Lets talk about tunning and the C250
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Joined: Sep 2007
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On the Stage2 being unable to add more boost we experimented with higher advance and leaner AFR targets, but dyno gains were also minimal.
The platform seems generally very limited at least at this point in time. We'll continue looking at things but no immediate plans to offer anything other than the Stage1 + intake we currently offer for it.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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190 evoII replica
For the people who want to follow the performance upgrades on my C 250 cgi coupe, you can follow me here.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-c...ld-thread.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-c...ld-thread.html
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18
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From: Sacramento
ML 320 2000
Hello,
New here and just picked up a c250 coupe on a killer deal.
Seems the most apparent limitations are an 1) undersized turbo, 2)the Direct Injection style system, and 3) being able to program the ECU.
Some thoughts:
As to the turbo it should be relatively easy to have its compressor or turbine worked for more capacaty and more efficient flow. If not just a bigger turbo.
GDI is a new puzzle and from my limited reading seems to be more of a challange to increase its flow than normal port injection system. At some point the more HP we ask of it the lower the rpm limit will be unless it can be worked around with larger GDI injectors (probably hard to source), a higher pressure fuel pump (again probably difficult to source), or additional piggy back injectors (even fuel distribution might be a challenge). I guess it is possable MB left us some head room here but from looking at what has been done with other GDI MB's there probably only about 15% more fuel potental.
As to the ECU if someone can not crack it, it might be worth looking at setting up a Unichip piggy back system. This worked well for the newer MiniCooper Turbo's. I first saw this used on a Porsche 993 twin turbo. It is very programable and adaptable around the stock ECU. Added function is possable including driving addational injectors.
Of course all the normal turbo tuning tricks apply.
New here and just picked up a c250 coupe on a killer deal.
Seems the most apparent limitations are an 1) undersized turbo, 2)the Direct Injection style system, and 3) being able to program the ECU.
Some thoughts:
As to the turbo it should be relatively easy to have its compressor or turbine worked for more capacaty and more efficient flow. If not just a bigger turbo.
GDI is a new puzzle and from my limited reading seems to be more of a challange to increase its flow than normal port injection system. At some point the more HP we ask of it the lower the rpm limit will be unless it can be worked around with larger GDI injectors (probably hard to source), a higher pressure fuel pump (again probably difficult to source), or additional piggy back injectors (even fuel distribution might be a challenge). I guess it is possable MB left us some head room here but from looking at what has been done with other GDI MB's there probably only about 15% more fuel potental.
As to the ECU if someone can not crack it, it might be worth looking at setting up a Unichip piggy back system. This worked well for the newer MiniCooper Turbo's. I first saw this used on a Porsche 993 twin turbo. It is very programable and adaptable around the stock ECU. Added function is possable including driving addational injectors.
Of course all the normal turbo tuning tricks apply.
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2009
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190 evoII replica
I have to agree with you 00ML Keith. Turbo, injectors and ecu are the first points that need to be adressed on tuning our cars. I will be delivering my ecu at a company that will try to crack it next month.
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18
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From: Sacramento
ML 320 2000
I hope you can get the code handled.
If that does not work, check out the Unichip piggy back system. It is really a solid solution if needed.
I think the most significant issue is increasing fuel substantially even if we have control over the ECU.
Direct-Injection is a different animal and just does not seem to have the head room for much of an increase. I think it can only take on fuel for about a couple of hundred degrees of crank rotation. Compared to Port-Injection where it can fill the intake tract with fuel for up to 720 deg of rotation. There just is not the aftermarket for DI injectors or higher pressure fuel pumps.
Some of the other GDI performance cars have both DI and PI which would be much better for getting more fuel as we can swap the port injectors.
This is probably the largest issue to overcome on these cars if we want to make real HP.
But I am not an expert on this.
If that does not work, check out the Unichip piggy back system. It is really a solid solution if needed.
I think the most significant issue is increasing fuel substantially even if we have control over the ECU.
Direct-Injection is a different animal and just does not seem to have the head room for much of an increase. I think it can only take on fuel for about a couple of hundred degrees of crank rotation. Compared to Port-Injection where it can fill the intake tract with fuel for up to 720 deg of rotation. There just is not the aftermarket for DI injectors or higher pressure fuel pumps.
Some of the other GDI performance cars have both DI and PI which would be much better for getting more fuel as we can swap the port injectors.
This is probably the largest issue to overcome on these cars if we want to make real HP.
But I am not an expert on this.
