1st Step of M271 Pulley Kit development Complete!
#52
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2002 C230 Coupe(M111)
Originally Posted by aries palmiotto
It is a legitimate concern and question.
Increasing the boost of your S/C means increasing the normal speed of the turbines/screws. There are engineering reasons why the S/C's are running at the speeds that the factory designed it for.
From what I understand, you also have the clutch mechanism which engages and disengages at specified spindle speeds. Should you increase the speed of your drive belt, such timing of when the clutch engages and disengages also changes.
Most tuning companies take these limits at its mechanical thresholds. As Vadim stated, proper or wrong upgrades places additional stress on the engine. More power equals more stress and unlike the human body, engines cannot build additional muscle as it gets worked out.
So let's assume that even if my theories are somewhat mixed up, allow me to pose a question...
So what if, since no two like engines are identical, you end up with a lemon engine. And at the point where you installed a pulley to increase your blower speed, you reach the break point???
My question goes back.... what do you do?
Increasing the boost of your S/C means increasing the normal speed of the turbines/screws. There are engineering reasons why the S/C's are running at the speeds that the factory designed it for.
From what I understand, you also have the clutch mechanism which engages and disengages at specified spindle speeds. Should you increase the speed of your drive belt, such timing of when the clutch engages and disengages also changes.
Most tuning companies take these limits at its mechanical thresholds. As Vadim stated, proper or wrong upgrades places additional stress on the engine. More power equals more stress and unlike the human body, engines cannot build additional muscle as it gets worked out.
So let's assume that even if my theories are somewhat mixed up, allow me to pose a question...
So what if, since no two like engines are identical, you end up with a lemon engine. And at the point where you installed a pulley to increase your blower speed, you reach the break point???
My question goes back.... what do you do?
So, I appreciate you following up without saying" F*ck off, I can say what I want" and actually trying to explain your position, I'd ask you to just relax and let this take its course. These folks have waited long enough for some real mods. If the risk is too great, let them decide to say no.
#53
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2002 C230 Coupe(M111)
Originally Posted by breastroker
aries,
I
Once the stock pulley is off, a split, self aligning pulley with the ability to use different ratios would be cool! The Minis use 15% and 19% smaller pulleys.
I would like to start with a 10 % smaller and work up to a 15 %
I
Once the stock pulley is off, a split, self aligning pulley with the ability to use different ratios would be cool! The Minis use 15% and 19% smaller pulleys.
I would like to start with a 10 % smaller and work up to a 15 %
If you go with a supercharger pulley, I think you'll have either make it with thinner material on the portion where the belt rides, or shave the cone under the pulley. I had this argument with Kleeman one time, and he insists that the cone intrudes under the pulley, and no clearance exists for a smaller nose pulley. Looking at the pics, its obvious the MB engineers went to great lengths to make more boost difficult. Foolish thinking on a car that they market to this crowd...you gotta build in somereasonably easily attainable HP thru modding, or the car will just die in the aftermarket.
#54
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Originally Posted by Buellwinkle
Damm, now I'll have to buy a Maybach.
On a serious note - they better offer more stick across the board... Including AMG, of course!!
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2003 Citron Green C230KMT
Originally Posted by vadim
Yes, Carl - that's exactly what MB wants! And look - you are already out of your ("entry-level") coupe, with a later year sedan...
On a serious note - they better offer more stick across the board... Including AMG, of course!!
On a serious note - they better offer more stick across the board... Including AMG, of course!!
a stick was a major reason for me not getting the CLK. lease vs. finance was one, but a huge factor was no stick with the CLK. i mean, why not have it as a no cost option? whatever. ill just mod my coupe until i get it to where i want.
i would love to see alot more stick hit our shores.
