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I drove both the c300 and c400 yesterday. The 4cyl motor in the new car is much Improved over the horrible motor in my 2012 c250. Most of the turbo lag is gone and the feeling of no power one moment to now power is also gone. I feel that the in gear idle of the new 4 cyl motor is somewhat rougher than my 250. The marriage of the motor and the trans programming is vastly improved over my 12.
The 400, nothing can be said other than perfect! Smooth as a turbine, no lag anywhere, in fact there is no way to know it is a turbo other than never ending power, sound is a very pleasant change.
Unless you spend some tme in both, and I don't mean a 15 min test drive with the salesman, you can't really appreciate the difference! The more time spent the more you want the 400.
I recommend not driving the 400 if you have decided you don't need or want the power and the 300 is good enough!
The cost diff gets much closer once you factor in the standard P1 and the standard sport package, I think those 2 items equal 4000 or more dollars not to mention the standard 5 spoke AMG wheels standard on the 400
Thanks Mikefili for your comments. I was interested to know if the c300 you tested had the standard seats because I was looking for a comparison between the regular seats vs the sport seats.
You don't understand. You know better than Benz does. I have not contradicted anything but you can't grasp that as cars become lighter you can't pull the old tricks of the trade on feel. The suspension needs the weight to pull the trick. Continue to be obtuse. Good night & we agree to differ.
Quote from my first post.
"It is impressive that they have achieved the level of comfort they have in the W205 considering it is lighter. Well tuned, well damped steel suspension or air suspension are to thank on other than Sport models which I find jarringly firm especially with large diameter wheels & very low profile tyres."
You're lost in your own gunk. First you say that weight is what gives the feel in a Benz, then when I prove that to be an outdated notion with no basis you then scream about suspension, which is what I said in the first place. Bottom line is that you're hanging on to an outdated notion that you begrudgingly admitted is wrong. You're the one being "obtuse" on the subject. Honestly I no longer care what you think about the W205. Sheer weight does not = feel in a Mercedes. Period. Re-phrase it any way you want, but you don't know what you're talking about. I don't know better than Mercedes engineering, never said I did. What I said was that just sheer weight does not equal feel in a Benz and that point stands. That feel was present in their cars when they were much lighter back in the like the 80's and early 90's. It is more about how the car is built and how the various components you interact with are tuned, not just weight. Such a simple thing to grasp.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Yeah exactly. Let's let other members get on with the thead. Some can't read. I was the first person to mention suspension in my first contested post & later that specific mass or inertia allows the suspension to better perform it's job. Not difficult concepts to grasp. One should contemplate why the S Class, the epitomy of Benz feel in steel suspended form, is capable of soaking up road imperfections better than a C Class while running greater spring & damper rates & similar compliance. The answer is simple ~ it weights more.
In moden times it is the S class feel & composure that people love that permeates down into other models to a greater or lesser degree.
Let others now discuss the W205. A vehicle that I really like in C400 RWD "Exclusive" form.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 08-21-2014 at 11:38 AM.
Great, lets make the C-Class weigh the same as an S-Class. That should fix the dumb problem we're talking about. Wheelbase of the S-Class and suspension tuning have nothing to do with it, it just weighs more so it has to ride better. Problem solved. It "weights" more. Sigh....
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 08-21-2014 at 11:41 AM.
Not in your response to me you didn't. Your angle was that weight was what gave feel in a Mercedes and I called that outdated. Then you mentioned suspension after I said it about a dozen times. Now if you mentioned it to another poster then I'm not sure why or what you've being arguing for or about.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
The myopia continues.
What don't you understand about?:
"Weight adds to the feel we like in the cars. The W205 is on average over 100Kg's lighter than a W204 (Benz claim) due to the greater use of lightweight, high strength materials. It is impressive that they have achieved the level of comfort they have in the W205 considering it is lighter. Well tuned, well damped steel suspension or air suspension are to thank on other than Sport models which I find jarringly firm especially with large diameter wheels & very low profile tyres."
I have to admit, the first ever time I drove a Benz which was my friend's w204 it felt heavy. My first impression was it was "heavier", be it substance wise or the feeling associated with.
