 does project a more mature image than the GTI, and this is also a consideration.

Please keep the comment coming, they are very helpful!

zimmer26

If I were more patient I'd be in the same dilemma as you're in. Here were my findings when I compared the current 12V GTI with the C230.

1. Liked C230's styling better
2. The VR6 is a smoother, more refined powerplant
3. The VR6 seemed to lack power north of 4500RPM
4. The C230 outhandles the GTI handily IMO, feels more balanced
5. The C230's seats are more comfortable
6. The C230 has more safety features
7. Figured the 24V would push the price close to the C230's (have they released pricing yet?)
8. Like the C7 manual gear box better
9. +++RWD of C230- almost forgot!
10. VR6 packs a bit more value but...
11. I get to tell people that I drive a Merc!- its a good fealing I must admit.
12. C230 has poor rear and 3/4 rear visability
13. Its ~900 more if you want to listen to CDs in your Merc - still PO'd about that
14. C7 package of C230!!
15. Gotta love that orion blue too.

Well those are just my opinions but I hope I was able to help. It is a tough choice with the new engine coming. Good luck with whatever you choose- you won't be wrong/sorry either way.

young

i hear VW is going to put their new W engine in...

if you're not brand conscious, get the VW. cheaper ($100 month is a big difference), easier to tune/upgrade, kinda cute, cheerful, good commercials, blah blah blah...

<strike>is the vw a front wheel drive?</strike> i see zimmer answered the question.

btw, mb-bob, i've never met a VW owner who is not a VW fanatic...

---
oh ho! you're 32! you're too old for the GTi...

VeeDubDriver

One question I do have: I pulled out the factory stereo headunit on my Jetta and put in a Blaupunkt Minidisc player. I know you can't really swap the HU out of the C230, so are there any real options for listening to my minidiscs (other than a cassette adaptor)? Does the factory HU have any inputs?

columbus

"... And of course, you can't get the GTI in Orion Blue. ..."

Good point, tommy!

Just like zimmer, if I had been willing to wait, I'd have had to choose. I was originally in the market for exactly that car. The 1.8T is better suited for after-market upgrades, but is not available with the technology package (rain-sensor wipers, climatronic, auto-dimming mirrors). I was eyeing paying less money than for an Audi, Acura, Lexus, or Nissan while still getting the full package plus a delightful new 6-cylinder and 6-speed manual. That's when the C230 K popped up on my radar screen. At base price, it has a lot of stuff like climatronic; I was willing to forgo leather, but liked the sunroof package with rain-sensing wipers, and the C7-Evolution sport package, which is a must in particular if you're getting the 6-speed. And the wheels look great off the rack!
I don't believe the difference in price is that dramatic, but it's probably true that you have more squeeze room with a VW.
Bottom line, zimmer has listed 'em all. I couldn't say it any better myself. Just take it from me: The extra money doesn't figure anymore; the Mercedes is such a delight to drive - the Kompressor is a blast. It's a true little sports car, with the versatility of a hatch. Trust me, I wasn't bent on owning a luxury brand, I care more about practicality, fun to drive, design, and features. The VW is a lot of bang for the buck; the Mercedes just is a little more bang for a few more bucks. Of course, you can go crazy with the options, and quickly reach luxo-Lexus/BMW territory.
I got the sunroof and sport package, 6-speed, and CD-changer (and Orion-Blue, of course), and got it for around 28K. No regrets. Au contraire...

benzy230

haha...wanna bet I jerked mine out and put in a totally different unit. If you would like to see pics let me know!

columbus

Oh, I forgot the most important thing:

Test drive both of them, and you'll just know...one way or the other. My guess is, though, you won't want to get out of the Benz.

benzy230

Really...it just depends on what kind of power you want...the GTI will handle performance changes a lot better, and will cost you less.....but still....you gotta love the benz

Have you considered the WRX??

MB-BOB

At least for the moment, I think you may be pleasantly surprised at the insurance for a Mercedes-Benz. My rates went DOWN when I went from a Ford Probe to the MB sedan. Call your agent and ask. MBs are traditionally driven by older, less risky individuals. That may change over time with the Coupe and C-Class in general, due to the crowd the Coupe attracts, but for the moment at least, you might be able to take advantage of the "traditional" view of MB owners by insurance companies. In contrast, I understand the VW is in the same "tuner" class as the Pac Rim iron, so might be more to insure out of the box.

As far as ESP goes, The MB has multiple layers of ESP, traction control, ABS, Brake assist, etc.