#57
Originally Posted by Outland
Your post is crap because it just discourages interest in a project like this. I have the M111 engine, and there's a pulley sitting in my garage until the car gets parked for winter- So I don't have any personal interest in this particular project. I dislike the attitude that "this car is a finely tuned system and anychanges will destroy it". Nonsense. Look, no one is going to force you to put this on your car- and these aren't your kids, or your insurance business clientel. Right now, people are going to sit back , and take a wait and see approach- if Sauceman's results are promising, Evosport is going to make some dollars and probably earn some respect back on this board. And if it doesn't work out, or if something breaks, I hope Evosport supports Sauceman and makes it right again. ASP did when the infamous ASP Alloy Pulleys had issues. So, don't be poo-poo'ing this for these guys. Its up to them. Obviously, when you tinker with a proven system- there will be some risks. There may be none. There may side effects- that can be managed. Perhaps a better intercooler, or a sprayer system will be employed to help the current one do a better job of reducing the charge temp. So, please refrain from the gloom and doom and freezing supercharger type posts. It will discourage others, and eventually the tuner. That, along with the "I want 300HP for $2.99" grousing(often from the same people that worried about crazy frozen superchargers) is what killed Brandon's Lysholm conversion.
So, I appreciate you following up without saying" F*ck off, I can say what I want" and actually trying to explain your position, I'd ask you to just relax and let this take its course. These folks have waited long enough for some real mods. If the risk is too great, let them decide to say no.
So, I appreciate you following up without saying" F*ck off, I can say what I want" and actually trying to explain your position, I'd ask you to just relax and let this take its course. These folks have waited long enough for some real mods. If the risk is too great, let them decide to say no.
This is a public board with a wealth of information, but that wealth of information should not be limited to one sided stories or knowledge.
In any scenario, readers must be entitled to know both the upside and downside, if one or more exists. It's not intended to discourage or badmouth anyone just so you know.
#58
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Originally Posted by vadim
Yes, Carl - that's exactly what MB wants! And look - you are already out of your ("entry-level") coupe, with a later year sedan...
On a serious note - they better offer more stick across the board... Including AMG, of course!!
On a serious note - they better offer more stick across the board... Including AMG, of course!!
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2003 C230 K , 2001 ML320
"
The whole point is the M271 is near the maximum RPM limit of the supercharger. It is already turning over 2000 RPM more at 6000 engine RPM than the supercharger on the M111 engine.
That is why I suggest starting at only 10 %, 10 % of 16,000 RPM is another 1600! That would mean the supercharger would be turning over 17,600 when the crank is turning 6,000!!!!
I was reading Mercedes Enthusiast, Carlsson talks about the CK20 kit that raises boost pressure 0.1 bar with a smaller pulley and remapped ECU.
Many other cars with superchargers are machining the supercharger snout so that a smaller pulley can be installed. Far less problems than with the larger crank pulley. It seems only the Mercedes crowd uses crank pulleys.
This could be done with one core supercharger, send in your snout and get a pre machned one with a smaller pulley installed. I doubt even a MB mechanic would spot the difference if the smaller supercharger pulley was black.
Below is a machined supercharger snout!
What's the stock boost on the Cooper S? I thought it was significantly lower than the M271?
That is why I suggest starting at only 10 %, 10 % of 16,000 RPM is another 1600! That would mean the supercharger would be turning over 17,600 when the crank is turning 6,000!!!!
I was reading Mercedes Enthusiast, Carlsson talks about the CK20 kit that raises boost pressure 0.1 bar with a smaller pulley and remapped ECU.
Many other cars with superchargers are machining the supercharger snout so that a smaller pulley can be installed. Far less problems than with the larger crank pulley. It seems only the Mercedes crowd uses crank pulleys.
This could be done with one core supercharger, send in your snout and get a pre machned one with a smaller pulley installed. I doubt even a MB mechanic would spot the difference if the smaller supercharger pulley was black.
Below is a machined supercharger snout!
Last edited by breastroker; 10-27-2004 at 12:46 AM.
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2002 C230 Coupe(M111)
Originally Posted by aries palmiotto
Wow, you have some serious issues! My post to you is crap, but your immature attitude to me is something I don't even want to start describing. If you do not like what you read out of my posts, then you should just keep your reservations to yourself.
