John Long 55

Vadim,

It appears that Kleeman also has a problem with it's advertised HP results.

The figures quote for their K S8 on 5.0L appear to be the exact figures that are being acheived by this kit on an AMG 5.5L.

http://www.kleemann.dk/site/3CCAE156...374819FC06.htm


Are Kleeman using a 2 bar map sensor?


John

ProjectC55

Lol!Tell one of the mods to delete! Somethings I'd keep under the belt.

Vadim-SoCal

I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

All of the Kleemann installs done at evosport made the power that was advertised.

AMGSC

Can you or any other Kleemann S/C customers please provide a testimonial that they witnessed their own dyno's? If so can you provide a picture of you standing next to or holding the dyno chart near your face with a big smile?

That's what Adam has asked me to do once this ordeal is resolved. In addition we will have my car dyno'd at three independent shops with my mug next to each dyno chart. I will either be smiling or crying .

AMGSC

If this turns out bad. Has anybody had any success with a twin-turbo on a C55? How much, safe?, successful? etc.. Will it fit in my engine? Will certain dealers work on the car? I know the factory warranty will be voided but with all the other add-ons to SCs the warrantly would have been voided anyway.

I'm beginning to doubt any supercharger makes the advertised power. The C55 already has good low-end torque but lacks the high-end power so I think a twin-turbo makes sense?

Vadim-SoCal

I think a number of Kleemann owners will be able to satisfy your request.

Somewhom I got a feeling you will not be smiling.


Has it been good so far???????

I am not aware of any twin turbos, with enough budget they are possible. However, no dealer will touch it, you will have to deal with an engine compartment heat issues, no way it will pass smog and tuning will have to be started all over again. And turbos are a lot harder to tune than a SC.

Kleemann makes the power they promise. Many owners on this board are telling you this, backing up their claims with dynoes and drag strip slips. Hook up with JamE55, he has a Kleemann on his car, he will take you for a ride. Talk to DragonAMG, do a search under Kleemann - they have had SC out for over five years now and it is CARB approved.

Yet you are willing to follow someone who lied to you and tried to perpertrate a fraud on you.

dragonAMG

I can do better than a picture... here's a freakin video of my car on a dynojet here in Vegas.

http://www.cligroups.com/55KS7/c55ks7dyno445rwhp.MPG

Enjoy!

JamE55

Then you haven't experienced Kleemann!

JR1

It's really funny to me to hear that mentioned. Being how Adam was the first to point fingers at another shop and say that they would fudge numbers. When in fact the company he uses has apparently fudged a number on your car. Giving you a dyno that said your whp was 414 hp. Then to save what little face they have left they tell you "well we aren't sure if that's the right dyno either". Not to mention SuperC55 takes his car to a "independant dyno" that Adam knows and has a dyno that is plain as day a Viper graph being pushed as the real deal. Well I bet DC Performance is going to get alot of customers that way. I wonder if perhaps Super C55 himself didn't doctor the run, thinking that the readers on this forum would never know the better.
I've gone back and read all the posts between HPS and there battle against Kleemann, and I've read all the posts about HPS vs HoP. There is a common similarity between the two battles........HPS. Kinda seems like they talk out of their a$$es alot in one's opinion.
So you buy an expensive car.... the performance car of all compact 4 doors. You gonna put regular unleaded in her? I bet no right? Then why would you put on a system that wasn't R&D'd correctly before it was made available to the public? Wait I know because it was cheap right? Well looks like you got what you paid for. So now your cars broke and for some funny reason the charger according to the rocket scientists at HPS say is making less boost than before, and now even with a smaller pulley. You are once again asking the forum members for help as to why this is happening......again. Now I want you to take a step back and re-read that for me out loud. Your asking forum members again for advice on how to fix your car. Do you realise that the members here know more about these cars and cars in general than the so called self proclaimed engineers do at HPS? Does that worry you in the least little bit?...... Wait I know it's because it was cheap right? That's why you bought it, ok I get it now. Please forgive me for my abrasiveness but come on. Do you need to be hit over the back of the head to notice what's going on ? Now I know it's just not this guy AMGSC that's having the problem with this system, but there are others too roflmao. When HPS gets done with you please come to me I have some ocean front property in Idaho I want to sell you.

JamE55

Robert,

If you don't mind me asking. How much of a downtime have you had ever since you last drove the car? 1 week? 2 weeks or what?

