nvmichael

I've always polished my cars, Meguiar's #7 and #26. With Mercedes hard clearcoat (ceramic particles) I'm thinking its not going to do any good.
Polishes usually feed the paint. This isn't going to touch the paint.
My other cars were dark colors with clearcoat. Always looked great.
Am I wasting my time. I'd rather just wax (maybe I'm feeling lazy).
What do you think? Skip the polish?
Thanks

Glyn M Ruck

I've discussed this before. The paint companies will tell you that the worst thing you can do is abrade the skin of the clearcoat with anything that has even the slightest amount of compound in it. I'm not about to start another argument here with the detailing industry.

What I do is have a non abrasive long term polymer sealant applied new. Then wash with compatible washing liquid. When I sold my last Benz after 8 years the paint was as new & water still pebbled on it. Not a single micro scratch. I've done the same with the CLK & it's paintwork is perfect.

MBRedux

This ^!

Took the words right out of my mouth! Don't touch it with polish, unless of course you need to repair the surface to remove an annoying scratch or two. Even then, you may wish to use an approved polish for nano-hard clear coats. We use a product called Ultrafina by 3M. It does require a special machine applicator designed specifically for it. Keep in mind, this is for "repair" purposes ONLY. As Glyn rightfully said, once you "cut" into the surface of a hard Nano-clear, it's never the same. Clay bar first to remove embedded dirt rather than polish, followed by a layer of your favorite (non-cleaner) wax.

Glyn M Ruck

I have my cars done with Auto Armor in SA.

nvmichael

Thanks for the replys. Meguiar's #7 is a pure polish, no abrasives.
I'm going to skip the polish. I'll wash 40 times a year and wax once or twice.
Paint looks good now but latter on would clay help if it gets any embedded dirt?
Thanks

Glyn M Ruck

Clay bar is unknown outside the US so you had better ask locals about that. I don't even know it's constituents.

Things don't really become embedded in ceramiclear. The Auto Armor that I use keeps the surface swirl free & perfect & is impervious to normal industrial fall out, bird crap, tar, tree sap etc. etc. They just wash right off.

Auto Armor also requires machine application so MBRedux & I seem on the same wavelength.

LandSeaAir

I'm no expert but I can't see any reason why clay bar would do any damage, all your doing is running the clay over the paint and as long as you spray on enough lubricant it feels as smooth and harmless to the paint as possible. It also looks very good once it's done, makes the paint look like glass and you can see all the brown/black residue in the clay.

What's the recommendation for 4 year old clear coat that has it's fair share of micro swirls? Just wash and wax and live with it? I wish I owned the car since new I would of bought the Auto Armor, that sounds awesome!

I put a bit of research into polishing Mercedes ceramic clearcoats and if I did want to polish my car it seems Menzerna makes polish designed for the ceramic clearcoats. I know it is still cutting into the clearcoat which Glyn and MBRedux recommended against, but they claim "Mercedes plants" use it on new paints so I figured it was worth posting:

"This fine abrasive polish removes imperfections in the new, hard, ceramic clear coat paints. This is part of the same family of polishes used in Mercedes plants in Germany and select auto plants and repair shops in the U.S. to remove swirls and overspray from brand new paint finishes."

http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-cer...nish-kit-.html

As part of the kit below they're also selling a Polymer sealant, no way its the same thing as the real Auto Armor?

acr2001

In my experience, clay bar can be damaging if not used very carefully. You've got to make sure its a fresh CLEAN clay bar. Make sure the paint is as clean as possible before applying it.

DO NOT allow the clay bar to touch any chrome parts! I learned this the hard way with my W203 - left terrible webbing on one of the chrome parts.

Even with the hard ceramic clear coat, I notice that it feels very "gritty" after a year, even after washing / waxing and only the clay bar or a harsh polish (bad idea as stated) seems to bring it back to feeling like glass.