This is a public board with a wealth of information, but that wealth of information should not be limited to one sided stories or knowledge.
In any scenario, readers must be entitled to know both the upside and downside, if one or more exists. It's not intended to discourage or badmouth anyone just so you know.
This is a public board with a wealth of information, but that wealth of information should not be limited to one sided stories or knowledge.
In any scenario, readers must be entitled to know both the upside and downside, if one or more exists. It's not intended to discourage or badmouth anyone just so you know.
I hardly think this this was being childish to you:
So, I appreciate you following up without saying" F*ck off, I can say what I want" and actually trying to explain your position, I'd ask you to just relax and let this take its course. These folks have waited long enough for some real mods. If the risk is too great, let them decide to say no.
#61
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2002 C230 Coupe(M111)
Originally Posted by Buellwinkle
Sure, maybe they don't have a stick on the Maybach but it did come with a speedometer for the back seat, how many cars have that? Reminds me of when I flew aerobatic aircraft and the front and rear had speedometers (actually air speed indicators).
#62
Originally Posted by Outland
No I don't. I just been thru this so many times, and it really doesn't help when someone starts off with all the alarmist nonsense. He's hoping to drum up interest. When there's interest, the tuner listens. When someone pops off with the gloom and doom, interest twindles, mods may not happen at all because the tuner sees his dollars blowing away.
I hardly think this this was being childish to you:
But I spoke to soon, and now youre at the "I can say whatever I want" stage. So, lets leave it at that. If you want to continue to pound sand, there's always PM's. Back to the discussion.
I hardly think this this was being childish to you:
But I spoke to soon, and now youre at the "I can say whatever I want" stage. So, lets leave it at that. If you want to continue to pound sand, there's always PM's. Back to the discussion.
FWIW to those wondering how to remove the pulley:
There are 2 common pulley removal tools from MB... one is the 3-stud, and a 5-stud. The 1.8L motor needs the 5-stud, OR...
a compact 3/8 impact gun with at least 260 ft-lbs of torque @ 90psi in reverse (IngersollRand IR2112), with a 27mm socket. This requires removal of most intake plumbing and plastics between the radiator and the front of the engine.
Once the locking nut is removed, the pulley just slides out easily. Remember to reinstall the centering washer since this piece gets lost into the engine's splash liner as the pulley is removed.
#63
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Originally Posted by Buellwinkle
Sure, maybe they don't have a stick on the Maybach but it did come with a speedometer for the back seat, how many cars have that? Reminds me of when I flew aerobatic aircraft and the front and rear had speedometers (actually air speed indicators).
#64
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2002 C230 Coupe(M111)
Originally Posted by breastroker
"
The whole point is the M271 is near the maximum RPM limit of the supercharger. It is already turning over 2000 RPM more at 6000 engine RPM than the supercharger on the M111 engine.
The whole point is the M271 is near the maximum RPM limit of the supercharger. It is already turning over 2000 RPM more at 6000 engine RPM than the supercharger on the M111 engine.
That is why I suggest starting at only 10 %, 10 % of 16,000 RPM is another 1600! That would mean the supercharger would be turning over 17,600 when the crank is turning 6,000!!!!
I was reading Mercedes Enthusiast, Carlsson talks about the CK20 kit that raises boost pressure 0.1 bar with a smaller pulley and remapped ECU.
Many other cars with superchargers are machining the supercharger snout so that a smaller pulley can be installed. Far less problems than with the larger crank pulley. It seems only the Mercedes crowd uses crank pulleys.
This could be done with one core supercharger, send in your snout and get a pre machned one with a smaller pulley installed. I doubt even a MB mechanic would spot the difference if the smaller supercharger pulley was black.
Below is a machined supercharger snout![/QUOTE]
Outstanding.
