RandyG

Mary, Some reading for you.

Perhaps you should redirect your diatribes towards Fortune, JD Powers, and Consumer Reports.

Fortune Magazine - Nov 20, 2006

Most and least reliable cars

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- There is an old saying in the newspaper business that you shouldn't pick a fight with somebody who buys ink by the gallon.

That hasn't stopped Mercedes-Benz from taking a few swipes at Consumer Reports over some very damaging reviews of Mercedes vehicles.

First some background: For the 2007 edition of its New Car Preview, Consumer Reports surveyed its six million subscribers about what serious problems they had with the cars they own. Some 1.3 million responded and the results weren't good for Mercedes-Benz.

Here's a brief blow-by-blow: In a listing of the least reliable luxury cars, based on 2006 models, three of the six cars are Mercedes: the old S-class (prior to the recent redesign), the CLS and the E-class Sedan

Same thing in sport cars. Mercedes hogged three of the seven slots for least reliable: the SL, the CLK and the V6 SLK.

Among mid-sized SUVs, the M-class, a quality disaster when it first came out, still ranks as the least reliable in its grouping.

Other luxury manufacturers turn up on the least reliable list, with BMWs, Jaguars and Cadillacs sprinkled throughout.

But what is striking about Mercedes' performance is its consistency. Of the 11 models reviewed by Consumers, none are recommended. Seven are left off of the list because of poor reliability; the remaining four are considered too new to predict.

Mercedes has the worst record of any automaker with that many models. For a brand that claims to be "engineered like no other car in the world," that is fairly frightening.

"They understand the problems and they are fixing some of them, but they have a long way to come," says David Champion, director of automotive testing at Consumers.

For its part, a spokesman for Mercedes says that the data in the Consumer Reports rankings "is totally out of sync with what we're seeing in the mainstream research as well as our own customer satisfaction and warranty data." He points to the good marks Mercedes gets for ride, handling, comfort, safety and performance.

He may be whistling into a windstorm, though. "Car buyers pay a lot of attention to CR's ratings," says industry consultant George Peterson. "They perceive them as unbiased."

Research by Peterson's own firm, AutoPacific, substantiates CR's findings. Its 2006 Ideal Vehicle Awards show Mercedes not only ranking ninth out of ten among luxury brands but also lower than the top ten mainstream brands like Hyundai (Charts) and Subaru.

Quality problems have been a big issue at Mercedes for several years and the company keeps insisting It has a handle on them. But issues keep cropping up.

The JD Power Initial quality study for 2006 models, which measures defects identified by customers during the first 90 days of ownership, put Mercedes at 25th out of a field of 37 brands. That was well behind leaders like Porsche, Toyota's (Charts) Lexus, Jaguar, GM's (Charts) Cadillac and Infiniti, though still two notches ahead of BMW.

The Mercedes spokesman blames that low ranking on two major complaints: brake dust from the high performance brakes and problems with the new seven speed transmission, that he says have been repaired.

He adds: "As you're aware, the IQS included a new survey methodology by JD Power which goes well beyond the actual quality of the vehicles and into subjective measurement (an important distinction) of how customers feel about such things as the design, look and operation of features, controls and equipment."

Mercedes still makes superb automobiles - striking in design, sophisticated in engineering, exhilarating in performance. It attracts hugely loyal buyers and its cars retain value better than most.

But being a leader means being constantly under attack by those behind you. Along with BMW and Lexus, Mercedes ranks in the top tier of luxury brands.

But until it can tame the devilish complexity of its cars into more reliable transportation, its position will remain precarious. And it doesn't help to be in denial about the problems you face - or to attack the messenger who delivers the bad news.

pmb600

RandyG, perhaps you would also like to discuss that Mercedes has climbed up I think something like 20 places on the JD Power initial satisfaction survey and won four awards this year for the S-Class, CL-Class, E-Class, and GL-Class.

In addition, Mercedes-Benz was #3 on the 2007 JD Power APEAL study behind only Porsche and BMW. Note ahead of Lexus, Infiniti, Acura and obivously all the rest.

This is just some food for thought...you might want to look at more than just Consumer Reports when attacking the validity of Mary's or other posts.

KA8

oooh another reliability thread...

Well MB sucks! Power steering was replaced before it reached 500 miles and now the noise is slowly creeping up again. It doesn't happen all the time so it's hard to reproduce. what a shame
Oh and the interior looks like the ones from Hyundai Tiburon

pmb600

So you think your one experience with Mercedes is indicative of all Mercedes reliability?

MBTex

Maybe you should post your complaint in the W203 board....unless you also own a W204.

AsianML

Thread...must...die...

Anyway, as pmb600 pointed out in one of his posts, I think one of the main reasons the interior looks cheap is basically the "grain" or "stamped" pattern of the dash and door trim.

