Glyn M Ruck

I see. Thanks for the clarification. The very fact that it is not standard if the drivers seat is so equiped is ludicrous. It smells of MBUSA doing anything they can to keep the base sticker price down & preserve some margin. You pay less than ROW for the cars you get less car. For the US it is an entry level vehicle.

What amuses me is the W204 forum's apparent love hate relationship with the car. I wonder why some people bought them if the opposition is so good in their eyes. Without doubt some of the fault lies with MBUSA but some around here sound more like AcapulcoBill every day. He bought the car, he spec'ed the car, he does not like the car & he prefers his Mondeo.

If people don't like Benz products then buy something else. Benz will not go out of business without them. For everyone that dislikes something there is somebody else who feels differently & likes the cars. e.g the brand has God like status in Asia. BMW wish they had Benz brand pull in that market. BMW & Audi are also rans in Asia.

Benz makes the majority if it's money out of selling heavy trucks.

Not picking on you MDMG. You are one of the more logical around here.

Sportstick

Should I be feeling my ears burning? My frustration, which I do vent here, is that I like my car, and am not emulating our friend from Mexico, but I cannot buy it again. I apparently caught MBUSA at a moment in time in 2009 when I could buy something satisfyingly close to what I wanted....and now it's gone. They are making more and more decisions which clearly are intended to attract someone else, and I guess I don't like being left behind. If I were first being introduced to the brand today, it's true I would look elsewhere, and I am sorry that they have walked away from folks like me. I doubt I will find another brand's dealer as good as the MB one I have now, but MBUSA has left me no choice but to go and find out. At the same time, my wife remains in love with her W211 and would be quite content with another or an S one day.

Glyn M Ruck

No you should not feel your ears burning. It's a free country. I'm pretty sure your next car will be a BMW & I hope it treats you well. They are very pleasant to drive when they are new. I'm just used to them not making old bones well in SA conditions & not being able to get through a road test here without a failure of some sort. They become troublesome & expensive to maintain here at fairly low mileage & usually develop sqeaks & rattles within a year of purchase as do Lexus. My old W203 C240 is now 10 years old in the hands of a friend & tight as a drum with never a single repair being required. Other than tyres & brake pads all that was ever done was 2 caster bushes replaced very early under warranty ~ a known problem & redesigned bushes are still as new. A 5 cent tranny sump plug washer & a RHS brake light lamp. That's it.

MDMercedesGuy

For what it's worth, Glyn - only the coupe is equipped with the manual slide seat. I have P1, so I have the 14 way driver seat with pneumatic lumbar and memory. I went with MB-Tex for the durability and perforations - which meant that my passenger seat is 8 way power with manual lumbar. The only thing I can think of why they would go with the manual slide on the passenger seat is for easy access to the back seat (rather than motoring forward like an E or a CL).


Going off on a tangent here, but I really fear for the car market in the US as time goes on. Kids these days aren't into cars like they used to be (I'm 31, so I'm not exactly that old) - and the proliferation of soulless appliances like the Prius isn't doing much to help.

I was talking to a younger (24 year old) coworker the other day about the process of ordering a Mercedes and the fact that you can pick your interior trim from several choices, pick your steering wheel, have 5 or 6 choices of interior color and then brought up Designo and his eyes kind of glazed over. He thinks of himself as an auto enthusiast, but owns a Toyota which he "ordered" (aka decided which predetermined package he wanted and his dealer pulled it from allocation). People like this who don't know a distributor cap from a doorknob are the people who are killing the prospects of the enthusiast auto market for the rest of us in the US.

Sorry for the (probably off topic) rant. I'm battling a cold and have enough Nyquil in my system to kill a horse.

xzotik1

I really like the MB interior over the BMW, however they have got to find a way to motorize or integrate that tablet. I know what you are thinking, why make such a big deal of the display? The answer is quite simple, one should love every part of one's Mercedes-Benz..."The Best or Nothing"

Germancar1

That really isn't true for a number of reasons. A Mercedes has never been a true sports sedan. Not like their arch rival BMW. People always complain about not having manuals, yet very few of those people actual buy. It is a huge farce. Fact is if people demanded and actually bought manuals they would offer them.