If I read Glyn correctly, he isn't trying to say sheer weight is creating this benz feel, but rather it is a common attribute towards this benz feeling. and of course there are many more factors like chassis, tuning, suspension and wheels or even material craftsmanship.
Just think of this "Benz feeling" as a , say a "equilibrium" of some sort, and it is achieved by adjusting x and y or maybe z and many more attributive factors. maybe more x and less y and same z gives you the same kind of feeling.
anyways, I can see you both know alot more about cars than i would ever be, so just my 0.01 and I'm REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO MY FIRST BENZ. C400 with sport.
Hmm from a physics point of view I think you're both right.
1) you need mass to help counteract intertia. Something light hit with force x is going to fly across the room, whereas a heavier object hit with the same force will resist motion more.
2) springs, suspension etc help to 'soak up' the force but have to release it somewhere. They soak up impulses and release them over a longer period of time.
3) you can make the springs softer or harder but one end has to be fixed to something that resists motion I.e. Something heavy (see 1), so in this case the 'heavy' body of the vehicle.
4) the size of the object I.e. Distribution of the weight will effect how it resists motion in different directions. A wide body with a heavy engine in the middle will almost work like a propellor if hit on the edge spinning about its heaviest point - the engine.
I think the reality of the argument is that you can change springs, weight distribution, size to completely change the 'feel' of the car, BUT there is a limit. Once you reduce the weight the forces absorbed by the springs etc have to be distributed over a longer period to give the same feel (they become less reactive to further forces) or they effectively create a bumpier ride making it feel like a tin can wratling down a hill.
Some silly examples, you could never make a go kart feel heavy and sturdy nor could you make a truck feel agile. Weight AND the rest all have an impact on how heavy or sturdy a vehicle feels.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by utsenmo
I have to admit, the first ever time I drove a Benz which was my friend's w204 it felt heavy. My first impression was it was "heavier", be it substance wise or the feeling associated with.
If I read Glyn correctly, he isn't trying to say sheer weight is creating this benz feel, but rather it is a common attribute towards this benz feeling. and of course there are many more factors like chassis, tuning, suspension and wheels or even material craftsmanship.
Just think of this "Benz feeling" as a , say a "equilibrium" of some sort, and it is achieved by adjusting x and y or maybe z and many more attributive factors. maybe more x and less y and same z gives you the same kind of feeling.
anyways, I can see you both know alot more about cars than i would ever be, so just my 0.01 and I'm REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO MY FIRST BENZ. C400 with sport.
Originally Posted by k187
Hmm from a physics point of view I think you're both right.
1) you need mass to help counteract intertia. Something light hit with force x is going to fly across the room, whereas a heavier object hit with the same force will resist motion more.
2) springs, suspension etc help to 'soak up' the force but have to release it somewhere. They soak up impulses and release them over a longer period of time.
3) you can make the springs softer or harder but one end has to be fixed to something that resists motion I.e. Something heavy (see 1), so in this case the 'heavy' body of the vehicle.
4) the size of the object I.e. Distribution of the weight will effect how it resists motion in different directions. A wide body with a heavy engine in the middle will almost work like a propellor if hit on the edge spinning about its heaviest point - the engine.
I think the reality of the argument is that you can change springs, weight distribution, size to completely change the 'feel' of the car, BUT there is a limit. Once you reduce the weight the forces absorbed by the springs etc have to be distributed over a longer period to give the same feel (they become less reactive to further forces) or they effectively create a bumpier ride making it feel like a tin can wratling down a hill.
Some silly examples, you could never make a go kart feel heavy and sturdy nor could you make a truck feel agile. Weight AND the rest all have an impact on how heavy or sturdy a vehicle feels.
2 X clever chaps in a row & lateral thinkers. EXACTLY! & thank you. Thanks also to other fine engineers that PM'ed their support.
It is also capably explained in the link I provided.
k187, some excellent analogies. You would make a better trainer/teacher than I would. While I try to use layman's language on this forum I do not pretend to give all encompassing, definitive commentary on subjects as most people understand me.
The last time I did a definitive piece was on engine balance, vibration & resonance & that took days & many posts to achieve due to max. post length limitations.