I wouldn't want to be in a VW in a crash, I don't care how many airbags it has, or how good it's rated. But I hope you don't think this comment will bias the others, which I believe are pretty objective.

VeeDubDriver

I drove one back in October and as much as I wanted to, I just couldn't like the car. Well, I just got back from driving one again and again, I just couldn't bring myself to like the car. Let me tell you why, in no particular order.

First, I just didn't fit into it right. I am about 5'8" and a medium build but my right knee kept hitting the center console. Just wasn't comfortable. Second, I didn't like the foot operated parking break. Third, I didn't like to position of the power window switches. I use mine every day and they were just not in a comfortable position (its the little things that matter over the course of ownership). I also didn't like the control for the sunroof. You have to hit the button three different times to fully open it up, and it doesn't have a one-touch close. I guess I have become spoiled by the rotary dial on my VW. The car felt much heavier than my Jetta, just not as tossable. I also didn't like the motor. It was not as smooth as my VR6 and it didn't have the same bottom end power, nor was the power as linear.

I am not saying that it is a bad car. Quite the contrary, I really happen to like the C230, just not for me, especially for the cost difference. For those who think I am on crack about that difference, the sales guy pretty much agreed with me. He did not understand why MBUSA is not more competitive with the lease on this car. He admitted himself that the $100/mo price difference is a hard sell.

Flame away if you must, but I am just being honest.

young

flame away??? if you don't like the car, why'd you even bother asking then? sounds like trolling to me. you want to be flamed???

wait, is there some sort of perverse psycho-sexual-masochistic thing going on here? 'cause, i don't want to be a part of that. :p

MB-BOB

Why did you waste our time?

Goodbye, VeeDubDriver!!!

(Thinking I like the BMW trolls better!)

Boo2

Alot of people here have upgraded their head unit. The command even has Aux inputs to add XM radio, minidisc, etc. Not too sure about the standard HU (if it has Aux), I will leave that answer for those who have it.

As for your VW/Benz delimma. Tough choice. I'm a big fan of VW. My brother had every VR6 made throughout high school. Powerful German engine, smooth transmission, and overall solid performance with excellent response. The stock 0-60 times are over half a second quicker than the C230 (6.5 vs 7.2). There are also more available mods for the GTI. Back in the day, they had $4000 turbo upgrades for the GTI that would get you to almost 400hp. Wonder what is available now? If you prefer performance over brand go with the VW. However, there will always be a situation where brand comes into play (dinner with your wife, cruisin the city, pulling up to a GTI at a gas station, etc.). That is the intrinsic worth of having a Benz. Like I said tough choice.

Being that I too don't lease, I fully agree with MB-BOB; except that I think the so-called "Backend" is MORE important than the "Frontend". There is nothing worse than having a residual value that is higher than the market value of the car. I think the Mercedes provides better protection for that situation. Good luck.

avlis

It sounds like you already made your decision! Go for the VW.

I hope VW improved the feel of the 6spd shifter over the 5spd I drove last year.

tommy

Actually, I thought that these were generally very mature responses. Put the initial question on vw vortex, and see what kind of responses you'd get.

But, I also have to agree with MB-BOB; if you didn't like driving the car, why waste our time? We could have spent all of this time and energy on the always-interesting "how to raise children with money without spoiling them" thread.

VeeDubDriver

I wasn't trying to waste anybody's time. I was truly interested in what everyone had to say. After all of the glowing comments on the C230, I felt I owed it to myself to go drive the car again. I first posted a good hour before I went out and drove the car again. I am not trying to be a troll. I just wanted to know if perhaps there was something I was missing when I drove the car the first time. After coming back from my drive, I posted my feelings and OPINIONS! They may not match yours and that is to be expected.

MB-BOB

Somehow, tommy, I don't think they ever have to worry about such interesting topics on VW-Vortex If that sounds like a flame, then so be it...

young, you were absolutely right with your VW fanatic comment earlier... we've all been had on this thread.

Spyke

Geez, here I was getting all set to drone on about how I was going to get a Jetta, then on a lark drove the C230 and changed my mind...

But, as others have said, you seem to have made your choice. Get the GTI. I had an '84 GTI back in the day and loved it, so there ya go. Different strokes and all that. I just thought the M-B drove "better" for what I want in a car, if for no other reason than it's rear wheel drive...

benzomonterey

That thread seems to have dissapeared.

MB-BOB

...And after 50+ replies, good riddance to it. Lord that was a hateful discussion. I got more useful information out of the 47-reply string on how to "attach that compass in the ash tray."