#65
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C230K
Word to the wise, whoever posted earlier that this mod won't void your warranty is out of there mind. Read your warranty documentation closely and you will see that this type of mod is NOT covered. Once MB puts your car on the analyzer and the fault history indicates that you were achieving higher boost than normal it's over. It amazes me how many owners are lining up to be part of this little science experiment. Now if you're off of warranty then that's a different matter. I've been tuning engines since most of you were in diapers. Keep in mind that whenever you add significant additional stress whether it be more power, more grip, more whatever on a vehicle something has to give unless you beef up every part involved and whole solution will only be as strong as the weakest link. Bolt on HP is cheap in the beginning and expensive in the end.
Good Luck.
Good Luck.
#66
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2003 C230
BS, It's not like the S/C will run at that high boost ALL the time
How often do you rev to 6K? I want more boost in the 2.5-5K range. If I can have 15psi at 5K I'd be shifting there more often.
CZ
CZ
#68
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Thread Starter
Alright, these are the Group Buy potentials so far. If you want to be added just post "I AM IN"
1.CitronC230k 03
2.Scottisha
3.JakeSnake
4.nlpamg
5.kiketron
6.breastroker
7.xxbenzc230kxx
8.mctwin2kman
9.tyro ??
1.CitronC230k 03
2.Scottisha
3.JakeSnake
4.nlpamg
5.kiketron
6.breastroker
7.xxbenzc230kxx
8.mctwin2kman
9.tyro ??
#69
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2003 C230K Sport Coupe, 1986 190E 2.3
Originally Posted by CitronC230K_03
im gunning it if i rev it up to 4000 rpm.
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1959 220S / 1979 230 G / 2002 A210 AMG / 2003 C320 SC / 2004.5 C320 SS / 2005 ML350 SE / 2008 smart
Originally Posted by UStifosi
It amazes me how many owners are lining up to be part of this little science experiment. ... Keep in mind that whenever you add significant additional stress whether it be more power, more grip, more whatever on a vehicle something has to give unless you beef up every part involved and whole solution will only be as strong as the weakest link. Bolt on HP is cheap in the beginning and expensive in the end.
Good Luck.
Good Luck.
#72
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Originally Posted by Saprissa
Yup, that pretty much sums it up !
It is again the users choice to mod or not, but please do not try to scare off other members that are willing to have more power in their cars.
You both still rock!
-Danny
#73
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Originally Posted by UStifosi
Once MB puts your car on the analyzer and the fault history indicates that you were achieving higher boost than normal it's over
Hmm...then everyone with an ASP on the 2.3 would already be busted.
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2003 C230 K , 2001 ML320
The M271 has been out almost two LONG years, with little USA development.
From what I can determine the follow mods gain some power:
K&N air filter ~ 2 HP
Renntech muffler ~ 3 HP without other mods up to 5 with ECU and same with pulley upgrade
ECU upgrade ~ 6 HP by self, up to 10 more with muffler upgrade and pulley
Crank pulley (Carlsson, MKB, etc) ~10 -15 HP by self
Crank pulley, ECU, sport muffler and air filter ~ 20-25 HP. The euro tuners charge about $2000, $2600 for that 20-25 HP!!
Stock HP about 157-162 to rear wheels.
We now know the ECU can be programed through the OBD2 port, don't even have to touch the ECU.
A quality steel smaller supercharger pulley should run less than $200, about $400 installed. Combine with a $60 K&N air filter and $600 muffler, another $300 for larger alternator pulley and PS pump pulley.
If Evosport could get us 25 rear wheel HP reliable, it would be worth a grand. Add a better $800 intercooler and perhaps we could have 30-35 HP for under $2000 installed.
Like the C32 AMG brakes, I think Evosport could get 25 cars to sign up for the $1000 kit gaining 25 HP. Maybe another 10 for the kit plus IC.
If we had to go to a crank pulley everything will go up $300-500! That is when all thr crank ballance, and oil seal problems occur.