RandyG

APEAL Award Summary:
2007 APEAL Awards: Porsche Tops Again; Honda Captures Most Awards

WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.: 28 June 2007 — Honda captures four model segment awards—more than any other vehicle nameplate this year—according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2007 Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout (APEAL) StudySM released today.

The study, now in its 12th year, measures owner delight with the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicles. APEAL is designed to complement the J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality StudySM (IQS), which focuses on problems experienced by owners during the first 90 days of ownership. APEAL measures how gratifying a new vehicle is to own and drive.

Honda’s four segment-leading models are the Fit (in a tie), CR-V, Ridgeline and Odyssey. BMW and Mercedes-Benz receive three segment awards, while Ford, Nissan and Volkswagen each garner two awards. BMW models receiving awards include the 3 Series, 6 Series and X5, while Mercedes-Benz earns awards for the E-Class, S-Class and GL-Class. Ford models earning awards are the Mustang and Edge. Volkswagen receives awards for the Jetta and GTI, while Nissan earns awards for the Altima Sedan and Armada.

pmb600

What this press release doesn't clearly articulate is that MB earned third place out of all manufacturers. Certainly a good achievement.

pmb600

Look, I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to make the point that I don't put much stock in these rating systems. Some of them are increidibly subjective and some of them (like the inital quality survey) will count things as defects that aren't really defects. Let's not forget that Mercedes are pretty complicated with much of their technology and features and that most people are dumb as s*** and then they review the car badly because they don't know how to work it. Another thing to consider...for the APEAL survey the average response rate is 21% and for Mercedes owners is 15%. So you are taking a small sample, and then only getting very few responses, any marketing research person with half a brain will tell you this equals unreliable data.

Germancar1

Well first of all guys, those surveys about how people feel about their cars doesn't have much to do with reliability. In short what JD Powers says about "APPEAL" has nothing to do with Consumer Reports.

Now that JDP has said that Mercedes' are reliable for the first 90 days for 2007 model year cars, we must wait to see what Consumer Reports says about these same vehicles next spring when their 2007 data is released. This data will be for the first year of ownership, not 90 days. We all know Mercedes is shot (but making progress) in the JDP Dependability survey, which goes back 3 years, in this case to 2004 model year cars.

That said, I can't see the E-Class doing an about face with Consumer Reports. The gut feeling I have is that people who live by consumer reports are pretty much clueless about a lot of things and really don't have a grasp on things concerning cars. This is why Mercedes has had to decontent over the years because people simply don't take the time to read an owners manual when they don't understand something and are quick to label something they don't get as a "problem". It really ruins it for the rest of us who don't mind learning about something new concerning a new car.

I do know one thing though, if CR says the S-Class is more of the same I'm done with even glancing at their results. The new S and CL have been reliable at the level it matters most, the dealer's service bay. Every dealer tech I've talked to says this is the first Mercedes in years that doesn't come back for anything. Now if Consumer Reports finds fault they're just the reaching to put it very, very lightly.

M

pmb600

Well said Germancar1.

Germancar1

Thank you!

M

MBTex

+1

KA8

I'm not the only one with issues. This just so happens to be our first NEW car and first BENZ. Some call us unlucky but doesn't matter. If MB did their homework and did more research and development they'd have better reliability. See most people buy new cars to ditch old junk and MB proves not all new cars good. Our 91 Acura feels more reliable than our new benz. And that is sad. what happen to old MB?!!

KA8

No this discussion is about MB in general. It's funny how people get offended if anyone posts negative comment about MB's. At least on other forums they don't deny negative attributes of their cars

MBTex

Nothing in there was offensive and nothing in my comment was a denial of your comments...just thought it might be better placed in the forum of the car you were actually talking about.

MBTex

There is also a General MB Discussion Forum here as well...

maryjcl

Well said!

CR is not that useful for car reviews, basically because they rely upon the owners' subjective perspective of what is "reliable." If you've ever received one of these surveys, you know what I am talking about.

RLE

<<CR is not that useful for car reviews, basically because they rely upon the owners' subjective perspective of what is "reliable." If you've ever received one of these surveys, you know what I am talking about.>>

When it comes to TV sets and home appliances, I trust Consumer Reports, particularly since nobody else is doing what they are doing. But, when it comes to cars, I know that they are going to recommend frumpy boring cars like Camrys, Subarus and so on because they are "practical and may be good value." So, I pay no attention. But, there have been some MB tests they have done in the distant past where they reported, "best sedan we've ever tested".

As to those who fill in the surveys, many of them are no-nothings who complain, for example, about brake dust as though that was MB's fault. Fact is, when non-asbestos brake pads became a government requirement decades ago, increased brake dust was a byproduct of that ruling. Furthermore, there is a certification requirement that mandates a certain maximum pressure the driver's foot must apply, and soft pads are the result. Anybody who has ever fitted harder pads to reduce dust knows that it takes more foot pressure to stop.

