Glyn M Ruck

I'm sure you have a better ghetto blaster. I'm talking about accurate sound. Even companies as venerable as Audio Research can't get Class D amps to sound anywhere near as good as Class A running into Class A/B at very high SPL's.

Class D amps only have two positives. Ultra cheap to build & low heat generation. They are crap. I've been in high end audio all my life as a sleeping partner in the importer of most of the high end brands to SA, from Audio Research, to Krell & Rowland Research to Conrad Johnson & Bryston, Magnepan, Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, Arnie Nudell Infinity, JM Focal Lab, Velodyne, JL Audio, Linn, Anthem, Thorens, Clearaudio & I can go on & on. Class D amplifiers are sonically compromised.

You can get away with Class D driving narrow bandwidth Subwoofers & thats about it in really decent sound.

abstractls

Once again you need to get out more. There are digitally controlled Class Ds and Analog controlled Class Ds. The REASON car audio manufacturers use them is because of heat issues and cost. Yes of COURSE an A/B with plenty of room and airflow and loads of great internals can be the best but this is not an ideal situation for a car. The Analog controlled are very good and what Burmester and myself uses. Yes I can spew a bunch of high end audio names as well, you're not impressing me. I competed on the national level for sound quality not SPL, but thanks for the accusation, how in the heck are you a mod?

Get off Burmester's nuts, there are plenty of systems out there that can smoke it, why are you defending it like it's the best thing in the wold. I'm buying the freaking car and got the system to go with it. Relax. But I know it's not the best and it doesn't even beat my current car. I have heard the thing using classical, rock, dance, etc.. It's great but it's still just a great premium system, not a high end one.

Glyn M Ruck

I'll bet I've got out a lot more than you have. I've just retired from a global oil industry job looking after 227 markets globally. I don't think there is a high end audio show in the world I have not attended multiple times. I am allowed to disagree with you as you are allowed to disagree with me. I'm not saying that the Burmester systems fitted to Benz are the best possible. They are not cost no object. I am saying that even the best car audio shops do not have the wherewithall to set up car audio systems as an integral part of the design as Burmester have in the S Class as an example with constricted driver sizes. Anyone can cut a car to bits. Few stand any chance of achieving a flat response at most listening positions in a car.

In fact I consider spending too much on car audio to be a futile exercise due to the hostile environment for sound.

abstractls

Come on man, don't be that guy that has to spew his resume on his job and snobbery. I know plenty of millionaires that buy things just because they THINK it's the best. I used to sell the high end stuff and I nearly snickered every time some guy talked about his $2k reference speaker cables knowing it was all a load of bull and has been proved to be so. Stop telling us your resume, we don't care and it makes you look like a small man. I can retort I just don't care.

I agree at a certain point with a car you are getting very low diminishing returns. You are correct getting an acoustically perfect and flat response out of a car is basically impossible. And the integration is one of the most beautiful things about the Burmester. (BTW I Say screw my passengers and have everything delayed and tuned to the drivers position. I paid for the car).

But again your statement was that no after market ill sound as good and that I couldn't et one to sound better. It's flat our wrong. Now for the price of the Burmester could I do it? I doubt it, but maybe, and it wouldn't look as good. That I wont disagree with. I fully stand behind it's worth every single dollar but a part of me is a little sad i'm downgrading a bit. But I don't compete anymore, it's still a hell of a system and while some people may not know the difference between that and the Bose I'm sure both you and I could easily tell the difference.

utsenmo

this argument is getting dangerously close to that one we read on weight and feel.

To me M's posts were very easy to understand and has wisdom for a normal listener like me. Don't get him wrong, I don't think he is trying to crown burmester for being the best which no can beat.

and Abstractls is letting us know other alternatives which is also appreciated.

both Abstractls and M's input are helpful. helps us to make informed decision is what this forum is for.

this argument needs not to be offensive. and M has been a nice mod, both behavioral wise and contribution wise.

stay cool friends

Glyn M Ruck

Peace!

Glyn M Ruck

An amusing anecdote on cables. When Harry Pearson still owned The Absolute Sound Magazine he found that bright orange Home Depot Weedeater cable, made in the Philippines, for a couple of bucks sounded better than all the mega buck cables like Cardas etc. in his Super Maggie system IIRC.

