maryjcl

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but this comment is just not factually based.

This past weekend, I had the opportunity to judge a MB concours, and there were present two W201 190E 2.3 16 valves, as well as two W202 C43 AMGs. We also own a W203 C230. While the 190 16 valves and the c43s are all great cars, and we have been very pleased with ours as well, when you check out a car as closely as you do for concours judging, you can really get up close and personal, so to speak, with the quality of the interior materials and what not. Based on this experience, and having also seen up close (at the VPC) the new W204, I can tell you the quality of the 204 interior is at least as good, if not better than, the 201, 202, and 203 in terms of interior materials quality, fit, and finish. This is especially evident in areas such as the kick panels, under-dash trim, and things of that ilk.

I am doing the C drive this weekend, so I will have to suspend judgement about driving characteristics until that time, but in terms of fit, finish, and things of that ilk, the W204 appears to be, if not better than, the equal of its predecessors. Also, given the fact that Merc has really tried to clean up niggling electronic quality issues, I am sure it will also be better in this regard. W201s in particular, while great driving cars, were pretty poor in this w/r/t overall reliability, and even though each iteration of the C has clearly been better than the last in terms of reliability, people always seem to think the contrary. If you've been around these cars long enough, you know what I am talking about. And, if you don't believe me, find me one experienced Mercedes tech who will tell you that the oldest (and often presumed best) mini-Benz, the 190, was a reliable car. Unless they are track junkies, they can't tell you that with any credibility and they will not like them.

Finally, I am not intending to bash any particular model C. They were all great cars for their time. It's just that I think we all have a tendency to view the past with rose-colored glasses. Other than things like sheet metal thickness, where all carmakers have had to give in to various regulations relating to fuel economy and recyclability, new cars are undoubtedly better than their predecessors, with very few exceptions. Given we are talking about Mercedes Benz here, anyone who thinks the 203, 202, or 201 is better than the 204 is not dealing in reality.

As far as carryover engines, this comment shows, once again, that you don't know that Mercedes has often done this over the years for a variety of reasons. First, the new v-6 motors are all relatively new already, and are used throughout the Mercedes line. Second, to introduce new motors just for the C wouldn't make any sense as it would needlessly increase cost for little benefit, and would likely increase the incidence of problems associated with a new drivetrain. Manufacturers often change drivetrains and chassis on a staggered basis so that they aren't overwhelmed with the debugging that goes on with anything new. Other manufacturers, like BMW and Honda, do the same thing for similar reasons.

RandyG

So what you're saying is that the older models had REALLY cheap interiors, and they current one is just cheap...

pmb600

Thank you for this well thought out and well written post, you make some very good points. Are you in the MBCA? I ask because you mention touring the VPC, which I know was an MBCA event. I was unable to make the one in May, but was able to visit in August.

Only a few things I'd like to add to what you wrote:

The 204 certainly does feel better in quality than its predecessors; however, I think this feeling of "cheapness" comes not from a problem with quality of materials but rather the new design direction. The 204 feels more solid when closing the doors, operating the controls, etc but the interior design does leave you with a feeling that some of it isn't well placed or as sophisticated as previous models. Also the texture of the plastic is my main issue, it may feel more substantial than the previous models, but the grain on the plastic dash looks more "fake" to me than in my post-facelift 203 luxury sedan.

I agree completely with your comments on the carryover engine debate. Two years ago the Marketing Club at my college had the M-Class product managers from MBUSA come to speak (this was right after the introduction of the new 2006 M-Class). They talked about how one of their main goals is to keep something new about the car every year. If they made a completely new car, with completely new engines for 2008, they wouldn't have anything to introduce later on. We as consumers may not like it, but this is a necessary evil to keep the products fresh and drive sales in the increasingly competitive premium car market.

The C-Class product management team is coming to speak next Tuesday and I am especially excited to hear/discuss with them about the new C-Class and perhaps bring up a few concerns members have raised here on MBWorld.

ajscratch

That's good to hear. If you do get the opportunity to discuss the C-Class in depth with the MB reps, please mention the omission of Keyless Go and memory controls for the seats, mirrors etc. Thanks!

pmb600

Oh don't worry I planned on mentioning those things already plus the lack of 4Matic C350 and no luxury C350.

I will be looking through these threads again to see what else I have missed. I know there was one that specifically talked about all the things we can't get in the US.