From what I can determine the follow mods gain some power:
K&N air filter ~ 2 HP
Renntech muffler ~ 3 HP without other mods up to 5 with ECU and same with pulley upgrade
ECU upgrade ~ 6 HP by self, up to 10 more with muffler upgrade and pulley
Crank pulley (Carlsson, MKB, etc) ~10 -15 HP by self
Crank pulley, ECU, sport muffler and air filter ~ 20-25 HP. The euro tuners charge about $2000, $2600 for that 20-25 HP!!
Stock HP about 157-162 to rear wheels.
We now know the ECU can be programed through the OBD2 port, don't even have to touch the ECU.
A quality steel smaller supercharger pulley should run less than $200, about $400 installed. Combine with a $60 K&N air filter and $600 muffler, another $300 for larger alternator pulley and PS pump pulley.
If Evosport could get us 25 rear wheel HP reliable, it would be worth a grand. Add a better $800 intercooler and perhaps we could have 30-35 HP for under $2000 installed.
Like the C32 AMG brakes, I think Evosport could get 25 cars to sign up for the $1000 kit gaining 25 HP. Maybe another 10 for the kit plus IC.
If we had to go to a crank pulley everything will go up $300-500! That is when all thr crank ballance, and oil seal problems occur.
#75
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Originally Posted by breastroker
The M271 has been out almost two LONG years, with little USA development.
From what I can determine the follow mods gain some power:
K&N air filter ~ 2 HP
Renntech muffler ~ 3 HP without other mods up to 5 with ECU and same with pulley upgrade
ECU upgrade ~ 6 HP by self, up to 10 more with muffler upgrade and pulley
Crank pulley (Carlsson, MKB, etc) ~10 -15 HP by self
Crank pulley, ECU, sport muffler and air filter ~ 20-25 HP. The euro tuners charge about $2000, $2600 for that 20-25 HP!!
Stock HP about 157-162 to rear wheels.
We now know the ECU can be programed through the OBD2 port, don't even have to touch the ECU.
A quality steel smaller supercharger pulley should run less than $200, about $400 installed. Combine with a $60 K&N air filter and $600 muffler, another $300 for larger alternator pulley and PS pump pulley.
If Evosport could get us 25 rear wheel HP reliable, it would be worth a grand. Add a better $800 intercooler and perhaps we could have 30-35 HP for under $2000 installed.
Like the C32 AMG brakes, I think Evosport could get 25 cars to sign up for the $1000 kit gaining 25 HP. Maybe another 10 for the kit plus IC.
If we had to go to a crank pulley everything will go up $300-500! That is when all thr crank ballance, and oil seal problems occur.
From what I can determine the follow mods gain some power:
K&N air filter ~ 2 HP
Renntech muffler ~ 3 HP without other mods up to 5 with ECU and same with pulley upgrade
ECU upgrade ~ 6 HP by self, up to 10 more with muffler upgrade and pulley
Crank pulley (Carlsson, MKB, etc) ~10 -15 HP by self
Crank pulley, ECU, sport muffler and air filter ~ 20-25 HP. The euro tuners charge about $2000, $2600 for that 20-25 HP!!
Stock HP about 157-162 to rear wheels.
We now know the ECU can be programed through the OBD2 port, don't even have to touch the ECU.
A quality steel smaller supercharger pulley should run less than $200, about $400 installed. Combine with a $60 K&N air filter and $600 muffler, another $300 for larger alternator pulley and PS pump pulley.
If Evosport could get us 25 rear wheel HP reliable, it would be worth a grand. Add a better $800 intercooler and perhaps we could have 30-35 HP for under $2000 installed.
Like the C32 AMG brakes, I think Evosport could get 25 cars to sign up for the $1000 kit gaining 25 HP. Maybe another 10 for the kit plus IC.
If we had to go to a crank pulley everything will go up $300-500! That is when all thr crank ballance, and oil seal problems occur.
In the sense of boost increase, he's look about 2 1/2 psi.. Anyway, all this will be proven in testing. Kit should be ready in about 6-8 weeks. I'll keep you all posted.
If you guys want in on the potential group buy (im just gauging interest) please say "I AM IN"
Thanks guys,
-Danny