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Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento
ML 320 2000
190,
Read some of you posts and you sound like you are on a great track! Also looked up the A45 you note and found the following quote:
350 hp and 332 lb-ft of torque. Code-named M133, the AMG engine is a modified version of the unit fitted to the A250 Sport, but apart from the 1991-cc displacement and the cylinder block, almost every part is new. There are now two radiators instead of one, the intercooler and the variable-vane turbocharger are larger, and the reengineered exhaust boasts four chrome tips as well as an optional full-volume mode. Although the numbers aren't yet final, the AMG car is expected to accelerate to 62 mph in 4.6 seconds, and the electronically limited top speed of 155 mph can be stretched to 175 mph with an optional performance package.
Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...#ixzz2DinnWXXw
Read some of you posts and you sound like you are on a great track! Also looked up the A45 you note and found the following quote:
350 hp and 332 lb-ft of torque. Code-named M133, the AMG engine is a modified version of the unit fitted to the A250 Sport, but apart from the 1991-cc displacement and the cylinder block, almost every part is new. There are now two radiators instead of one, the intercooler and the variable-vane turbocharger are larger, and the reengineered exhaust boasts four chrome tips as well as an optional full-volume mode. Although the numbers aren't yet final, the AMG car is expected to accelerate to 62 mph in 4.6 seconds, and the electronically limited top speed of 155 mph can be stretched to 175 mph with an optional performance package.
Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...#ixzz2DinnWXXw
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,108
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From: Dix Hills, New York
2012 C250 Coupe
I have the JB+ tune cranked to 100%, the BMS K&N drop in intake, quad exhaust work done and I have achieved a 0-60 of 5.8 seconds (best) in my 2012 C250 coupe. These cars definitely are NOT "slow". They just aren't VERY fast. It is certainly possible to get the C250 at the performance level of the C350 with minimal modification and not a ton of cash. Terry said that he doesn't really plan on coming out with any other tunes since the bottleneck is indeed the small turbo.
He was looking at making a replacement for the factory wastegate as he said it lets all of the pressure out and is pretty wasteful. I'm not too familiar with the technical terms, this is my first FI vehicle, but it definitely has opened my eyes to the 4-cylinder alternatives.
EDIT: After reading above it seems he has stopped trying to make an aftermakert wastegate. It seems we will indeed have to wait for the A45 parts to become available, or until the CLA 45 ///AMG is released here in the U.S. to get some quality parts.
He was looking at making a replacement for the factory wastegate as he said it lets all of the pressure out and is pretty wasteful. I'm not too familiar with the technical terms, this is my first FI vehicle, but it definitely has opened my eyes to the 4-cylinder alternatives.
EDIT: After reading above it seems he has stopped trying to make an aftermakert wastegate. It seems we will indeed have to wait for the A45 parts to become available, or until the CLA 45 ///AMG is released here in the U.S. to get some quality parts.
Last edited by jctevere; Nov 30, 2012 at 04:21 PM.
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18
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From: Sacramento
ML 320 2000
I guess I do not get the waste gate issue.
It sounds like the pressure increase in the exhaust manifold before the turbo is getting very high relitive to boost.
To get boost so early they may have put a very small and restrictive hot side on the turbo.
If so forcing the WG may not be a good idea.
It would be a good (and basic) idea for someone to put a tap off the exhaust manifold before the turbo hot side and a tap after the turbo hot side but before the cat to see what kind of pressures are being achieved at different boost levels.
We might be missing something very basic here.
If pressure is high before the turbo but not after we need a bigger hot side. If it is more so high after the turbo we need a sport cat and exhaust.
I could be wrong.
It sounds like the pressure increase in the exhaust manifold before the turbo is getting very high relitive to boost.
To get boost so early they may have put a very small and restrictive hot side on the turbo.
If so forcing the WG may not be a good idea.
It would be a good (and basic) idea for someone to put a tap off the exhaust manifold before the turbo hot side and a tap after the turbo hot side but before the cat to see what kind of pressures are being achieved at different boost levels.
We might be missing something very basic here.
If pressure is high before the turbo but not after we need a bigger hot side. If it is more so high after the turbo we need a sport cat and exhaust.
I could be wrong.
Last edited by 00ML Keith; Dec 19, 2012 at 08:11 PM.
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18
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From: Sacramento
ML 320 2000
Sorry for all the posts but I get excited.
