Need Advice on Adding More Power to HPS SC
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 491
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From: Florida
Don't have a Mercedes right now...
Hi guys,
I always had some questions about SC a naturally aspirated car such a C43 and a C55. Those engines/transmissions/suspension etc are designed from the manufacturer for that particular horsepower.
- Isn't a SC going to mess up the engine and and transmission a lot sooner before its time?
- Isn't it true that the manufacturer will actually reenforce the engine of a SC car such as the C32 to be as reliable as a N/A engine?
- Why didn't they SC the C55 for example? It could have been a better strategy for them since it costs a lot more and it is as fast as the C32! Is it maybe because a supercharged C55 will have too much power for that chassis meaning that it wil be difficoult to hadle?
Take for example the Hartge H50 vs the stock M3 in this test comparison:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...15883&q=Hartge
The Hartge H50 is a great car but it apears that the extra HP makes it hard to handle.
BTW check this video of H50 in the manufacturer's webpage it is quite addictive. I wish that I can find similar test drives for the AMG vehicles.
http://www.hartge.de/video/hartgeh50e.avi
I always had some questions about SC a naturally aspirated car such a C43 and a C55. Those engines/transmissions/suspension etc are designed from the manufacturer for that particular horsepower.
- Isn't a SC going to mess up the engine and and transmission a lot sooner before its time?
- Isn't it true that the manufacturer will actually reenforce the engine of a SC car such as the C32 to be as reliable as a N/A engine?
- Why didn't they SC the C55 for example? It could have been a better strategy for them since it costs a lot more and it is as fast as the C32! Is it maybe because a supercharged C55 will have too much power for that chassis meaning that it wil be difficoult to hadle?
Take for example the Hartge H50 vs the stock M3 in this test comparison:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...15883&q=Hartge
The Hartge H50 is a great car but it apears that the extra HP makes it hard to handle.
BTW check this video of H50 in the manufacturer's webpage it is quite addictive. I wish that I can find similar test drives for the AMG vehicles.
http://www.hartge.de/video/hartgeh50e.avi
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Joined: Mar 2002
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From: The Heights, CA
Tesla Model S
Originally Posted by kchristos
Hi guys,
I always had some questions about SC a naturally aspirated car such a C43 and a C55. Those engines/transmissions/suspension etc are designed from the manufacturer for that particular horsepower.
- Isn't a SC going to mess up the engine and and transmission a lot sooner before its time?
- Isn't it true that the manufacturer will actually reenforce the engine of a SC car such as the C32 to be as reliable as a N/A engine?
- Why didn't they SC the C55 for example? It could have been a better strategy for them since it costs a lot more and it is as fast as the C32! Is it maybe because a supercharged C55 will have too much power for that chassis meaning that it wil be difficoult to hadle?
I always had some questions about SC a naturally aspirated car such a C43 and a C55. Those engines/transmissions/suspension etc are designed from the manufacturer for that particular horsepower.
- Isn't a SC going to mess up the engine and and transmission a lot sooner before its time?
- Isn't it true that the manufacturer will actually reenforce the engine of a SC car such as the C32 to be as reliable as a N/A engine?
- Why didn't they SC the C55 for example? It could have been a better strategy for them since it costs a lot more and it is as fast as the C32! Is it maybe because a supercharged C55 will have too much power for that chassis meaning that it wil be difficoult to hadle?
I'll ask you a question - even if you're an aggressive driver, how often are you actually going to stand on the pedal? My guess is 10-15 percent of the time. The extra power doesn't even get used most of the time, and the small amount of time it actually is used isn't drastically going to shorten the lifespan of a properly maintained car (I'm assuming, of course that the supercharger is problem free and tuned to perfection).
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From: SFV, Ca.
W210, W220, W163, W164, C6
Originally Posted by AMGSC
I got a tip from Richard023 that I should upgrade the SC water and fuel pumps on the HPS unit. What capacity water and fuel pumps do the Kleemanns, Renntechs, Brabus or Carlsson's use? Just curious.
Has anyone installed boost gauges, fuel pressure gauges and AFR meters on their SC'd rides? I know that the boost gauge is important if you are running on 7.5-8lbs of boost but what about AFR and fuel pressure gauges. I'm having these installed next week but I don't if I should go through with it if they don't add any real value.
Has anyone installed boost gauges, fuel pressure gauges and AFR meters on their SC'd rides? I know that the boost gauge is important if you are running on 7.5-8lbs of boost but what about AFR and fuel pressure gauges. I'm having these installed next week but I don't if I should go through with it if they don't add any real value.