MBRedux

Using a Clay bar w/lube (detailer speed-shine spray) is an art. You either have it, or you don't. First, the paint must be thoroughly washed and dried, (usually blown off with high pressure air using a new, clean powerful leaf blower. This prevents any and all water spots & marks and swirls that are created by the chamois/terri drying cloth. Always work indoors, on cool paint. Never outdoors where wind could blow sand and grit onto your washed car, or in the sun. Never when the paint is either hot/warm to the touch.

Check the clay bar. If the color is dirty, gritty, or dried, discard it and buy another. Spray a few sprits of speed shine lubricant into the clay-bar container. (Do not use the entire bar. Instead break-off about 1/3 of the bar, kneading it well with your fingers to help soften it up and mix in the lubricant until it makes a 3"-4" thin disc.)

Working one panel at a time, spray a little lube onto the paint, (usually working diagonally from an upper corner to a lower corner), gently start using the clay disc pad in a LARGE figure 8 pattern across the paint. The artfulness comes in here and is dependent on the sensitivity you have in your fingertips. Apply just enough pressure to help the clay pick up and remove all embedded dirt and debris, (especially if you live in an industrious area or near a rail yard). Add lubricant as needed until the entire panel is done. Buff lightly using your best soft microfiber until the quick-shine lubricant evaporates. Feel the paint! It should look and feel like a new born's ***! Now go onto the next panel until finished.

Check the clay disc after every 1/2 panel. If it's real dirty, then either your paint is heavily damaged and contaminated or it wan't washed properly. Dirt and other debris contamination will simply be pulled off the paint. Dirt accumulation on the clay is normal and means the process is working properly. So keep folding and kneading the clay with more lube if needed to keep the cleanest clay surface always on the panel you are working on. NEVER ATTEMPT WORKING A PANEL WITH A VERY DIRTY CLAY PIECE! If the disc becomes unusable, discard it and cut off another new 1/3 section from the bar and continue working. Once the disc is real dirty and kneading doesn't help anymore, throw it away or buy more if needed. If you divide the bar into thirds, each section should yield approx. 5-8 uses depending on your paint's condition. That's approx. 15-24 complete cleaning uses per container. Otherwise a dirty clay-bar will damage your paint, defeating its purpose!

Clay Bar: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Speed-Shine Lubricant:



Video Link:

RLE

Yes, we have discussed this before. What I'm wondering is whether you have personally with your own hands cleaned, polished and sealed your paint or not?

From what you have posted it looks like you haven't. If possible, could you provide a manufacturer's source I could read about never polishing nano-particle clear coat?


Those of us who have dark color paint have certainly seen the everyday fallout of schmutz from the sky that slowly diminishes the gloss and know that nothing will prevent it.

Coincidentally, last week I started preparing my Barolo Red C300 for the annual MBCA Car Show which usually draws 80-90 cars.

I do it in sections these days and so began by claying the hood and the trunk lid (I don't use boot and bonnet) using liberal applications of Speed Shine (I buy it by the gallon) to prevent the clay from sticking either to the paint or my hand.

Claying the hood takes about five minutes including wiping it dry. Claying the rear lid takes longer since I remove the license plate and it's mounting plate for better access to the entire surface. Just claying which removed all the surface crap improved the gloss and left a smooth surface ready to polish. I then fitted an orange pad to my Porter-Cable 7424 random orbital buffer, laid a line of Menzerna nanopolish across it and proceeded to buff the hood using moderate pressure. After going over the entire surface 2-3 times, I removed the orange pad, substituting a white one over which I draped one of my 12X12" microfiber cloths which I use to dry and buff off the remaining polish. I follow up by hand with a clean microfiber cloth for the final cleanup.

Next, I spray the entire hood with Speed Shine again and wipe that all off with another clean microfiber cloth which removes every last trace of the polish and leaves a gleaming perfectly smooth surface, ready for the final step.

The last step is to apply paint sealer, in my case Menzerna FMJ, with a small folded section of toweling. When it has nearly dried I polish it off by hand with yet another microfiber cloth. An entire panel can be covered since it doesn't leave streaks like wax does if left to dry.