MBTex

+1 on the 350 Lux....that would've been my choice.

LaicepsYdobon

+1 on the 350 Lux also (4matic). Now if you could just tell them to change the interior also...

pmb600

Oh one other thing I find cheap about the interior is the door lock pins. The ones in the back are so tiny they look like toys. I know they changed the door locks from the golf tee style for 2007 on the C-Class, but I hate them. I like the golf tee style much better.

pmb600

I'm still hopeful they will bring out a luxury C350 and C350 4Matic models in future years. Remember when they brought out the W220 for MY 2000. There was only S430 and S500 models. Then in 2001 they introduced the S55 AMG and the S600.

LaicepsYdobon

I think you and I are waiting for the Lux 350 the most on this board The lease is up on my current C-Class in June and I'll probably get another C-Class again. Now knowing my luck they will probably come out with the Lux 350 that fall approx. 2~3 months after I sign the lease for my new car. Wouldn't that be something ?

stealtheo

I can noty believe what I read on this thread.

The back and forth, back and forth. I buy what i like because I like it.
I dont care what anyone else thinks. I do my research and look, I buy.

There is pro's and cons in everthing. There is no perfect! You know how much you want to spend and you buy what you think is the best buy for the buck. In most cases, sometimes we just buy toys just because.

I have now owned 3 MB - 02 c230k coupe, 05 C320 SS, 08 C350

Enjoyed all 3 cars

Don't believe the hype - 2002 bought the C230k coupe and 2 weeks later bought a Hyundia Sante-Fe just traded the Santa-Fe in on a 08 and it was never in the shop in 5 years for anything other than oil change had 90k at trade.
The 02 coupe in shop 10-12 times first year and has had the same parts replaced 3 times in 5 years. Memory modules for the seats and mirrors.

So my point . . .Ther is good and bad in everthing. We now have had 3 MB and 3 Hyundia always bought within 2 wekks of each other. (My girls swears by Hyundia) You would be surprised at fit and finish and some of the option for the money. 38K = Keyless go, illuminated door sills, auto lights, auto wipers, real leather, park assist, auto dim and heated mirrors (all 3) hada, hada - again of all 3 of these - Hyundia's were never in shop in 5 years and approx 100k when we got rid of them.

So buy what you like. I like MB, She likes Hyundia.

I dive both, sometimes the MB sometime the Hyundia

I'm sure ever person on this thread all wear different shoes, sneakers, Yet nothing someone were tyo say here would change your ming on the shoes you have on!

I'm sure we could talk about something useful on these threads!

pmb600

I'm actually not waiting for a lux believe it or not, I want a Sport only because I like the AMG body styling. I will replace the front end with the lux grille and hood star once I get one. Fortunately I bought my car so I can just hold on to it until I'm happy with what they have out.

maryjcl

Yeah, that's it.

I would guess that if not chronologically, then emotionally, you are not older than 13.

The point I am trying to make is simply that when you see the older C class cars, those interiors also featured a lot of plastic, and some of it was pretty ill fitting by today's standards. But I think we tend to forget such things with the passage of time, and remember the good. I never owned a 190, but two family members did, and, like the other poster guessed, I am active with MBCA, and I can tell you for a fact that when the 201 and 202 were current models, the dealership techs hated them, especially the 201s, because of the incidence of problems. This was consistent with my relatives' experience too with the 190. The 203s, in comaprison, have issues, but the most common issues, module failures, do not relate to driveability.

The bigger point here relates to how the market has changed for Mercedes. Twenty or twenty-five years ago, there were few competitors to Mercedes, other than BMW and maybe Audi, and a Mercedes Benz could sell itself on "quality" based largely on its reputation, and very solid build relative to other cars. Even reliable Japanese cars felt like tin cans by comparison -- and bear that in mind -- there is a difference between build quality and reliability. That feeling of build quality, and how the cars drove relative to other lesser cars, was enough to sell the cars even though they were never that reliable across the board. Now, many lower cost Japanese cars can match, at least superficially, the fit and finish of a Mercedes Benz, and the driving characteristics. Never mind that most will rust and start to rattle and shake like tin cans in about 5 years, but to the new car buyer they look similar. So the issue of "reliability", which was never a strong suit for Mercedes or BMW, is now more closely focused upon than it was years ago. And for the first time, and it's a good thing, Mercedes is being forced to build more reliable cars because this is what competition and the market demands.