Here is a quote of what I was thinking about:
" Boost And Drive Pressures
... another important aspect of turbocharging is drive pressure. Drive pressure is the amount of force (in pounds per square inch) that is being used to spin the turbocharger. A drive-to-boost pressure ratio of 1:1 is ideal, although in reality, drive pressure is usually a bit higher than boost pressure. If a situation occurs where drive pressure far exceeds boost pressure (say, 35 psi boost, 65 psi drive pressure) then you might be looking at trouble..."
Here is a quote of what I was thinking about:
" Boost And Drive Pressures
... another important aspect of turbocharging is drive pressure. Drive pressure is the amount of force (in pounds per square inch) that is being used to spin the turbocharger. A drive-to-boost pressure ratio of 1:1 is ideal, although in reality, drive pressure is usually a bit higher than boost pressure. If a situation occurs where drive pressure far exceeds boost pressure (say, 35 psi boost, 65 psi drive pressure) then you might be looking at trouble..."
Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 83
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From: Florida, USA
2012 e350, a BMW, an Audi, a Camaro
The current tuning potential of the C250 is very limited IMO. You see almost no one post 1/4 mile times because the truth of the matter is that even with exhaust, intake, and JB+ the 1/4 mile times are not a heck of a lot better than stock and they are not near the C350. Until we can get a turbo and tuning solution this is not going to be an earlier MY audi A4 that responded incredible to chipping and cheap turbo upgrades. I'm a little disappointed and probably going to just go with a C350 now.
cheers! Mike
cheers! Mike
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18
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From: Sacramento
ML 320 2000
I do wish the transmission responded faster to up and down shift input. It would be a lot more fun.
I suspect there is a lot of potental left in this little motor but it is probably going to take a sport turbo /cat / intercooler, plus injectors & higher pressure direct injection pump.
I suspect there is a lot of potental left in this little motor but it is probably going to take a sport turbo /cat / intercooler, plus injectors & higher pressure direct injection pump.
Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
2012 C204
Let's talk more about the C250 and tuning :P. It appears that some have decided to jump on the CLA 250 bandwagon, and justifiably so.
I guess my search around the net has shown several tunes, with only one or two having been utilized by board members:
*BMS JB+
*Carlsson
*Brabus PowerXtra
*Power-bit
*Kleeman
*Tuning-Box
etc.....
With the exception of Terry, whose presence is extremely appreciated and felt across the board, no other manufacturer has listed any dyno figures for their product. There are variations in many of these products as well. RADO is developing some parts for our cars, but there is no price/performance numbers regarding the ECU tune at this time.
Do any of you have experiences with a 250 tunes/piggybacks outside of JB+? Is anyone familiar with a complete ECU reflash of the 250? I would love to see this thread continue. We probably have a good 1.5 model years (at most) before W205/C205 comes out and our engines become a stop-gap afterthought.
I guess my search around the net has shown several tunes, with only one or two having been utilized by board members:
*BMS JB+
*Carlsson
*Brabus PowerXtra
*Power-bit
*Kleeman
*Tuning-Box
etc.....
With the exception of Terry, whose presence is extremely appreciated and felt across the board, no other manufacturer has listed any dyno figures for their product. There are variations in many of these products as well. RADO is developing some parts for our cars, but there is no price/performance numbers regarding the ECU tune at this time.
Do any of you have experiences with a 250 tunes/piggybacks outside of JB+? Is anyone familiar with a complete ECU reflash of the 250? I would love to see this thread continue. We probably have a good 1.5 model years (at most) before W205/C205 comes out and our engines become a stop-gap afterthought.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 16
From: Hong Kong
2010 C200 CGI
Do any of you have experiences with a 250 tunes/piggybacks outside of JB+? Is anyone familiar with a complete ECU reflash of the 250? I would love to see this thread continue. We probably have a good 1.5 model years (at most) before W205/C205 comes out and our engines become a stop-gap afterthought.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 26
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From: Toronto Ontario
c300 sport rwd DHP
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 86
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2012 C204
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 86
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2012 C204
This is OETuning's http://oetuning.com/mercedes-benz-c2...urbo-1-8.html? It looks like you can purchase it now. I wonder if they have had dyno runs for this one as well.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 16
From: Hong Kong
2010 C200 CGI
Amin, the tuning box did make an improvement but the car will never be a contender. For me, it's not a real tuning solution as I'm used to full flash tunes from my Subaru days. As for oe tuning, they might list for the 250, I have a c200 so I can't use it.
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Joined: Jul 2014
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2012 C250
Hey guys, I have a C250 well and come from a platform of modded V8s, but would love to do some work on these cars. Just have an intake and have been waiting for more experience with tune options. Bump for any updates or shares