Man, the Golden Ear Brigade was pissed with him.

abstractls

I don't doubt it, lol. I will generally invest in some nice decent thickness cables but half the time I just look for what has a pretty jacket. RCAs are a bit different but even then I would never spend more than $50 or so on those either. I would venture to guess the entire Burmester is basic old strand copper in every car and it will sound just fine

Glyn M Ruck

Yeah! My entire Audio Research, Magneplanar surround sound system is bi-amped with Bryston 10B X Overs & wired with old Monster M550i & Kimber Hero with heavy gauge van den Hul speaker wire. All cheap. I do like WBT RCA's because they don't damage the female plugs. I have never changed an IEC power cable & it all sounds great. I have some very long runs because I like the amps close to the speakers.

Just done an 11.2 system for a friend in Dallas & used Blue Jeans throughout. They use great cable & it's cheap.

alsyli

Which one is "M"???

utsenmo

Glyn M Ruck, , I'm too lazy to type everything from his name but I admit that letter "M" is the first thing i recall when thinking of his name.

I really enjoy reading his inputs, same as I do enjoy other people's.

This forum has been a daily visit for me since i registered.

JonathonK

Soundtracks are becoming more and more important in cars. Not the ones out of the exhaust, but rather the ones out of the speakers. Primarily this is due to the fact that most cars are getting quieter and quieter, and as human beings, we don’t like the quiet. So what do we do? Slap a gigantic system in the car to bump some bass!

Read the rest on the MBWorld homepage.

ibeforreal

Have listened to the audio in the new S-Class that had the upgraded sound system installed and it sounds awesome. However, $6000 for a car sound system that will depreciate on a daily basis seems a bit extreme. Just my opinion.

c200amgline

Got my car yesterday and I must say that the standard audio isn't as bad as everyone perceived it. Although I haven't heard the Burmester soundsystem, I am still impressed with this system, and I would actually rather not listen to Burmester so that this system doesn't feel worse. I have listened to Range Rover's Harmon Kardon and my C-Class is just as good or probably even clearer and more balanced.

hyperion667

I have the buttmeister in my new S; it's great, makes the HK in my 2012 cls sound terrible......

alsyli

I imagine the sound system in any modern car is going to be totally adequate. =) No need to waste the $, if you have other priorities.

c200amgline

Agreed The price is simply not justifiable whatsoever.

TheTherapist

As a music lover and audiophile my priority is premium sounding audio so I guess it's all relative isn't it? For me "Totally adequate" just doesn't cut it.

TheTherapist

The acoustics of the environment play a crucial role in audio quality and the impact and enjoyment of your music. When reproducing music within a home environment one has far more opportunity to compensate for poor acoustics primarily with speaker placement although there's many other ways to "voice' an audiophile rig allowing for more musical enjoyment. I have known audiophiles with high end systems to throw big money at component upgrades in search of better sound when the law of diminishing returns makes the upgrade of negligible benefit. Often a simple throw rug or furniture rearrangement will yield more pleasing audio.

Conversely musical reproduction in an automobile does not allow for this versatility when fine tuning for musical enjoyment. Speaker positions are fixed, cabinets are not sized ideally, voltages, amps and ohms are inappropriate for high end reproduction and the space cannot be tailored for optimum "sweet spot" enjoyment. In addition there are other negative conditions to detract from the overall experience including road noise and visual distractions. A true and honest sound is simply impossible to reproduce due to inherent limitations of the hostile environment - for instance deep bass requires a large open space to be interpreted correctly, the deeper the bass the larger the space, whereas in a limited area the low frequencies need to be artificially inflated sounding bloated and muddy or alternatively if left unboosted the resulting sound is perceived as hollow and lacking in substance. Ideally an audiophile system should not require any equalization. And we haven't even touched upon all the inappropriately positioned reflective surfaces in the confines of a car which audio waves bounce off in an impossible to compensate for cacophony.

Surprisingly also the human ears are one of the weakest components in the entire audio chain from the music source through to the listeners brain where the result is processed.

More pertinent though are the acoustics of the vehicle interior which can have the most dramatic impact on the perceived audio quality. Mercedes have one big immediate advantage in that the interior is generally solid with no hollow surfaces or flimsy panels likely to reverberate or impact the sound adversely although the shape of your interior is fixed and cannot be easily compensated for. Ensuring correct speaker placement is paramount for creating a vibrant and engaging sound stage.

abstractls has argued in favor of Focal speakers and I have used Focal in a couple of my Mercs. As far as I am concerned they are unrivaled in car audio with superior imaging and a crisp sweet high end that is unmatched by any competitor. Interestingly though the best car audio that I have experienced was in my first ever Merc, a W123 1978 280E in which I installed a set of the least expensive Focal speakers: 5inch 2 ways in the front and 6.5inch 2 ways in the rear. The solid chassis restricted bass extending from the trunk which was provided by an Alpine subwoofer. After attempting many fixes the final solution was to place the subwoofer in the center of the rear seat where it could breathe in unison with the other frequencies comprising the music. The sound provided was a treat that one had to hear to truly appreciate. In a later Mercedes I installed much more expensive Focals together with a higher end 16 volt head unit but could never recreate that special sound inherent to the W123 chassis interior. I use this example to illustrate the fact that equipment quality alone does not automatically guarantee superior sound quality.