The first time I used the sealer (in 2008) I waxed over it but don't do that anymore since the sealer lasts longer and is still shedding water nine months later. Not as much as it did when applied, but long enough to convince me that sealer is enough and is a lot less work.

As time goes on the clear coat had become more and more glossy and far shinier than when it was new and there certainly is no evidence of any surface deterioration because of my procedures.

Before I began any of this, I cleaned the engine compartment including the hood pad at the coin-op car wash and it is dustfree and spotless. Won't last, of course.

J__

paint sealant + carnuba wax for detailing. Only polish if you need to remove a scuff or scratch. Just remember, everytime you polish, you're literally removing a thin laying of clearcoat (thinning the clearcoat to the lowest point of a scratch) thats why the scratch seem to disappear. So if you polish too much, eventually you'll take off the entire clearcoat

Glyn M Ruck

Just go & talk to the technical guys at Spies Hecker, Glasurit or PPG.

mvp2765

Can anyone explain the hard clear coat (ceramic) for MB's paint? Is it not easily buffable?

MBRedux

In the simplest way, think of early (pre 2005) clear-coats as a soft plastic coating over the color base coat. Easy to scratch yes, but more malleable due to this property and therefore easier to polish out any scratches and small imperfections. (dust, small sags etc) And since the surface was soft and malleable, it would gloss-up better after repairs from machine buffing.

Now think of Nano-Particle-Ceramaic clear-coats as being almost as hard as glass. Try sanding a new piece of clean glass with 1600 wet/dry sandpaper. It takes greater effort because the surface is much harder than soft plastic, but once you do cut into it, it gets easier to sand. However, try polishing out these fine scratches on the glass until they're all gone! Almost impossible! The glass is much less malleable.

The same with these new super hard clear-coats. They are much less malleable and harder to deal with once scratched. Yes they are harder to scratch, yet once scratched, (even with small spider scratches from daily use) they are much harder to buff-out (if not impossible) to the same high gloss as when it left the factory. And these super hard clear-coats will show every little surface scratch and imperfection if roughly handled, (darker colors are worse). *Cleaner-waxes* can be very damaging to these new clear coats, which can be seen under proper lighting conditions.(Using a paint-light or under Mercury Vapor lights in a shopping mall parking lot for instance) Therefore, the least you touch it, the better.

The paint jobs on modern production cars are completely virgin. They are not tweaked, handled or buffed in any way at the factory for this reason.

mvp2765

Thanks MBRedux. I could see myself sitting there for hours trying to buff out a single scratch with a DA. Lol.

2012c350

its

Isn't it nice living in that glass house?

RLE

You are absolutely right. Now while you are in the mood, why don't you go after the "break" & "brake' people?

RLE

Here's a reprint of an older post (you know who you are) followed by a link below it.