"Weight adds to the feel we like in the cars. The W205 is on average over 100Kg's lighter than a W204 (Benz claim) due to the greater use of lightweight, high strength materials. It is impressive that they have achieved the level of comfort they have in the W205 considering it is lighter. Well tuned, well damped steel suspension or air suspension are to thank on other than Sport models which I find jarringly firm especially with large diameter wheels & very low profile tyres."
What don't you understand that weight does not add to feel. You could make a W205 as heavy as a S550 and it will never feel the same. Weight does not have feel. Not sure what is so hard for you grasp. There are literally a hundred other things that go into how a car feels, especially a Mercedes and it isn't weight. You're just lost.
You're only arguing now because you feel some kinda way about being in the dark thinking that sheer weight = feel. Nothing could be more outdated and just plain wrong. It is a myriad of things. A C will never feel like an S, doesn't matter how much it weighs. I said suspension and other things LONG time ago and you keep talking about weight. The people you're agreeing with are saying the same thing I said LONG TIME AGO: IT ISN'T JUST WEIGHT.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 08-22-2014 at 12:37 PM.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
One fine engineer that PM'ed me questions your sanity. In fact he said a lot worse.
Firstly ~ I did not start this argument, you did.
I stated:
"Weight ADDS to the feel we like in the cars. The W205 is on average over 100Kg's lighter than a W204 (Benz claim) due to the greater use of lightweight, high strength materials. It is impressive that they have achieved the level of comfort they have in the W205 considering it is lighter. Well tuned, well damped steel suspension or air suspension are to thank on other than Sport models which I find jarringly firm especially with large diameter wheels & very low profile tyres."
MBNUT ~ Fred, an engineer agreed with me completely.
You stated & reiterated numerous times:
"Weight is NOT what gives a Mercedes-Benz the feeling they give." and waffled on about things & that my notion was outdated.
Well pure physics is never outdated as ably explained by k187 & in the link I provided
Quote
"1) you need mass to help counteract intertia. Something light hit with force x is going to fly across the room, whereas a heavier object hit with the same force will resist motion more.
2) springs, suspension etc help to 'soak up' the force but have to release it somewhere. They soak up impulses and release them over a longer period of time.
3) you can make the springs softer or harder but one end has to be fixed to something that resists motion I.e. Something heavy (see 1), so in this case the 'heavy' body of the vehicle.
4) the size of the object I.e. Distribution of the weight will effect how it resists motion in different directions. A wide body with a heavy engine in the middle will almost work like a propellor if hit on the edge spinning about its heaviest point - the engine.
I think the reality of the argument is that you can change springs, weight distribution, size to completely change the 'feel' of the car, BUT there is a limit. Once you reduce the weight the forces absorbed by the springs etc have to be distributed over a longer period to give the same feel (they become less reactive to further forces) or they effectively create a bumpier ride making it feel like a tin can wratling down a hill.
Some silly examples, you could never make a go kart feel heavy and sturdy nor could you make a truck feel agile. Weight AND the rest all have an impact on how heavy or sturdy a vehicle feels."
I never ever stated weight alone in isolation is responsible for the feel. I said it ADDS to the feel. Physics makes sure you would be buggered without the sprung mass of a vehicle. No one has ever denied that the feel of a door or just screwing the damn thing together properly etc. all adds to the feel. Tactile interior materials add to the feel.
All that said can we now give someone else a chance on this thread.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 08-22-2014 at 02:44 PM.
Again, you only suggested other factors about feel ONCE I SAID THAT YOUR RIDICULOUS NOTION WAS OUTDATED.
WEIGHT DOES NOT GIVE A CAR FEEL. YOU DON'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THAT A WELL CONSTRUCTED, RIGID PLATFORM PROVIDES THE BEST POINT FOR A SUSPENSION TO DO IT'S JOB, NOT JUST A HEAVY CAR OR BODY.
WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND? WEIGHT DOESN'T MEAN SQUAT IN CAR AS FAR AS FEEL GOES. IT DOESN'T ADD TO FEEL. WEIGHT BLUNTS THE RESPONSES AND KILLS THE LINK BETWEEN A CAR AND THE DRIVER.
