kevink2

JB

As of today, the only tuning option seems to be the Juice Box, from Burgertuning:





This tune is not for max hp near redline, but big change in lower end torque, where most people drive. Burger was misleading when they said: "Gains are up to 20 hp to the wheels and 40 torque to the wheels from 2500 to 4500rpm. " They are correct about torque gain, but for hp, most are interested in change in max hp, not some useless increase in value in the high torque range. I've never seen hp from "a tune" rated like this. Per the dyno software printed numbers for "Max hp" on the graph, the gain is only 7 hp , up from 185 for a 4% gain in peak hp.

recorded hp & tq, at the wheels, oem -> tuned

HP 187 hp --> 194 hp

TQ 220 ft-lbs --> 260 ft-lbs

The difference between engine and wheel power for rwd is about 17%., so the expected dyno numbers would be @ENG/1.17 , so that gives 172 hp and 188 ft-lbs as expected starting points:

(201 oem @ eng) 17% loss -> 172 hp @ wheel

(229 oem @ eng) 17% loss -> 188 tq @ wheel

So as far as the oem listed ratings, you have more torque than advertised and a bit more Hp (unless the car tested was a 4MATIC).

I contacted JB, asking if they minimized retard when building boost at lower rpms. I had found that this is critical in tuning a turbo. They said they wanted to, but could not do it, so on the A-B dyno runs you can see they follow the same initial trace on the dyno chart. They basicly just raised the boost curve up to 4300 rpm, and richened the mix at wot, to be safe.

Not much info on the C250 turbo. At a minimum, just measuring the bore at the small (deep) end of the compressor inlet will allow ball park estimations, that can be compared with vw/audi oem turbos, and their power potential. And, knowing it's most likely a floating sleeve bearing turbine, you might feel some repsonse improvement by using a thinner oil off the 229.5 approved list, ie an XW-30 oil. I'd suggest Castrol 0W-30 approved oil.


burgertuning.com/mercedes_benz_c250_

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VividRacing

Great work so far guys, we are looking into getting more involved with this car also. Let me know what you guys are looking for!

MBfinatic

Someone should swap this manny into there C250! I wonder why they only offer the SLK model with a manual. I dont think that is the model people would choose to have the manual.
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail...nal&listType=1

tdot_ollie

from my turbo experience there's really only a couple things you need to do to start making some power. You can run everything off of piggy back systems until you really start making some huge jam. I made 586hp/612tq on a 4 cyl turbo with "bolt ons" and a good tune with a piggy back module. I think this is what you would need to make good power...

1) 3" Turbo back, no cat with an o2 eliminator resistor in line. Even better would be a good EGT or AFR wide band kit


2) a high flow intake (CAI is bull**** on a turbo car its all about volume. "cool air" is a mute point when it's going through a blazing hot turbo anyways

3) some kind of boost controller. Preferably something staged and elecctronic like an AVC-R or HKS or Greddy etc


4) upgrade to an external BOV/DV unit coupled with a diverter valve / surge valve block off plate or vacuum cap.


5) some kind of fuel controller (i've run an Apex'i and HKS before with good results. Both are piggy back units that index off of TPS and run 500 rpm incriment fuel tables)

Now if you wanna start making bigger power...

6) dual ball bearing GT series turbo like a .35 or .40 depending on where you want the power band. Placed ideally on an equal length manifold. If there is no space then a log style would suffice


7) a real external waste gate, like a Tial or Turbosmart etc

8) bigger injectors, something like a 750cc

9) hard piping and a FMIC with a good size core like those from Spearco that has tapered end tanks


10) water meth injection and some solid motor mounts...

AND GETTING SOMEONE THAT KNOWS HOW TO TUNE ON A DYNO

Staff@WORLD

We will have a few parts available for this car at SEMA.

We will have a catless down pipe, a mid pipe and a rear section exhaust done by then. We will also have a front mount intercooler, and we will shortly have a hard pipe kit. We are also going to have a blow off valve in the near future (less than 2 weeks). We are working on an ECU flash that will be available very soon.

Also, we have decided that we will have a dual exhaust kit available for this car and we will probably have that available to purchase right after January 1st, 2013. We will also have many carbon fiber parts for sale from a few different companies.

Knightmare69

Just to clarify, so your company has decided not to do the single exhaust as planned originally and go straight to duals? Or will you be offering 2 versions?

Staff@WORLD

We will offer both versions.

Knightmare69

Awesome.

190Benz

I went to a Saab tuner in the Netherlands (i'm from Belgium) on saterday to talk about what work we could do on my C250 cgi coupe.

After talking we agreed on a new intercooler, oilcooler, downpipe with racecat, replace stock turbowheel and cnc out the exhaust part of the turbo OR go for a A45 amg turbo, upgrade injectors or place A45 amg injectors, oilcatchcan and custom ecu tune.

If you guys wanna follow the proces, i will be updating a thread on the C204 section of the forum. I don't have a thread yet but i will make one as soon as the work starts.

MBfinatic

Cant wait to see this!

Knightmare69

Alot of what you and your tuner discussed are pretty basic in making more power from a turbo car. However, being that there is currently no vendors that actually make these (affordable anyways) you have to consider the costs of your project and weigh them against the gains. I do look forward to your thread and especially if you go with plan b, what makes you think that the parts mentioned in that plan will work or will it be more custom fitting like it sounds in plan a?


