M272 Misdiagnosed Balance Shaft?
05-12-2019, 01:40 PM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
M272 Misdiagnosed Balance Shaft?
Apologies in advance. I've been reading posts on MBWORLD for years, and you all have been immensely helpful. I know this topic has been beaten to death, but I have yet to find a thread that was similar to my experience. Splint3048 discussed something somewhat similar, but it doesn't seem like the thread was fully concluded.
I have a 2006 c230 sport with an M272 engine. About 134000 miles now. For a couple years, my CEL would come on pretty randomly, specifically when cold out (30 F), and then would disappear. In December of 2018, an MB dealer told me that I had codes P0015 and P0022, and they recommended replacing the cam magnets. I was skeptical since I had replaced all 4 the year before (2017). I decided to get a second opinion. 20 days (January 2019), I went to another dealer. At this point, the CEL was on permanently. They told me I had codes 1200 and 1208, so they told me it was likely the balance shaft or a stretched timing chain. This was my original fear, but it was odd because the VMI that I had said that it had a complete Engine Assembly, Cylinder Head Gasket, Rocker Arm, Chain Tightener, 2 pulse wheels, an intake valve, and an intake manifold replacement in November of 2012 (years after MB acknowledged the defective balance shaft in the original m272 engines. So, the engine assembly SHOULD have had a new balance shaft. I did recently however find a sticker on the intake manifold that says "August 2005" on it, but the old engine serial number was engraved on the replacement engine since they apparently don't get a new serial number?). Also, the p0015 and p0022 codes were not found like the previous dealer had said.
Codes were reconfirmed by MB a week later. They wanted 2,000 dollars to tear the engine down and get a better idea (refused a borescope test).
MBUSA denied to help with the repairs since the engine replacement was done more than 50,000 miles ago.
There have been no symptoms. No timing chain sounds on cold start, no misfires, no stumbling (although occasionally when it's cold I'll get a light hesitation when I press on the accelerator). Also, I've been noticing that it cranks for an extra second than usual when I start it up in the morning, but I think this may be a battery issue.
3 weeks later, another opinion by another MB dealer. They removed the cam sensors and rotated engine to 305 degrees. They said, "Right exhaust cam is retarded. All other cams correct. Recommend replacement of right exhaust cam adjuster (not the magnet, the full adjuster). All other cams are correct at base timing." The service tech told me that this was "absolutely not a balance shaft or timing chain issue," and that the adjuster likely froze up, and that I may get "a little bit of noise or a slight loss of power, but no catastrophic engine damage." They brought me into the garage to take a look. The base timing mark on the right exhaust cam was just slightly (barely) higher than center.
I bought an Icarsoft 1980 to check the values of the cam positions and adaptation data. While driving, I have codes 1200 and 1208. Adaptation data says that there is approximately 4 degrees of adaptation for cams (If I'm not mistaken, I think the computer can compensate up to 20 degrees).
I'm wondering. Is it possible to have these codes due to a faulty cam adjuster? Is it true that a faulty cam adjuster may just cause some noise or a slight loss of power? Was the dealer just sick of me and tried to just get rid of me by telling me it isn't a balance shaft or timing chain issue so I'd stop harassing them?
Any thoughts, ideas, or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Also, if anyone is really knowledgable on cam degree readings from a scanner and adaptation data, I can take pictures of them and post them so you can let me know what you think.
Thank you all!
I have a 2006 c230 sport with an M272 engine. About 134000 miles now. For a couple years, my CEL would come on pretty randomly, specifically when cold out (30 F), and then would disappear. In December of 2018, an MB dealer told me that I had codes P0015 and P0022, and they recommended replacing the cam magnets. I was skeptical since I had replaced all 4 the year before (2017). I decided to get a second opinion. 20 days (January 2019), I went to another dealer. At this point, the CEL was on permanently. They told me I had codes 1200 and 1208, so they told me it was likely the balance shaft or a stretched timing chain. This was my original fear, but it was odd because the VMI that I had said that it had a complete Engine Assembly, Cylinder Head Gasket, Rocker Arm, Chain Tightener, 2 pulse wheels, an intake valve, and an intake manifold replacement in November of 2012 (years after MB acknowledged the defective balance shaft in the original m272 engines. So, the engine assembly SHOULD have had a new balance shaft. I did recently however find a sticker on the intake manifold that says "August 2005" on it, but the old engine serial number was engraved on the replacement engine since they apparently don't get a new serial number?). Also, the p0015 and p0022 codes were not found like the previous dealer had said.