A non-AMG Mercedes has never been the sports sedan of any of their classes. Not until the previous W203 C-Class did they get serious about trying to compete with the sports sedan in the segment. The E and S have never been sports sedans. I think the sport version of the next C Class will be a decent sports sedan, but yes with the new S Mercedes is making it clear. Luxury S550 with a dose of sport, but if you truly want sporting you have to go with the S63 AMG.

Very few cars are light and agile in the AMG class. They're all heavy as hell (BMW M's) or dull to drive, Audi RS models. The E63 just beat the M5 at Motor Trend because it was better as a sports sedan so truly depends on what model you're talking about. Even the 3-Series doesn't sweep the class anymore.

M

Glyn M Ruck

I think you are right. Benz does not really build sporting cars (in the true sense of the word) in the standard range. If you want that you go AMG. The new BMW 3 Series has moved much closer to the W204 in comfort etc if not space. It's lost it's dynamic edge after years of *****ing about it's uncomfortable ride exacerbated by run flat tyres. It's become much softer in the latest iteration.

Here's a nice little Sports car.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...y-thought.html

Flawed

Damn that is an ugly *** nav screen.

It's like dating a perfect 10 model but she has an over-sized nosed so it brings her down to a 7.

MDMercedesGuy

The first place I saw this new screen was on the 2013 G Wagen. I thought that it was a concession to design for that carline - and it looks awkward there, but it fits the character of the vehicle better.

I did not realize this was the sad road Mercedes was going down.

Citation Driver

Looking over the pics, I have to say I like that MB treated the tach to the same size as the speedometer. No one has commented, but I don't see the old fashioned foot operated parking brake (I won't miss it). There may be some switches there that are for an electric parking brake (don't like those either.) I'd like to see a true hand brake at the central console for safety's sake.

Sportstick

I agree that MB and BMW are on different places on the spectrum, but where and how do you define the threshold into the "sports sedan" realm? In 2009, my Sports (vs. Lux) model, with unique suspension calibration, wheel/tire setup, manual trans, reasonable engine output (ok, not great but reasonable) certainly seemed to meet the entry level requirement, and some minor chassis mods have turned up the performance quite well....it's a traffic-circle-seeker! So, I think that was a qualified entry. The facelift moved it further away, with a plusher "mini-E" interior move, and loss of the stick. I don't see how a several inches longer W205 helps regain any of the lost attributes we're discussing.

I don't know your data source to compare the ratio of stick complainers vs. stick buyers. From a national syndicated automotive study to which I have access through my work, I can share that just under 5% of buyers in the C Class segment indicate intention for a manual transmission. I don't know which other people are the basis of the farce allegation, but that rate is similar to production for the vehicles where the trans is offered. Each manufacturer has to decide if that 5% is worth the investment to pursue. No one has suggested this feature is a high-volume choice. Audi, Cadillac, and BMW decided one way....MB the other. Let the chips (and buyers) fall where they may.

ptcruiser

I understand that the shift lever is on the steering column, but looking at interior photos, I can't seem to see it?
Anyone have a pic of it?
Thanks

MDMercedesGuy

It's obscured by the wheel - but based on what I can tell from one of the pics, it looks to be the corporate shifter used on the CLA, E, S, GLK, ML, and GL. You can probably find a shot of it on mbusa or media.daimler.com (the last one is great but horribly clunky to use until you get the hang of it).

ptcruiser

Thanks, I will try to find it.
I am very interested in buying one, but I haven't seen it "in the flesh" yet.
The reviews to date have not been outstanding in a couple of areas, but for the price, I can live with some shortcomings.
Regards

alsyli

Our family had a 2008 C300 Sport (auto). There was very little about the suspension calibration and, most importantly IMHO, the steering that suggested a sports car. Athletic, yes, but the steering was not great (for a car w/ sporting pretensions). Body control was good... until you tried to push it (even at legal highway speed), at which point you notice the tendency for the car to push.