Mercedes-Benz has announced an innovative nano-particle clearcoat which offers significantly greater scratch resistance and improved gloss. After four years of development work, an innovative new clear lacquer was set to go into series production at Mercedes- Benz at the end of 2003. Ground-breaking nano-technology ensures that the new product is substantially more scratch-resistant than conventional paint. The E, S, CL, SL and SLK, G, GL Class model series are the first cars in the world to be available with this new paint system, whilst customers of other Mercedes models can look forward to the increased scratch resistance of nano-paintwork from spring 2004. This new technology represents the Stuttgart-based car maker's latest significant contribution towards considerably enhancing the already exemplary long-term quality and value retention of its passenger cars. The newly developed clear lacquer, which contains microscopically small ceramic particles, hardens in the paintshop oven, forming an extensively cross- linked network. The paint is thus more effectively protected against scratches caused by mechanical car-washes, for example. Mercedes state that the nano-particles provide a three-fold improvement in the scratch resistance of the paintwork and ensure visibly enhanced gloss over an extended period of time. Following extreme tests in a laboratory car-wash, Mercedes engineers noted an around 40-percent improvement in paint gloss compared to conventional clear lacquers. Mercedes-Benz carried out extensive testing on the nano-particle clearcoat both in the laboratory and under everyday conditions. Even after several years of use, the more than 150 test cars involved in the long-term testing programme displayed significantly greater scratch resistance and enhanced paint gloss compared to vehicles with conventional paintwork.
Microscopically small ceramic particles provide a layer of protection. Remarkable advances in the area of nano-technology have allowed tiny ceramic particles - each less than a millionth of a millimetre in size - to be integrated into the molecular structure of the binding agent. These particles float around freely at first in the liquid clearcoat, before cross-linking as the drying process takes effect. The particles link in with one another in such a way as to create an extremely dense and smoothly structured network at the paint surface. This provides a protective layer and ensures that the new nano-particle clearcoat is considerably more scratch-resistant than conventional paintwork. The effectiveness of the new technology was borne out by the results of an extreme test conducted in a laboratory car-wash according to DIN standards. The water used in the test contains a precisely measured concentration of fine particles and is spread over the paintwork by the rotating washing brushes, leaving behind scratches. After ten wash cycles in the laboratory car-wash, reproducing the degenerative effect of some 50 to 100 regular car washes - the nano-painted sheet metal emerged with around 40-percent greater gloss than samples with conventional clear lacquer. Mercedes-Benz is the world's first vehicle manufacturer to offer this more scratch-resistant clear lacquer.

http://www.sae.org/automag/material/...-112-2-108.pdf

Someone then posted the following:

......I had strikeforce put on mine at the dealer for 1500$. They told me NOT to wax my car ever and it would last 7 years. After the winter and about 20 touch free car washes still looks new....

And the answer:

Look... Polyglycoat, Strikeforce, Kriptonite, I don't care what it's called... it's a rip-off to get your bucks. Every reputable consumer group and/or auto painter will tell you that there isn't a word of truth to the hype.

The ONLY reason your MB GLK paint looks so good is because it's fairly new and also because of a newly developed Nano-Clear Coat Paint that Mercedes and the German paint manufacturer Sikkens developed for their cars..... it's so hard and glossy (and expen$ive) that it will viturally last forever even WITHOUT waxing. (So if any of you ever get into an accident, insist on the same clear coat application. Most insurance companies will refuse because of the cost.)

All things on this Earth decay when given enough time. Oxidation occurs on all paints, (even those with so called sealants). The only way to remove these contaminants and dug-in dirt (especially around the front of the car) is by using a paint-clay treatment or an oxidation removing compound... another words a polish. After that a good carnuba wax will do the trick....

Everything else is second rate and is only meant to extract money from those of us who are either too lazy or too cheap to do the job right.

Glyn M Ruck

Well you see the problem is that some are ripping people off.

The application of Auto Armor to your car in SA costs $100 which includes a second application 6 months from the first to ensure proper bonding & coverage.

The best way to increase oxidation of the clear coat is to break it's skin & increase it's surface area by micro scratching which all compound containing products do. Then you are on the downward spiral.

Glyn M Ruck

Of course old habits die hard!

Pristine

I'm not trying to get into a debate, so those of you who are saying that polish is not necessary, please confirm if I'm getting this right:
1. Wash the car
2. Clay it
3. Use wax or sealant (any brand)

This sounds good to me. So if you can confirm if it, I'll do just that.
I don't have a buffer, so is applying wax or sealant by hand OK?

Thanks.

LandSeaAir

Sounds about right. I'm planning on this:
Wash
Bug and tar removal
clay
sealant
wax over the sealant

and putting wax or sealant on by hand is fine, most people do it that way.

MBRedux

Okay.... so?

Glyn M Ruck

LSA - If you already have swirls then some of the damage is done but there are some good swirl reducers out there. Maguiar's have one that works fairly well.

RLE

I think you changed your tune a bit.