Codes were reconfirmed by MB a week later. They wanted 2,000 dollars to tear the engine down and get a better idea (refused a borescope test).
MBUSA denied to help with the repairs since the engine replacement was done more than 50,000 miles ago.
There have been no symptoms. No timing chain sounds on cold start, no misfires, no stumbling (although occasionally when it's cold I'll get a light hesitation when I press on the accelerator). Also, I've been noticing that it cranks for an extra second than usual when I start it up in the morning, but I think this may be a battery issue.
3 weeks later, another opinion by another MB dealer. They removed the cam sensors and rotated engine to 305 degrees. They said, "Right exhaust cam is retarded. All other cams correct. Recommend replacement of right exhaust cam adjuster (not the magnet, the full adjuster). All other cams are correct at base timing." The service tech told me that this was "absolutely not a balance shaft or timing chain issue," and that the adjuster likely froze up, and that I may get "a little bit of noise or a slight loss of power, but no catastrophic engine damage." They brought me into the garage to take a look. The base timing mark on the right exhaust cam was just slightly (barely) higher than center.
I bought an Icarsoft 1980 to check the values of the cam positions and adaptation data. While driving, I have codes 1200 and 1208. Adaptation data says that there is approximately 4 degrees of adaptation for cams (If I'm not mistaken, I think the computer can compensate up to 20 degrees).
I'm wondering. Is it possible to have these codes due to a faulty cam adjuster? Is it true that a faulty cam adjuster may just cause some noise or a slight loss of power? Was the dealer just sick of me and tried to just get rid of me by telling me it isn't a balance shaft or timing chain issue so I'd stop harassing them?
Any thoughts, ideas, or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Also, if anyone is really knowledgable on cam degree readings from a scanner and adaptation data, I can take pictures of them and post them so you can let me know what you think.
Thank you all!
07-02-2020, 12:03 PM
#4
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2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2001 BMW Z3 3.0 Roadster, 1997 Cherokee XJ
The 3.5 displacement V-6 is found in many Mercedes models between 2006 & 2013 or thereabouts. There appears to be a problem with sensors or solenoids for all years which will trigger the check engine light. There was a recall on a harness too. Do a search on the Net & see what you find. I seriously doubt that the shafts are bad if the vehicle has been serviced according to MB with the special oil filter & Mobil 1. General consensus is that the solenoids do not fail but the sensors which are magnets do fail. This failure will cause a variance in camshaft timing. Hope that this is some help to you.
07-02-2020, 02:18 PM
#5
MBWorld Fanatic!
Exhaust cam out of position will not be the chain.
if the 305 degree check shows an issue then you need to remove the tappet cover and check the valve timing with the marks. Looking at the actual values of valve timing will not teach you much.
post the part numbers of all the cam solenoids
old post but may help someone
if the 305 degree check shows an issue then you need to remove the tappet cover and check the valve timing with the marks. Looking at the actual values of valve timing will not teach you much.
post the part numbers of all the cam solenoids
old post but may help someone
01-24-2022, 08:19 AM
#6
Junior Member
Apologies in advance. I've been reading posts on MBWORLD for years, and you all have been immensely helpful. I know this topic has been beaten to death, but I have yet to find a thread that was similar to my experience. Splint3048 discussed something somewhat similar, but it doesn't seem like the thread was fully concluded.