TEEL vs Bosch
As for the fuel pump, I ran with the stock FP and installed a KB BAP 20 amp, but at the time I replaced the fuel filter so did the OEM FP to a Bosch 420LPH ( P/N 0580254044), this pump is thicker in Dia. and cannot utilized the OEM FP bracket. With either setup, FP was at a steady 60PSI.
I had a A/F gauge on the vette and removed it, I've never found it to make sense when I'm at WOT. Air/fuel moves around so much you'll never be able to tell if you're leaning out at 6500RPM or if you're leaning out when you let off the throttle at 6800RPM.
The only way I've ever made sense of air/fuel is using my laptop to log RPM vs. Boost vs. Air/fuel through a Zeitronix WB02.
If your game in using a 3 pod pillar, drop a EGT gauge instead.
Thread Starter
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From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
Originally Posted by Richard023
Upgrading would really depend on what hardware you are currently using! The low grade TEEL pump included on my kit was not in my favor, so I opt for a Bosch marine pump that could provide the adequate gpms. Here's what I mean:
So can you tell me the estimated parts and labor to replace both pumps with the ones you're recommending? Thanks in advance for the GREAT advice.
I'll take your advice and get a EGT instead of an AFR meter also.
Last edited by AMGSC; Feb 19, 2006 at 04:02 AM.
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From: SFV, Ca.
W210, W220, W163, W164, C6
Originally Posted by AMGSC
That TEEL pump looks exactly like the one in my car! I'm going to ask HPS to replace it. Does this add any horsepower?
So can you tell me the estimated parts and labor to replace both pumps with the ones you're recommending? Thanks in advance for the GREAT advice.
I'll take your advice and get a EGT instead of an AFR meter also.
So can you tell me the estimated parts and labor to replace both pumps with the ones you're recommending? Thanks in advance for the GREAT advice.
I'll take your advice and get a EGT instead of an AFR meter also.
An efficient air-to-water intercooling system requires a proper heat exchanger assembly & water pump to cool the discharge temperatures. By keeping the air cool, the ignition timing will stay within optimal performance control limits. In my personal opinion, this aspect of their system design wasn't addressed enough by the HPS team. The importance here is not added HP but enduring less heat soak effect.
Before you jump the gun on replacing the parts, speak with HPS if they're keen on assisting with these upgrades. If I recall correctly the Bosch WP was $150 (BTW: The TEEL pump is $30), the Bosch FP is approx. $250. As for labor rates, it varies, perhaps Jim can provide you with a quote.
I only suggested the EGT gauge if you were to use a 3 pod pillar, however the 2 pod boost & FP gauge should provide sufficient monitoring unless you decide to use N20 in the future.
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From: City with Tall buildings!
C43/55,2k11 Volvo S60 T6AWD,2k Audi B5 S4,95 Eagle Talon Tsi AWD 500+awhp
Originally Posted by AMGSC
I got a tip from Richard023 that I should upgrade the SC water and fuel pumps on the HPS unit. What capacity water and fuel pumps do the Kleemanns, Renntechs, Brabus or Carlsson's use? Just curious.
Has anyone installed boost gauges, fuel pressure gauges and AFR meters on their SC'd rides? I know that the boost gauge is important if you are running on 7.5-8lbs of boost but what about AFR and fuel pressure gauges. I'm having these installed next week but I don't if I should go through with it if they don't add any real value.
Has anyone installed boost gauges, fuel pressure gauges and AFR meters on their SC'd rides? I know that the boost gauge is important if you are running on 7.5-8lbs of boost but what about AFR and fuel pressure gauges. I'm having these installed next week but I don't if I should go through with it if they don't add any real value.
Last edited by ProjectC55; Feb 19, 2006 at 10:00 AM.
Thread Starter
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From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
Man...You are a serious tuner! Do you own a shop on the side? I thought Vadim was the only "hands on" expert but I was wrong. You and Richard really know your sh#t. Thanks again.
Thread Starter
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From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
Originally Posted by kchristos
Hi guys,
I always had some questions about SC a naturally aspirated car such a C43 and a C55. Those engines/transmissions/suspension etc are designed from the manufacturer for that particular horsepower.
- Isn't a SC going to mess up the engine and and transmission a lot sooner before its time?
- Isn't it true that the manufacturer will actually reenforce the engine of a SC car such as the C32 to be as reliable as a N/A engine?