You're so confused that you don't even realize that what they're saying to you.
A MERCEDES GETS IT FEEL FROM A RIGID PLATFORM AND THE WAY THAT THE STEERING, SUSPENSION AND BRAKES ARE TUNED AND FROM A RIGID PLATFORM THAT ALLOWS THE SUSPENSION TO DO ITS JOB.
Weight does not give a Mercedes-Benz it's feel and if you're not saying that it is weight alone, THAT IS WHAT I SAID FROM THE START. WEIGHT DOES NOT ADD TO THE FEEL OF A MERCEDES-BENZ, OTHERWISE THE OLDER CARS THEY MADE THAT WERE LIGHT WEIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE FELT THE WAY THEY DID. WEIGHT DOES NOT ADD FEEL, IF ANYTHING IT BLUNTS IT, UNLIKE YOU LIKE DRIVING SOMETHING HEAVY AND ALOOF.
AGAIN, you're only going on about this because you know what you originally said said was just ridiculous and not based on anything in reality.
Weight does not add feel to a car, it blunts it.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 08-22-2014 at 05:10 PM.
The only person defeated by their only ridiculous notion is the one that thinks that weight gives a car feel. Nothing could be more off base and absurd. Everyone (should) knows that weight blunts feel in a car, even a Mercedes...unless you like the feeling of driving inert tank with no dynamic prowess at all.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 08-22-2014 at 11:46 PM.
I just saw a c400 on the dealership today. When I saw it I thought it was a S-class then I saw the C letter on the trunk. Somehow the exterior is not as sporty as the W204 the butt line looks too short and round. The front is okay and looks more upscale than the previoous generation. The big ipad screen inside looks like it is screaming to be pulled-out. Space inside looks the same as before. I do like the seats and the treatments it has inside. The mouse pad looking thing in the center console is a little too much and would be scratched too easily. I do like the performance though but other than that I still prefer my W204. There is actually a white C63 507 edition seating outside the dealership and I will prefer that one than buying the c400 even if I will have to pay extra $10,000.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by Germancar1
The only person defeated by their only ridiculous notion is the one that thinks that weight gives a car feel. Nothing could be more off base and absurd. Everyone (should) knows that weight blunts feel in a car, even a Mercedes...unless you like the feeling of driving inert tank with no dynamic prowess at all.
M
You just shot yourself in the foot again. Of course weight blunts the feel. That's exactly what you want or you would feel every match stick in the road & have no stability. Sufficient, controlled blunting in your terminology gives part of the Benz feel. Excess weight for a given stiffness, spring & damper rate will give a luxo barge feel. The go kart & truck analogy again. The converse, of course, also applies. If the car is too light the sprung mass can't absorb sufficient energy from the suspension thus giving a poor ride & feel.
Older cars were running on skinny high profile tyres. That is partially why that worked. They were not particularly dynamic either due to softer springing & less damping. Once again you can't defy the laws of physics. Sorry you have trouble with English.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 08-26-2014 at 06:57 PM.
You just shot yourself in the foot again. Of course weight blunts the feel. That's exactly what you want or you would feel every match stick in the road & have no stability. Sufficient, controlled blunting in your terminology gives part of the Benz feel. Excess weight for a given stiffness, spring & damper rate will give a luxo barge feel. The go kart & truck analogy again.
Nah, you're just lost in a grey area of not knowing what you're talking about and not knowing how to articulate what you're really trying to say.
What you're talking about is weight smothering bumps. That isn't "FEEL", there is no FEEL in that. You feel nothing. Again, you're wrong because Mercedes' lighter cars, especially back in the day, rode just as well without all the weight of their larger siblings. Again, you don't know what you're talking about.
Weight doesn't automatically = a smoother ride, AGAIN, WE ARE BACK TO SUSPENSION BEING THE KEY NOT WEIGHT.
Your notions about car design are so outdated that you still think that you can't have feel and a good ride at the same time. OUTDATED.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 08-25-2014 at 12:58 PM.
08-21-2014, 07:49 AM
One fine engineer that PM'ed me questions your sanity. In fact he said a lot worse.