I have a 2006 c230 sport with an M272 engine. About 134000 miles now. For a couple years, my CEL would come on pretty randomly, specifically when cold out (30 F), and then would disappear. In December of 2018, an MB dealer told me that I had codes P0015 and P0022, and they recommended replacing the cam magnets. I was skeptical since I had replaced all 4 the year before (2017). I decided to get a second opinion. 20 days (January 2019), I went to another dealer. At this point, the CEL was on permanently. They told me I had codes 1200 and 1208, so they told me it was likely the balance shaft or a stretched timing chain. This was my original fear, but it was odd because the VMI that I had said that it had a complete Engine Assembly, Cylinder Head Gasket, Rocker Arm, Chain Tightener, 2 pulse wheels, an intake valve, and an intake manifold replacement in November of 2012 (years after MB acknowledged the defective balance shaft in the original m272 engines. So, the engine assembly SHOULD have had a new balance shaft. I did recently however find a sticker on the intake manifold that says "August 2005" on it, but the old engine serial number was engraved on the replacement engine since they apparently don't get a new serial number?). Also, the p0015 and p0022 codes were not found like the previous dealer had said.
Codes were reconfirmed by MB a week later. They wanted 2,000 dollars to tear the engine down and get a better idea (refused a borescope test).
MBUSA denied to help with the repairs since the engine replacement was done more than 50,000 miles ago.
There have been no symptoms. No timing chain sounds on cold start, no misfires, no stumbling (although occasionally when it's cold I'll get a light hesitation when I press on the accelerator). Also, I've been noticing that it cranks for an extra second than usual when I start it up in the morning, but I think this may be a battery issue.
3 weeks later, another opinion by another MB dealer. They removed the cam sensors and rotated engine to 305 degrees. They said, "Right exhaust cam is retarded. All other cams correct. Recommend replacement of right exhaust cam adjuster (not the magnet, the full adjuster). All other cams are correct at base timing." The service tech told me that this was "absolutely not a balance shaft or timing chain issue," and that the adjuster likely froze up, and that I may get "a little bit of noise or a slight loss of power, but no catastrophic engine damage." They brought me into the garage to take a look. The base timing mark on the right exhaust cam was just slightly (barely) higher than center.
I bought an Icarsoft 1980 to check the values of the cam positions and adaptation data. While driving, I have codes 1200 and 1208. Adaptation data says that there is approximately 4 degrees of adaptation for cams (If I'm not mistaken, I think the computer can compensate up to 20 degrees).
I'm wondering. Is it possible to have these codes due to a faulty cam adjuster? Is it true that a faulty cam adjuster may just cause some noise or a slight loss of power? Was the dealer just sick of me and tried to just get rid of me by telling me it isn't a balance shaft or timing chain issue so I'd stop harassing them?
Any thoughts, ideas, or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Also, if anyone is really knowledgable on cam degree readings from a scanner and adaptation data, I can take pictures of them and post them so you can let me know what you think.
Thank you all!
I have a 2006 c230 sport with an M272 engine. About 134000 miles now. For a couple years, my CEL would come on pretty randomly, specifically when cold out (30 F), and then would disappear. In December of 2018, an MB dealer told me that I had codes P0015 and P0022, and they recommended replacing the cam magnets. I was skeptical since I had replaced all 4 the year before (2017). I decided to get a second opinion. 20 days (January 2019), I went to another dealer. At this point, the CEL was on permanently. They told me I had codes 1200 and 1208, so they told me it was likely the balance shaft or a stretched timing chain. This was my original fear, but it was odd because the VMI that I had said that it had a complete Engine Assembly, Cylinder Head Gasket, Rocker Arm, Chain Tightener, 2 pulse wheels, an intake valve, and an intake manifold replacement in November of 2012 (years after MB acknowledged the defective balance shaft in the original m272 engines. So, the engine assembly SHOULD have had a new balance shaft. I did recently however find a sticker on the intake manifold that says "August 2005" on it, but the old engine serial number was engraved on the replacement engine since they apparently don't get a new serial number?). Also, the p0015 and p0022 codes were not found like the previous dealer had said.