Please learn to make your own thread.

190Benz

I know this is basic stuff for tuning a turbo 4 banger. On all my previous cars I did the tuning myself. But as this car is pretty new I want some expert help as I don't have room for errors because i can't find many spare parts at a scrapyard. When i'm done i will see if i am happy with the basic tuning or if I want to tune the internals of the engine.

I am a sales manager in a car parts store, so i know that the price for parts and work that they put on the invoice are reasenable prices for the work they are doing and the parts they are using.

I have no idea if the parts will work. I'm guessing the injectors will fit but the turbo... No idea because the engine of the A45 AMG is laying sideways. For the rest it would be the same engine. The tuner is and old classmate of the head of import for Mercedes and AMG. So called him saterday, but he was at home and couldn't log into the parts catalog for prices or partsnumbers.

I am also looking forward to it Because i don't really know of someone who has done this kind of work on a 250cgi and there are limited to no performance parts for that engine. I am hoping for +300hp. It still has to be a dialy driver.

I know I also could have bought a 350 of a 63 AMG. But in Belgium the price for petrol, tax, insurance and the car itself is higher then US prices. And I also like to have something other people don't have. That's why i customize all my cars.

Knightmare69

Well if it works out then maybe you could create put together some sort of performance package that we could order. It won't be an easy road as you'll have to pull off your stock turbo and compare it to the turbo you want to use and see what differences there are, starting with mounting points.

It's quite annoying to be honest that it's so hard to find information about the turbo's used on the CGi models. Up to now the community still can't confirm if there's a difference between the turbo's used on the C250 and my C200 simply because we can't find any info. We know the part numbers are different but that's speculating because it's 2 different trim level of cars.

My biggest concern is the tranny aside from the tuning that is. I don't know how much power it can hold and I don't want to find out first hand being that it's my wifes daily driver.

Please don't misunderstand, I for one am more than versed in customizing having gone through Honda's BMW's and most recently a stage 2 WRX. Could you buy a more powerful car? Yea probably but given Europe and Asia's taxing on engine sizing and petrol it's really only for the wealthy. Everyday Joes like us do with what we can.

190Benz

I always over research before I start working on my cars. I have a suplier of turbos for the shop I work in. So dimensions and pictures of the exhaust flange isn't that hard to get.

In Belgium we didn't have the C200, only the C180 and C250. But the turbo from the C180 and C250 aren't the same. Once the C200 is released here i can check the OEM partnumbers for you if you like.

I know that Mercedes transmissions and axles are quite strong. They use the transmission in the C350 also.

Yeah, i did some calculations on the petrol prices. I pay €1.735 per liter shell vpower 98. What calculates to $6.57 per gallon...

If it doesn't take to much fabrication or modifications to the C204 chassis or oem parts, i will look into putting together performance packages. IF the price is reasonable.

kevink2

Just a few comments:

The A45 AMG is good for 370 hp stock on a 2L engine. I'm sure the block is beefy, with HD pistons, rods, and crankshaft. I think the engine is transverse, bolted up to a new trans with all helical gears, and no bevel gears for a 90 deg torque change. It may be a mistake to put that big a turbo on the US 1.8L engine. US owners, at a minimum, should at least measure the bore of the compressor inlet flange, as I think this is listed in the borg warner turbos used in the ATP kits for the 1.8L VW's and Audi's.

http://www.atpturbo.com/

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Jon@BMS

We have two C250s at the office and we've spent many an hour on the dyno with this thing testing various tuning combinations using the OEM turbo with an upgraded wastegate and we've just not been able to make much more than 200rw with it on pump gas. It's quite disappointing. Perhaps an offroad downpipe will open it up more. Since boost is essentially maxed out above 5000rpm from the factory even with wastegate improvements we've shifted to playing around with more aggressive timing and AFR curves. Some gains but they are minor.

I think the C250 is a terrific spirited daily driver, and our Stage1 tune and intake wakes the low end up in a way that makes the car much more enjoyable. But a tuner car it is not. At least not with the factory turbo in place.

MBfinatic

What is the C250 boost rating stock?

Jon@BMS

It runs around 16-17psi down low tapering down to around 10-11 at redline.

MBfinatic

Hm thats interesting. I thought it would have been lower. Thank you for the info.

Amin Skaf

Ecutuning group seems to have made a tune adding 50hp....I did see World's updated site with their c250 tune....their starting price is $2,900....anyone had any luck finding a solid tune (undetectable by dealer) for under $1k?

Jon@BMS

Yeah unless there is a dynojet dyno showing OEM and tuned curves on the same octane fuel I simply won't believe it. We've spent many hours on the dyno with this thing.

Amin Skaf

Just checked their site - nope no dyno chart for the C250.

Amin Skaf

Terry, do you believe 250 owners then might be SoL with regards to major gains beyond a stage 1 ecu tune without needing to do major engine work?

Knightmare69

Terry already reported that even with upgraded wastegate they couldn't get that much more power out of the car. The car is a good spirited driver but powerhouse it won't be.

Jon@BMS

Yes just not much more potential here, unfortunately.