None of this is to make excuses for Mercedes. It is just a question of keeping perspective when making criticisms of the 204. The lack of engine choices, the lack of C350 luxury, the lack of a small diesel, the lack of a wagon, etc., etc., are all fair points. But when people start complaining about interior build quality relative to the prior Cs, it makes me think they haven't really had a lot of experience with those cars. And when people somehow indicate that a 201 or 202 C was a reliable car (as distinguished from well built), then I know absolutely that they are new to Mercedes Benz. The cars have typically been well built, but you really do need to love them to put up with some of the repair bills. This has always been one constant of ownership of any Mercedes. Just my .02.

maryjcl

Those sound like very fair points. I would communicate your concerns to the C Class product management team, as believe it or not they really do welcome the feedback. And, yes I am in MBCA -- if you have the opportunity to go to the VPC, you should -- and they too will listen to you and communicate back up the chain. Mercedes is intensely focused on quality right now. That's why the new C, for example, does not compete with the 335i on the basis of horsepower. BMW historically has had an edge in that category, but Mercedes was always viewed as the overall more solid and well designed car. Not sure if they can pull it off, but that's one of the reasons why they are not engaging in the horsepower wars -- they want to focus on restoring the traditional niche of the marque, that is building the best designed, best engineered, and best built cars in the world, and they will be reasonably reliable to boot.

MBfan21

I don't think the interior looks cheap. In fact, especially with the wood trim.. it looks quite nice. Far from cheap looking.

RandyG

Dear Maryjcl,

If that's just your $.02, I'd hate to read one of your more lengthy opinions.
Getting back to the appearance of the interior rather than a discussion of reliability...

I've owned (all purchased new) a: 1985 190E; 1990 300E; and a 2002 C240. The quality of the interior of those older models was indeed better than the 2008 C Class. I do agree with you regarding competition years ago - there wasn't much, and Mercedes probably wasn't feeling much pressure to reduce production costs. Years passed, competition increased, and MB has been forced to find ways to reduce production costs. The interior is one place they cut - and it shows.

Dema

What make you think that 204 is more reliable car than predecessors? Because people didn't start complaining after two months after purchase? Yes, it is a good sign, however nobody knows what will happen after 20K miles yet. Or your point that Mercedes finally took Asian model providing very reliable car with cheap interior, considering that reliability is more important than interior? Or Mercedes just target more Asian people based on demography of C sales, so trying to make a car more suitable for them?
What I completely agree that the current C is an attempt to survive in strong competition primary from Asian makers.

RandyG

She may want to do a bit more research outside of the MBCA for information about those "tin can" Asian cars that rust and deteriorate after 5 years.

JD Powers is a good place to start for both initial quality and long-term dependability statisical data. Mercedes isn't even close, in those regards, to Lexus.

maryjcl

Randy G:
I am glad to see a mature response. Sorry you don't like to read much, but I was trying to provide some context and basis for my view that the interior of the 204 is at least as good as previous C class interiors overall. And trust me, my views are not based even in part on anything from MBCA. You provided your opinion, and didn't back it up. I provided mine, and tried to provide some context for it. Sorry if you find that troubling, but facts always are.

As far as Japanese cars go, I agree that they are reliable. In fact I have owned several Hondas daily drivers as well. Even given very diligent attention, these cars looked tired and worn out after a little less than a decade. While the cost of maintaining them was certainly less than a comparable Benz, they also were pretty much ready to become soda cans after that time. As far as Lexus goes, again, their reliability in the surveys is quite good, no argument there. But how many early 1990s Lexuses (or is that Lexi) do you see on the road? They are reliable, but they simply don't have the same build quality as anything made by Merc or BMW. And if Mercedes are so horrible, why keep looking at them? Why not move on to one of the wonderful cars built by Lexus, Infiniti, etc.? My intent here is not to bash those makers, as I think they make good cars, but it constantly amazes me that people think a car that sells for $35-40k (i.e, the C class) should have an interior like a $60k E or similar car. Sure a Lexus has a rich interior -- but it should since outside of the SC and LS, which are big bucks (nothing is free after all) and the IS, they all share mechanicals with Toyotas. Easy to make the interior look good on a rebadged Camry that sells for $10k more than a Camry. Do I think the C interior is perfect? No. Do I think it is competitive overall, given the entire car and package? Definitely.