Codes were reconfirmed by MB a week later. They wanted 2,000 dollars to tear the engine down and get a better idea (refused a borescope test).
MBUSA denied to help with the repairs since the engine replacement was done more than 50,000 miles ago.
There have been no symptoms. No timing chain sounds on cold start, no misfires, no stumbling (although occasionally when it's cold I'll get a light hesitation when I press on the accelerator). Also, I've been noticing that it cranks for an extra second than usual when I start it up in the morning, but I think this may be a battery issue.
3 weeks later, another opinion by another MB dealer. They removed the cam sensors and rotated engine to 305 degrees. They said, "Right exhaust cam is retarded. All other cams correct. Recommend replacement of right exhaust cam adjuster (not the magnet, the full adjuster). All other cams are correct at base timing." The service tech told me that this was "absolutely not a balance shaft or timing chain issue," and that the adjuster likely froze up, and that I may get "a little bit of noise or a slight loss of power, but no catastrophic engine damage." They brought me into the garage to take a look. The base timing mark on the right exhaust cam was just slightly (barely) higher than center.
I bought an Icarsoft 1980 to check the values of the cam positions and adaptation data. While driving, I have codes 1200 and 1208. Adaptation data says that there is approximately 4 degrees of adaptation for cams (If I'm not mistaken, I think the computer can compensate up to 20 degrees).
I'm wondering. Is it possible to have these codes due to a faulty cam adjuster? Is it true that a faulty cam adjuster may just cause some noise or a slight loss of power? Was the dealer just sick of me and tried to just get rid of me by telling me it isn't a balance shaft or timing chain issue so I'd stop harassing them?
Any thoughts, ideas, or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Also, if anyone is really knowledgable on cam degree readings from a scanner and adaptation data, I can take pictures of them and post them so you can let me know what you think.
Thank you all!
@Michiganw203: Any resolution afterward? I had issue very much similar to you--codes 1208 and 1200 with 305 degree check show exhausted cam off center. Both solenoid have been replaced. What else to be done? Thank you all.
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02-27-2022, 09:37 AM
#8
Junior Member
CEL on 1208 Fixed - Believe on facts not Dealers or Indys
+1 on pete diegan and michiganw203, right exhaust cam is off center, the rest centered. Codes 1200 and 1208, no check engine light.
Any ideas/solution other than cam adjuster?
Any ideas/solution other than cam adjuster?
Trouble-shooting steps:
a) Basic timing check with 305 and Bank 1 Intake/Exhaust done last month which show Intake right at center.
b) Continue with Bank 2 Intake removal of sensor, observed and removed oil sludges. Checked pulse wheel mark and found it's perfectly centered.
c) That gave me the conclusion that I don't have problem with timing chain stretched nor balance shaft worn. Why? The circle of BS, Bank2 intake and Bank1 intake is in perfect locations, operations!
d) Proceeded to replace Bank1 exhaust wiring harness (oily) and Bank1 intake sensor (may play a role), cleaned Bank2 intake sensor, areas for oil sludge.
e) Put back together. No CEL for 200 miles and 10 days. I wanted to wait until 500-1,000 miles in 30 days to declare completed fix. But since you asked, I'll say preliminary results is very encouraging given that drove at 4,000 rpm and 80 mph without no problem at all (unlike previously would set CEL).
Lessons learnt:
1) Diagnostic tool may stop showing Intake location after 36.2 degree was perhaps by design. It doesn't mean cam adjuster no longer works (as evidently in mileage continue to be satisfaction).
2) Removed OBD2 device from port (previously left it there permanently due to need to reset CEL).
3) Indy did a software update which might be of help too. But this is after my CEL was gone for 10 trips in 3 days--which didn't happen before.
Conclusion: MB is complicated but with all researches done and proper trouble-shooting processes, you could fix what dealers/indys want you to pay 10-30 times more over.
02-28-2022, 04:31 AM
#9
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@daver Yes, very good news. After the dealers had given me bills of $9,000 for balance shaft replacement; Indys given me bills of $3,000 for chain and tensioner; I had budgeted $1000-3000 for camshaft adjuster repair, replacement. In the end, I spent less than $300 and had codes 1208/1200 fixed!