John Long 55

Vadim,

DragonAMG quotes his car as a Kleemann S7 kit and give the HP and TQ as follows...

2005 KLEEMANN 55K S7
Mods - KLEEMANN V8 Kompressor System, KLEEMANN Headers & Downpipes, KLEEMANN Exhaust, KLEEMANN LSD, KLEEMANN ECU, KLEEMANN Logo Package, Bilstein PSS-9, 19" HRE 441R w/ PS2's
POWER - 531 hp / 540 torque @ 5 lbs.
ET - 11.997 @ 117.79 (1.881 60'/2,200 ft./street tires)

The link i gave shows Kleemann's advertised results for there kits on a 5.0L

http://www.kleemann.dk/site/3CCAE15...D374819FC06.htm

For a S7 kit they quote 586hp and 562ft/lbs, that's a fair bit more than DragonAMG is getting from his car which has a bigger engine. What gives?

Cheers
John

John Long 55

[QUOTE=Vadim-SoCal] However, no dealer will touch it, you will have to deal with an engine compartment heat issues, no way it will pass smog and tuning will have to be started all over again. And turbos are a lot harder to tune than a SC.
[QUOTE]

Vadim are you implying that turbos will not pass smog and superchargers will? Pls elaborate.

And why do you beleive that turbos are harder to tune than superchargers?

On the heat issue pls rememeber that an engine making 500fwhp with a supercharger is actually making circa 570hp as it will need circa 70hp to drive the supercharger. An engine making 500fwhp with a turbo does not need to make extra hp to drive the turbine and will therefore make 500fwhp with less heat and less boost than the supercharged engine. The heat issues with turbos relate to the placement of the turbos.

JR1

What documentation do you have that shows a supercharger pulls 70 horsepower to turn it. Post a link to the evidence please, or is this your opinion?
Please explain "circa" and this new horsepower measurement "fwhp". Are you trying to say fwhp= front wheel horsepower? A chassis dyno does not know the difference between front or rear wheel drive. The two standard measurements of horsepower are "BHP" Brake Horsepower and "WHP" Wheel Horsepower. Lets not make it more difficult by adding your own new form of horsepower measurement.
The heat issues with turbo's or with superchargers for that matter have very little to do with the placement of the compressor. A compressor compresses air which therefore creates heat. Anytime you compress molecules they will give off heat. Some compressors are more efficient at this than others that is why their adiabatic efficiency rating is different. By placing a compressor in an area where there is poor air circulation or where it is just really hot you will cause the compressor to become heatsoaked. This can elevate air discharge temps slightly, not drastically. Don't forget that all vehicles suffer from drivetrain loss. So the vehicle making 500 whp that you used as a description is a flawed example. The 70 horsepower loss that you tried to say was caused by the resistance of the compressor and that it would rob 70 horsepower is incorrect. Because you are not adding in the drivetrain loss%. By also using a turbo motor in comparison with a supercharged motor is like comparing apples to oranges.

John Long 55

1. pls have a look at the Eaton website.

2. Sorry you are having problems understanding this, fwhp is commonly used in car circles and means flywheel horse power. You can see fwhp refered to many time in this thread by various posters. If you are interested in HP standards BHP is not a standard as you have stated, you can refer to the Society of Automotive Engineers of SAE for standards re engine ratings.

3. Sorry but I did not say anything about the placement of superchargers or compressors... please read my post again, I did say "The heat issues with turbos relate to the placement of the turbos." A turbo for your information gives of far more heat from the exhaust turbine than the compressor turbine because the exhaust gases run thru it. Basic really.

4. Not sure if you are joking here... but i will respond, yes you are perfectly correct if you chose to drive your supercharger from the back wheels rather than the crank as most people do

Josh K

1. The Eaton supercharger stats are far from accurate for other superchargers. Eatons are the least efficient charger you can get - screw types and centrifugals do not need nearly as much power to drive them. Your posts seemed to make a blanket statement about superchargers in general and I think JR was basically pointing that out.

2. The only time I've ever heard of fwhp has been in reference to "front wheel horsepower." Even flywheel horsepower is measured on an engine dyno through engine braking - BHP is the standard, WHP is the other (whether it be fwhp or rwhp)

4. Using BHP to give numbers is bull***** unless you take the motor out of the car and put it on an engine dyno (which obviously no one does). Virtually all measurements will be done on a chassis dyno which measures WHP, any BHP numbers will be estimates at best and as such are basically just BS numbers to sell products to people that don't know much about tuning.