IMHO, the criteria that a manual must be included for a car to be "sporty" is some weird US-specific obsession, and esp odd for a car make like MB that has a long history of poorly-reviewed manuals.... I think all MBs have the underlying structure necessary to be "sporty" but MB purposely tunes them to be different (I think they're better off softer since MB, IMHO, doesn't work the ride/handling balance very well when they're trying for sporty). For me, the ride/handling balance and steering are the most important. And for the latter, the last gen 3-series was exponentially better than any C-class.... Shame that BMW can't seem to create a reliable car... The one MT is testing as a long-term car has already had to have its steering unit replaced (!).

Not sure how the change to a "mini-E" interior makes the C-class more or less sporty. Is sporty determined by looks or how it actually drives? IMHO, the facelifted version is neither more or less sport than the pre-facelifted one since it drives rather similarly. ::shrug::

As for BMW offering a manual, the only reason one was included in the US-bound M5 is b/c they knew that enthusiasts would complain. AFAIK, it's not included anywhere else, including in Europe.

Truth be told, I welcome a softer C-class (both in terms of styling and chassis calibration), and I doubt I'm the only one....

Pete7874

You can somewhat see it if you download this hi-res image, or at least I think that's what it is...
http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadte...ngers-side.jpg

By the way, Motor Trend just posted a preview:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...class_preview/

Glyn M Ruck

I find the US takeup rate interesting vs. ROW at Sport 85 percent to the Luxury version's 15-percent. Due to competitive pricing I suspect that the Sport appeals to the boy racer.

Elsewhere the Avantgarde/Elegance split is very different.

Germancar1

Doesn't matter how big the next C-Class is or what kind of interior it has, it will come down to the suspension tuning and the whether or not the new 9G transmission will be sporty enough. Of course it can be bigger, more luxurious and sportier. We know it will be a lighter car because they've revealed that much already.

As far as stick shifts go, its really simple: Not of enough buyers purchased them when Mercedes offered them so they don't anymore. If more people demanded them MB would build them, and 5% isn't nearly worth certification in the U.S. market. Stick shifts are a dying breed. New 911 GT3 doesn't offer one anymore either.


M

Sportstick

We need to keep the distinction between a sports car and a sports sedan. They would not feel identical, if blindfolded, despite the usage of the same first word. Your use of "athletic" is quite well placed, and sedans regarded as "athletic" have also had the synonym of "sports sedan" used. No one regarded the original 2002 as a sports car, but as a surprisingly (at the time) athletic sedan!

I don't think I said the category requires a manual; I did say the presence of a manual helped it cross the definitional threshold of sports sedan as it suggests that the car was designed for a more active and involved driver. I also prioritize the ride/handling balance, but may set the goal at a different relationship, with thicker antisway bars and stiffer struts now happily in place. It no longer feels like the original car, but I think it is much for the better! Yes, I am also worried about having to visit service more often with a BMW. My current C has been outstanding for quality and reliability.

Driving and style are both important. If the undercarriage of a Porsche had a Pontiac Aztek body on top, I think it would not be well regarded as a sports-anything! The softer and plusher a car looks, the more one expects a consistent level of performance, changing the perception of the overall package.

I'm sure you are not the only one!! The 15% sales rate for the Luxury model likely is lower than the free demand for a softer suspension choice. This does tend to support that MB can and will sell most of whatever they put in the showroom and also that market free demand does not always work its way back into production programs. Some variations from actual first choice preference are not deal-breakers, as we see folks who would prefer a softer car driving out in a new Sport model.

Glyn M Ruck

Sportstick ~ Do most US buyers buy off the showroom floor or order their cars? In SA most order their cars & wait for them to be built as they want them.

MBUSA has this build your car feature on their website but after my friend in Dallas efforts to buy what he wanted in his ML & Tuscaloosa's inability to supply it via Park Place who were considered a good dealer when I lived there ~ I have to ask the question.