Trouble-shooting steps:
a) Basic timing check with 305 and Bank 1 Intake/Exhaust done last month which show Intake right at center.
b) Continue with Bank 2 Intake removal of sensor, observed and removed oil sludges. Checked pulse wheel mark and found it's perfectly centered.
c) That gave me the conclusion that I don't have problem with timing chain stretched nor balance shaft worn. Why? The circle of BS, Bank2 intake and Bank1 intake is in perfect locations, operations!
d) Proceeded to replace Bank1 exhaust wiring harness (oily) and Bank1 intake sensor (may play a role), cleaned Bank2 intake sensor, areas for oil sludge.
e) Put back together. No CEL for 200 miles and 10 days. I wanted to wait until 500-1,000 miles in 30 days to declare completed fix. But since you asked, I'll say preliminary results is very encouraging given that drove at 4,000 rpm and 80 mph without no problem at all (unlike previously would set CEL).
Lessons learnt:
1) Diagnostic tool may stop showing Intake location after 36.2 degree was perhaps by design. It doesn't mean cam adjuster no longer works (as evidently in mileage continue to be satisfaction).
2) Removed OBD2 device from port (previously left it there permanently due to need to reset CEL).
3) Indy did a software update which might be of help too. But this is after my CEL was gone for 10 trips in 3 days--which didn't happen before.
Conclusion: MB is complicated but with all researches done and proper trouble-shooting processes, you could fix what dealers/indys want you to pay 10-30 times more over.
Trouble-shooting steps:
a) Basic timing check with 305 and Bank 1 Intake/Exhaust done last month which show Intake right at center.
b) Continue with Bank 2 Intake removal of sensor, observed and removed oil sludges. Checked pulse wheel mark and found it's perfectly centered.
c) That gave me the conclusion that I don't have problem with timing chain stretched nor balance shaft worn. Why? The circle of BS, Bank2 intake and Bank1 intake is in perfect locations, operations!
d) Proceeded to replace Bank1 exhaust wiring harness (oily) and Bank1 intake sensor (may play a role), cleaned Bank2 intake sensor, areas for oil sludge.
e) Put back together. No CEL for 200 miles and 10 days. I wanted to wait until 500-1,000 miles in 30 days to declare completed fix. But since you asked, I'll say preliminary results is very encouraging given that drove at 4,000 rpm and 80 mph without no problem at all (unlike previously would set CEL).
Lessons learnt:
1) Diagnostic tool may stop showing Intake location after 36.2 degree was perhaps by design. It doesn't mean cam adjuster no longer works (as evidently in mileage continue to be satisfaction).
2) Removed OBD2 device from port (previously left it there permanently due to need to reset CEL).
3) Indy did a software update which might be of help too. But this is after my CEL was gone for 10 trips in 3 days--which didn't happen before.
Conclusion: MB is complicated but with all researches done and proper trouble-shooting processes, you could fix what dealers/indys want you to pay 10-30 times more over.
Last edited by DaveR_; 04-19-2022 at 12:35 PM.
02-28-2022, 08:45 AM
#10
Junior Member
Were you able to pinpoint the problem? Basically you replaced a wire harness and a sensor in bank 1 on a hunch, and cleaned the remaining sensors. 1200 and 1208 as i understand are codes for right/bank 2/drivers side.
I dont even have a check engine light, on the other hand I have had a few occurrences (2-3 in the last 10 months) with shaky engine idle and running, but no CEL and one or two restarts is all it takes for it to go away.
I dont even have a check engine light, on the other hand I have had a few occurrences (2-3 in the last 10 months) with shaky engine idle and running, but no CEL and one or two restarts is all it takes for it to go away.
No, DTC 1208/1200 are serious issues on passenger side (Bank 1) that could have cost thousands and thousands dollars for repair. Come back here for consultation if and when you got to that point.
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