- Why didn't they SC the C55 for example? It could have been a better strategy for them since it costs a lot more and it is as fast as the C32! Is it maybe because a supercharged C55 will have too much power for that chassis meaning that it wil be difficoult to hadle?
I always had some questions about SC a naturally aspirated car such a C43 and a C55. Those engines/transmissions/suspension etc are designed from the manufacturer for that particular horsepower.
- Isn't a SC going to mess up the engine and and transmission a lot sooner before its time?
- Isn't it true that the manufacturer will actually reenforce the engine of a SC car such as the C32 to be as reliable as a N/A engine?
- Why didn't they SC the C55 for example? It could have been a better strategy for them since it costs a lot more and it is as fast as the C32! Is it maybe because a supercharged C55 will have too much power for that chassis meaning that it wil be difficoult to hadle?
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Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
Originally Posted by Josh K
so? what's the update?
Am having car retuned and dyno'd at independent shop in next few days. Who do recommend for installation of gauges (boost, fuel pressure, EGT, AFR) on center console or window pillar at reasonable prices?
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Ventura, CA
AMG 55, 335i, Mini Cooper S
Amgsc
Sounds like you are making progress. Sorry to hear about the tranny and the small glitches, you are having.
I will be porting out my intake pipe that goes to my supercharger this week. I'm hoping to get more flow so I won't have to spin the superchager faster. Last week I re-installed the blower, becasue I had a all new rotor and bearings installed. The cars feels much faster and quieter, I'm guessing I have an extra 15whp and an even 5lbs of boost. The Aquamist chemical cooler is next to keep the heat under control, I'm sure it will help because my car has been running incredible with the cold weather lately. The Aquatmist should lower the intake temps by 40-50 degrees.
So far my biggest problems are warped rotors and rear tires only lasting 2 months
I will be headed down to your area next week, maybe a friendly race is needed.
Mario
I will be porting out my intake pipe that goes to my supercharger this week. I'm hoping to get more flow so I won't have to spin the superchager faster. Last week I re-installed the blower, becasue I had a all new rotor and bearings installed. The cars feels much faster and quieter, I'm guessing I have an extra 15whp and an even 5lbs of boost. The Aquamist chemical cooler is next to keep the heat under control, I'm sure it will help because my car has been running incredible with the cold weather lately. The Aquatmist should lower the intake temps by 40-50 degrees.
So far my biggest problems are warped rotors and rear tires only lasting 2 months
I will be headed down to your area next week, maybe a friendly race is needed.
Mario
Last edited by E55Cent; Feb 22, 2006 at 12:00 AM.
Thread Starter
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From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
Originally Posted by E55Cent
I will be porting out my intake pipe that goes to my supercharger this week. I'm hoping to get more flow so I won't have to spin the superchager faster. Last week I re-installed the blower, becasue I had a all new rotor and bearings installed. The cars feels much faster and quieter, I'm guessing I have an extra 15whp and an even 5lbs of boost. The Aquatmist chemical cooler is next to keep the heat under control, if sure it will help because my car has been running incredible with the cold weather lately. The Aquatmist should lower the intake temps by 40-50 degrees.
So far my biggest problems are warped rotors and rear tires only lasting 2 months
I will be headed down to your area next week, maybe a friendly race is needed.
Mario
So far my biggest problems are warped rotors and rear tires only lasting 2 months
I will be headed down to your area next week, maybe a friendly race is needed.
Mario
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From: Ventura, CA
AMG 55, 335i, Mini Cooper S
Originally Posted by AMGSC
Sounds good. I guess I can't port the intake being that it's a Gen II. Does Magnuson warranty the warped rotors and broken bearings? What could be causing your rotor and bearing problems? I heard from Adam that installing aquamist will void my HPS warranty. Is there a chance that Aquamist can hurt the engine or supercharger?
I have only heard good things about Aquamist and other Chemcial cooler kits. It is a simple system that has been around for decades, even used in supercharged 1940 airplanes. I have about 10 friends that are using chemical coolers and the only thing I hear is praise. Three of them stopped using 100 octane gas because the Aquamist solved the detation problems they were having. 100 octane fuel is very expensive if you haven't used it. What about the headers and cams you want, won't those void the HPS warranty? Is HPS going to do the ECU tunning when you get the cams?
Last edited by E55Cent; Feb 22, 2006 at 02:19 AM.
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From: SFV, Ca.