And JD Power does not seem to differentiate between electrical and electronic faults and those that know realize it's electronic problems that have bedeviled MB products from the Maybach down to the C230.

RLE

<<APEAL Award Summary: 2007 APEAL Awards: Porsche Tops Again; Honda Captures Most Awards

WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.: 28 June 2007 — Honda captures four model segment awards—more than any other vehicle nameplate this year—according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2007 Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout (APEAL) StudySM released today.
The study, now in its 12th year, measures owner delight with the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicles. APEAL is designed to complement the J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality StudySM (IQS), which focuses on problems experienced by owners during the first 90 days of ownership. APEAL measures how gratifying a new vehicle is to own and drive. Honda’s four segment-leading models are the Fit (in a tie), CR-V, Ridgeline and Odyssey. BMW and Mercedes-Benz receive three segment awards, while Ford, Nissan and Volkswagen each garner two awards. BMW models receiving awards include the 3 Series, 6 Series and X5, while Mercedes-Benz earns awards for the E-Class, S-Class and GL-Class. Ford models earning awards are the Mustang and Edge. Volkswagen receives awards for the Jetta and GTI, while Nissan earns awards for the Altima Sedan and Armada.>>

Sounds like the Emmys. Everybody goes home with something.

R

RandyG

First some background: For the 2007 edition of its New Car Preview, Consumer Reports surveyed its six million subscribers about what serious problems they had with the cars they own. Some 1.3 million responded and the results weren't good for Mercedes-Benz.


Yeah, all those fools...

Dema

I can't believe that Consumer report subscribers buy Mercedes. They should buy what this magazine recommends. Benz never has been even close to recommended makes.

BTW I just got few pictures with wood steering wheel on w204, it looks much richer.

RandyG

Chrysler not to blame for Mercedes’ drop in quality

Posted on Friday 21 September 2007


The quality of Mercedes-Benz has undoubtedly dropped over the years, a fact the carmaker has admitted to, and only recently has it been brought back to a level one would expect from a car wearing the Three Pointed Star. With Chrysler now cut loose, the emphasis on improving quality levels is of top priority at Mercedes says its sales and marketing Chief Dr Klaus Maier.

Many have suggested that a loss of focus and parts sharing with Chrysler following its acquisition back in the mid-1990s were the reasons behind the drop but, according to Maier, it was Mercedes’ own mistakes and quality assurance problems that lead to its decline. “It had nothing to do with Chrysler,” Maier revealed to GoAuto.

Not surprisingly, Mercedes will attempt to maintain many of its ties with Chrysler including the behind-the-scenes cost savings and streamlining that was gained through synergies after the merger.

Product and technology is not the only aspects where Mercedes wants to be a quality leader. Service quality is one area where Mercedes admits it’s lacking in, especially compared with Lexus, which is currently dominating the U.S. luxury market. Numerous reports about poor service at Mercedes dealerships around the world have caused the company to revamp its dealer training systems, however the jury is still out as to whether Mercedes will ever return to its former glory.

GDawgC220

A bit off topic but I read in an article yesterday that the w212 E-Class will be using the new 4.0 V6 from Chrysler, which will probably be trickled through the model lines...if it happens.

ScottyGams

i gotta say i am proud to be a member of this board!

You guys really are very good at taking criticism (for an online board anyway)

It is nice to see that when someone speaks up, and has an emblem in their sig other than a 3 pointed star, they don’t get zerg flamed for the hell of it.

On another note, have you guys seen the fifth gear review of the C class? (youtube: fifth gear mercedes c)

THEY LOVED THE INTERIOR, and recommended the car over the e90.

Personally I did the C Drive here in Jersey, and looking at the interior, I am a little disappointed considering this whole "because we promised you a mercedes benz" nonsense. How about you promise me a to be an irrefutable leader in the market segment you are known for = LUXARY! Imagine if BMW manufactured a car where people had the opportunity to discuss if the Honda Accord had better handling? It would be attacking what BMW is known for = Sportyness... to me, the existence of a 4 page thread on the interior of the C Class is proof enough of a failure by Mercedes Benz

In other news, I really don't care, oddly enough. You all, with the help of your passion of cars, have interested me in the discussion. To be honest however, by MB offering a GREAT guge cluster with information LCD, And an awsome multimedia package that runs circles around I-Drive, I don't think I will once look at the dash.

Nobody in this forum will ever start a thread and get comments back by saying what a car does well. I just remind you all to take a step back and measure the deficiencies against the PROficiencies. Thank you for reading. I'll get back to doing that now myself...