There is something else not often considered when evaluating audio - no equipment, no matter how expensive or esoteric, will ever truly recreate the experience of listening to live music. All components, especially speakers will permeate their own unique sound into the audio playing through them. So like a piece of art that the viewer finds satisfying so too does the listener connect with the audio signature inherent to the equipment brand that they find pleasing making the experience truly subjective with no one solution being ultimately correct.

Glyn M Ruck

Very good & balanced commentary.

Dema

I am just curious what is your source of music if you are so concerned about sound reproduction quality. So far as I know satellite radio is considered as top quality source now, but it sound simply terrible, you can listen how badly music was compressed. Where do you get wide dynamic range music to open all your capabilities of high end sound system?

Glyn M Ruck

The source must be from very well recorded disc for commentary to be reasonable e.g Chesky, Harmonia Mundi, ECM etc.

TheTherapist

In my home when listening through audiophile grade equipment I mostly listen to high resolution digital recordings. This is music that has been recorded at studio quality which is much superior to CD's. The very best recordings also tend to be remastered although the abilities and ear of the engineer doing the remastering can vary somewhat.

Keep in mind all digital music is a binary representation of the original analog signal and must be converted back to analog for output via your speakers. The quality of your DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) is of paramount importance. High end preamps generally include a quality DAC although in a home setup the DAC is usually purchased as a separate component. If your source is a computer then a USB DAC is essential so the audio file bypasses the poor quality computer circuitry and is passed straight to the DAC where it is converted to high quality analog then sent to your preamp where the signals voltage is increased and processed ready for output by the power amp to the speakers. The music was originally recorded in analog so the trick is to immediately convert back at high quality then output with the least amount of processing along the signal path to remain as true as possible to what the artist originally intended.

Vinyl has enjoyed a resurgence in popularity and despite its obvious flaws (static, wow and flutter, pitch issues, scratches etc) it can still offer a superior sound with no DAC required as it is already analog. I have done side by side comparisons and vinyl offers a sweeter, rounder , fuller, more warm sound. Just nicer full stop than the colder, crisper, more clinical digital representation.

Digital music comes in various formats (this is not a complete list):
__________________________________________________ _______

MP3 : A compressed "lossy" format (information is stripped from the audio and can never be returned). MP3's come in various qualities some of the most popular being:

128kb 44,100khz (iTunes quality)
VBR 44,100khz (adjusts the bitrate depending on the compexity)
320kb 44,100khz (best quality MP3)
__________________________________________________ _______

FLAC or AC3 or WAV : Although they can include compression these are "lossless" formats and reproduce all of the original recording. FLAC is the most popular amongst audiophiles and can be studio quality or above. Examples include:

24bit 192,000khz (exceedingly high quality)
24bit 96,000khz (studio quality)
24bit 48,000khz (still well beyond CD quality)
__________________________________________________ _______

CD quality : Lossless though can vary in quality

16bit 44,100khz
__________________________________________________ _______

With various setting changes, command line parameters and careful "ripping" using audiophile software high resolution audio can be compressed to MP3 and still retain a premium sound. This is what I listen to in the car for compatibility and convenience.

n3cr1d

what is the best program to download musics and listen in the car? can be free or not...
and the best way to listen this is usb???

Leslielp

There is a company in the US AIX Records that produce 96khz/24 bit audio DVD. Mercedes is one the few car manufacturers that still support this format. Well my 2012 did and so did my GLK.
The founder of AIX is a big fan of 5.1. He likes to recreate the sound field of an on stage or front stage environment.
The master recordings are all uncompressed so you have to turn up your volume so be warned when you switch back to another source.
If you manage to get your hands on any recordings done in this or a similar method, you will be immersed into a rich sound environment that will make you glad you took the Burmester but will do wonders to the standard setup as well.
There is lot of chat on here about high end audio, but this is a car you are talking about. With 13 speaker setup, you will see why 5.1 works so well in a car.
I am no audiophile, I like PMC transmission line sound so I am biased to a certain extent.
I will have to take an Audio DVD to my next visit to a dealer to make sure they kept this CD player format.