W210, W220, W163, W164, C6
Originally Posted by AMGSC
I heard from Adam that installing aquamist will void my HPS warranty. Is there a chance that Aquamist can hurt the engine or supercharger?
I seem to recall a Magnacharger tech saying that using straight methanol can destroy the rotor coating in due time. If the coating is destroyed then unit gets louder, but more importantly tolerances are lost and pump slips more thus you loose some boost. This is if you spray/inject at inlet. I used Manhattan Oil Top Lube that contains corrosion prevention properties while using methanol. Incidentally, Aquamist does not recommend spraying straight meth.,the seals on the sensor grommets will not last.
Mario - No doubt the Aquamist is a great product, but also look into East Coast Superchargers (ECS) Alky kit, it uses SS pressure lines vs nylon, includes a LED (red to green when it senses pressure in the line), competitve price....overall I'm happier with this kit than the Aquamist!
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Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Ventura, CA
AMG 55, 335i, Mini Cooper S
Originally Posted by Richard023
If you have access to good fuel and the tune is kept in check, why bother running the risk of voiding your HPS warranty. I personally didn't care much for the warranty! Maybe just throw in a bottle of Torco now and then.
I seem to recall a Magnacharger tech saying that using straight methanol can destroy the rotor coating in due time. If the coating is destroyed then unit gets louder, but more importantly tolerances are lost and pump slips more thus you loose some boost. This is if you spray/inject at inlet. I used Manhattan Oil Top Lube that contains corrosion prevention properties while using methanol. Incidentally, Aquamist does not recommend spraying straight meth.,the seals on the sensor grommets will not last.
Mario - No doubt the Aquamist is a great product, but also look into East Coast Superchargers (ECS) Alky kit, it uses SS pressure lines vs nylon, includes a LED (red to green when it senses pressure in the line), competitve price....overall I'm happier with this kit than the Aquamist!
I seem to recall a Magnacharger tech saying that using straight methanol can destroy the rotor coating in due time. If the coating is destroyed then unit gets louder, but more importantly tolerances are lost and pump slips more thus you loose some boost. This is if you spray/inject at inlet. I used Manhattan Oil Top Lube that contains corrosion prevention properties while using methanol. Incidentally, Aquamist does not recommend spraying straight meth.,the seals on the sensor grommets will not last.
Mario - No doubt the Aquamist is a great product, but also look into East Coast Superchargers (ECS) Alky kit, it uses SS pressure lines vs nylon, includes a LED (red to green when it senses pressure in the line), competitve price....overall I'm happier with this kit than the Aquamist!
I was looking at a company called CoolMist, for my porject. My buddy Craig uses this kit on his 500whp SRT-4 (26psi). I will only be spraying with the flow of the air and after the supercharger. I was going to use 10%meth and 90% distilled water in the window washer tank.
I did have a question about the stock window washer tank. Since I have headlight washers on my car. The washer tank has two metal lines running through it from the radiator to keep the water heated. My question is did you have any problems bypassing this? I don't want my meth/distilled mix to be extra heated.
Last edited by E55Cent; Feb 22, 2006 at 05:46 AM.
Member
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From: Redondo Beach
Z06, M3, Mini Cooper S. Sold: C55
Originally Posted by AMGSC
Car feels very strong but got check engine light. 1st time was overload on tranny codes, 2nd time was running too rich on banks 1 and 2 codes 720, 724 I think I recall. On cold mornings car stutters for a split second when accelerating hard into fast lane from FWY onramp. Could be fuel being too rich, could be exhaust getting choked, don't know for sure. They are looking into it. Odd thing about it is that Gas Mileage is incredible at 27.5-28.0 when cruising on FWY for 30-40 miles. Tranny downshifting still not corrected yet. Need to correct to maximize next dyno results.
Am having car retuned and dyno'd at independent shop in next few days. Who do recommend for installation of gauges (boost, fuel pressure, EGT, AFR) on center console or window pillar at reasonable prices?
Am having car retuned and dyno'd at independent shop in next few days. Who do recommend for installation of gauges (boost, fuel pressure, EGT, AFR) on center console or window pillar at reasonable prices?
The exhaust should not be causing the sputterring unless something was drastically clogged. It would only limit the power, if everything is really tuned & running properly.
Also, have you manually verified this MPG reading, or is this what your on board computer is telling you? If it's the OBC, I wouldn't believe it. Larger injectors, the s/c and everything you've had done, will let you cruise by on less throttle & has likely completely thrown out the window the calibration the factory did to estimate fuel mileage. Check it manually to be sure.