And by the way, an engine making 500 hp with a supercharger is most certainly not making 570 lol. There is an equalization point when the supercharger's boost makes up for the power it takes to spin it, and without the supercharger, it wouldn't be making anywhere near that power to begin with.

E55Cent

70 horsepower to drive a blower, NOW WAY!!!!
I would agree that supercharger are not "free" horsepower, but I would guess my blower takes 10hp to make 5psi of boost. A supercharger is much like an alternator or A/C or anything else that the belt drives. I don't think I'm loosing 40, 50 or 70hp when I turn on my A/C, when driving down the 405 freeway.
I'm not sure about your supercharger, but my blower has bearings in it.

JamE55

I believe it's because Dragon's number are not at sea level that's why.

m444

Look at this:

http://automotive.eaton.com/product/...rgers/M112.asp

I think the HPS uinit was a Eaton M112?

John Long 55

Hi Josh,

1. yep Eatons are the least effecient when it comes to higher boost 8lbs + applications because they heat the air being compressed more than screw types and centrifugals types generating the same boost. At 8lbs of boost each of these styles of superchargers would require pretty much the same amount of HP to drive them.

2. BHP does not indicate if the measurement is taken at the flywheel or rear wheels. BHP does indicate as you have said that the measurement was taken using a brake dyno (the other methods are estimation ). BHP is not a standard, the two commonly used standards are SAE for the US and DIN for Europe.

4. I sort of agree with you but, rwhp is very useful for benchmarking a vehicle before and after mods and tuning changes are made.

Indeed a supercharged vehicle will need to make more than 500hp to deliver 500hp at the flywheel because superchargers takes hp to drive it.

Vadim-SoCal

Very well said! Dittos!



Do not know, talk to Cory@Kleemann. On all 55s and 500s that we did gains corresponded to what was promised.



Kleemann SC kit has CARB number, turbos do not. They do not even exist as we speak.

Kleemann kit comes tuned, turbos will require extensive tuning at WOT and part throttle to make them feasible for every day driving.



Any mechanical device that relies on engine drive will take away from total HP number that that engine produces.

Roots blowers or Lysholm blowers require anywhere from 60 to 100HP to drive depending on how much air they move and at what RPM.

Same applies to turbos, except that the power they take away has to do with exhaust restriction required to spin turbos close to 100,000 rpm to achieve desired boost.

There is no free lunch, in mechanical terms, except juice.

P.S. I meant nitrous oxide injection.

John Long 55

m444,

yep spot on, 40hp for 5psi and 60hp for 10psi. My 70hp may be a bit high but not much when you add in the friction of the belt drive...

you can also see a dramatic increase in the delta temp +70 degree F between 5psi and 10 psi boost which is what i was saying in my response to Josh re eatons not being effecient at higher boost temps.

JR1

The link posted from m444 shows an @58hp loss with the supercharger at 10 psi and supercharger speeds at 12,000 rpm's. The point of my reply is that when people post they make very broad statements without actually researching their data first.

Vadim-SoCal

OK, let me see we set up a right track here.

Josh K, you are right. An engine that makes 500 HP to the wheels is making close to 1600 HP. 500HP or roughly a third gets lost in exhaust heat, 500HP or roughly a third gets lost in cooling system, 500HP gets to the wheels and around 100HP in drivetrain losses.

Sorry, but that is how physics of internal combustion engine work.

Yes, it does mean that Buggati Veyron makes around 3000 HP, but only 1000HP at the crank.

Now, back to superchargers. In order to compress air you have to expand a certain amount of power.

Ever filled your bike tires with air through a hand pump?

Now, a bike tire maybe has a volume of around 0.2 cu. ft. Now try to fill an engine that needs over 1000 cubic per minute at 6000 rpm.

John Long 55

1. not that interested, just pointing out that the figures adverstised on Kleemanns site don't correspond to results their customers are getting.

2. Making a turbo suitable for daily driving, are you living in the 80s?

I tune both turbos and superchargers, mainly LS1s and there are both easy to tune with the right equipment.

As for tuning are 2 bar MAP sensors used with Kleemann kits?
Do the installers install the tune supplied with the kit or do they fine tune each engine themselves?

dragonAMG

Exactly... those numbers are from the dyno at the Kleemann HQ, at 6,600 ft.