Dema:
I am basing my estimate on the fact that each iteration of the C has been more reliable than the past iteration, and the fact that Mercedes has spent a considerable amount of time and effort debugging the 204. This is why several features available on the 203 aren't available on the 204 -- if they can't get the reliability right, they now simply won't offer them. I am giving them some benefit of the doubt in the sense that since I don't think Mercedes (or any major manufacturer for that matter) is run by idiots, so if they consciously try to improve something, and make a big deal about improving it, then we should actually see some improvement. Moreover, if the 204 is a problematic car, won't that create a pretty big black eye for Mercedes given the recent publicity surrounding the cars? For these reasons, the incentives are for them to really push hard to get the quality of this car right. A good precedent in this regard is the work that has been done to greatly improve the W211 and W221.

Chi-Benz

MaryJ - Well said! Enjoyed reading every single post of yours and look forward to more. I think you nailed it right on the head about everything and I couldn't agree more. The C-Class will come to be almost the perfect entry level luxury sedan but it won't be for a few years yet...Lexus will never have that honor.

Peyton

MaryJ, Thank you for spending your time trying to talk to senseless people but don't. You make valid well-reasononed points to people who have way too much time to talk down an extremely well engineered car for no real reason but they are not happy with their lives or they did not get emotional support when they were younger, therefore having to be complete (and there's no other words for it...) dicks about the situation.

I don't read, nor comment on their statements

RLE

<<Oh one other thing I find cheap about the interior is the door lock pins. The ones in the back are so tiny they look like toys. I know they changed the door locks from the golf tee style for 2007 on the C-Class, but I hate them. I like the golf tee style much better.>>

It looks like your definition of "cheap" is a bit skewed. What exactly is cheap about changing the shape of those pins so that a looped wire used by a thief cannot get hold of them? I call it intelligent design.

Think, man.

pmb600

I will admit I had not thought of that as a benefit of these types of door pins. However, my comment stands. They look flimsy and yes cheap compared to the previous type. They could have put in a rectangular one like in the S-Class that would be a theft deterrent design also. This would have the added benefit of decreasing production costs as they would have less types of inventory to maintain.

I honestly don't think that the shape of the door pin in a major theft deterrent though. If somone wants to break into the car they can just as easily break the window, yes that will damage the car and they might not like it as much as popping up the door pin, but they can still do it. And Mercedes have pretty good theft detterent (I know nothing is foolproof) systems anyway. Even once they are in the car, it is not easy to get it started and moving.

I guess I should be more specific, it's the rear pins that really stuck out to me because they are smaller and strange looking compared to the front ones. I don't like the front ones that much either, but they are tolerable.

Don't get me started on those ugly rear head restraints that don't fold, those are unacceptable however you look at it.

This is not directed to anyone in particular but I really dislike how some have a problem with difference of opinion on this board. If you can articulate your points well and in a non-offensive manner then what is the problem with differnet thoughts? I don't think the interior of the new C is that great or visually an improvement over the 203. The car will most likely be much more reliable than the previous generations, but I am talking about design which is subjective. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I think that I've pointed out what I dislike about the car specifically rather than make blanket statements and this should be acceptable to all intelligent people.

Dema

I do not like to read too much either. So I read long posts briefly. I do not think that MB made interior of C class cheap intentionally to distinct it from S or E class. I visited MB dealership and got feeling of interior of S, SL, E, and SLK. I can admit that all these interiors look cheap and too plastic. So C is certainly matching in style more expensive models. I also surprised opinion that MB dropped certain luxury features because they are not reliable. MB was first company offered keyless go feature. Memory seats looks very simple things as well. Simply marketing guys decided, since keyless go was priced as $1000, nobody wanted this option in US for C, so let's drop it at all. However they forgot, that this feature is now offered on many cars with very low or no cost. Somebody also decided that C class is car for one driver only, so let's do not provide memory seats. Or another idea, since C class is small and US is a big country with big parking spaces, let's do not provide parking assist feature. Anyway I do not plan to buy C class, and for those who do, cheap interior or absence of some options isn't a big deal. So MB did all right.
I've seen today white C350, it is very handsome car, so certainly I suggest people to buy it regardless some opinions on interior or some missed options.

Leesi

It's good to hear that some Benz folks like the new C-class