Sportstick

In the US, 90-95% of sales are from dealer inventory. Dealers floorplan (support with bank financing) substantial inventories to support same/next day delivery of a new sale. Dealers fear immediate-gratification Americans will buy elsewhere if they don't lock in the sale immediately.

alsyli

I'm not sure I agree. At least in LA, I think the badge on the hood trumps all. Take the Panamera, for example. While not as ugly as an Aztek, of course, it's actually pretty grotesque from a design perspective and the exterior doesn't scream "sporty" at all, in my mind. It sells well here in the LA b/c, well, it's a Porsche. And I think a lot of people (at least in LA) only care about the badge on the hood and fact that they can now carry more people then they could in a 911. I assume that, for the same reason, the Cayenne also sells well.

But perhaps Porsche can get away w/ it b/c it still apparently drives like a Porsche. So people are willing to overlook the hideous exterior, I imagine, and will still consider it sporty.

But that's sort of my point. If the looks of a car change a person's perception of how the car drives, then that's a "false" perception, since the looks have very little to do w/ how a car actually drives at US-legal speeds).

I'm not Sportstick, but I'll give my $0.02. I think most US buyers want their car right away. Whether that's b/c that's what the dealers are pushing or whether it's because that's what the US population actually wants, I have no idea. The W204 sports models were foisted upon us, for reasons that are unclear to me. We tried to find a W204 Luxury in 2008. Dealers would have 10-15 W204s, and all but one were the Sport model. When I purchased my car in 2012, the ratio was equally bad. Salespeople would also say weird things like, "You don't want the Luxury model, that's for old people. The Sports model is for young people!" Such sophisticated reasoning. =P

I've never tried to special-order cars, but I recall my father stating way back when (perhaps 20-25 yrs ago?) that MB dealers were willing to give you a great deal on cars straight off the lot and wouldn't bargain the price at all for a special-order one.

The salesman for my 2012 C-class told me that the dealership itself (not MB USA) is responsible for the loans for their cars (all the cars are bank-owned), so there's great pressure to move their inventory quickly. And they don't want to special order cars since they worry that the buyer will order unpopular color/options, not want to take the car, and then the dealer will be stuck trying to sell a car that popular options.... Makes sense from a business perspective.

Pete7874

In addition, sales people have monthly quota to meet. They'll do everything they can to sell you the car today or tomorrow. If someone orders a car, it won't count as a sale until the car is actually delivered 2 months later. And during these 2 months a lot can happen. A potential buyer can change their mind and walk away. All he'll lose is a small deposit. Sometimes even the deposit amount is refundable.

Sportstick

Your comments on the sales process are spot-on.

But, I think what I said about the above issue is different than your interpretation. I didn't say the look changes how the car drives....it changes the overall perception of the entire vehicle. If that were not the case, the C Class Sport vs. Lux would only be suspension hardware. But, they do through the trouble of a higher rate of interior woodgrain, a tan interior color option, a hood ornament, more chrome-intensive grille, all of which position the car for a more traditional and upscale luxury perception. Even without driving such a car, the expectation would be for a different experience than for the Sport model with different cues in each of those categories. It would be even less credible to make a case that a Luxury model C Class is a "sport sedan", even just from a set of photographs. I can tell you from 5 years of personal experience, that from folks just peaking into the window of my car and seeing the stick shift, several immediate and unprovoked responses related to the perception that this car must be fun to drive. The visual anticipates the experiential, and I think many adults can relate to this phenomenon from their personal lives!

As for L.A., the badge status factor is clear, as you said. And, I used an extreme example with the Aztek to make a point. But, I'm not sure the Panamera example is dispositive, as I've encountered a range of opinions about the visual success of that design exercise.

This discussion has evolved into the point where I wish we were all sitting around in the same room face-to-face!

CisternaChyli

15% seems about right; i barely see the Luxury version around here..last time i saw one was down in Los Angeles somewhere on the freeway..and LA is a huge place...to see only one is pretty surprising. The Sport model is also cheaper as well.