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From: City with Tall buildings!
C43/55,2k11 Volvo S60 T6AWD,2k Audi B5 S4,95 Eagle Talon Tsi AWD 500+awhp
Originally Posted by AMGSC
Car feels very strong but got check engine light. 1st time was overload on tranny codes, 2nd time was running too rich on banks 1 and 2 codes 720, 724 I think I recall. On cold mornings car stutters for a split second when accelerating hard into fast lane from FWY onramp. Could be fuel being too rich, could be exhaust getting choked, don't know for sure. They are looking into it. Odd thing about it is that Gas Mileage is incredible at 27.5-28.0 when cruising on FWY for 30-40 miles. Tranny downshifting still not corrected yet. Need to correct to maximize next dyno results.
Am having car retuned and dyno'd at independent shop in next few days. Who do recommend for installation of gauges (boost, fuel pressure, EGT, AFR) on center console or window pillar at reasonable prices?
Am having car retuned and dyno'd at independent shop in next few days. Who do recommend for installation of gauges (boost, fuel pressure, EGT, AFR) on center console or window pillar at reasonable prices?
Check that first!Clean new set of plugs can make a world of a difference.
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From: Ventura, CA
AMG 55, 335i, Mini Cooper S
Originally Posted by rbaker
Also, have you manually verified this MPG reading, or is this what your on board computer is telling you? If it's the OBC, I wouldn't believe it. Larger injectors, the s/c and everything you've had done, will let you cruise by on less throttle & has likely completely thrown out the window the calibration the factory did to estimate fuel mileage. Check it manually to be sure.
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Posts: 9,155
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From: Southern, CA.
V12-Biturbo
Bought an engine today...
Found an outrageous deal on a w220 S500 engine w/49k miles on her also comes w/6month warranty It'll be swapped in this time next month @ Mechtech and we'll see what an S500 (no more S430 bye bye bye....) w/all these new HPS upgrades can put down to the rear wheels 
Motor cost $3000 + my core exchange + install labor @/MT $2200
Totals $5200
Modding value to me priceless, I luv 
HorsePower
Motor cost $3000 + my core exchange + install labor @/MT $2200
Totals $5200
Modding value to me
priceless, I luv HorsePower
Banned
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 960
Likes: 1
From: Socal
06' Clk 500 Cabriolet, 01' CL 55, 00' Clk 430
Originally Posted by thericker55
Found an outrageous deal on a w220 S500 engine w/49k miles on her also comes w/6month warranty It'll be swapped in this time next month @ Mechtech and we'll see what an S500 (no more S430 bye bye bye....) w/all these new HPS upgrades can put down to the rear wheels
Motor cost $3000 + my core exchange + install labor @/MT $2200
Totals $5200
Modding value to me priceless, I luv HorsePower
Motor cost $3000 + my core exchange + install labor @/MT $2200
Totals $5200
Modding value to me
priceless, I luv HorsePowerSome how, I thought you told me, you're getting the 55 engine? That's I asked you why it was so cheap. It mine be just cheaper if you bore and stroke it out.
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From: Southern, CA.
V12-Biturbo
Originally Posted by Clk&Slk
Some how, I thought you told me, you're getting the 55 engine? That's I asked you why it was so cheap. It mine be just cheaper if you bore and stroke it out.
No this will work fine I asked Jim (@ Mcdonalds hehe..) about this and this is by far the better route...
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Ventura, CA
AMG 55, 335i, Mini Cooper S
Originally Posted by thericker55
lol I wish!!
No this will work fine I asked Jim (@ Mcdonalds hehe..) about this and this is by far the better route...
No this will work fine I asked Jim (@ Mcdonalds hehe..) about this and this is by far the better route...
Show down at the O.K. Corral.
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Posts: 9,155
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From: Southern, CA.
V12-Biturbo
Originally Posted by E55Cent
Congrats on the new motor!!! Horsepower is a powerful drug. I will cross my fingers for you that you make mad HP & TQ. Do you think it will be done in time for dyno day? Don't forget the headers since the motor will be out of the car.
Show down at the O.K. Corral.
Show down at the O.K. Corral.
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Posts: 1,810
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From: SFV, Ca.
W210, W220, W163, W164, C6
Originally Posted by E55Cent
Hey Rich,
I was looking at a company called CoolMist, for my porject. My buddy Craig uses this kit on his 500whp SRT-4 (26psi). I will only be spraying with the flow of the air and after the supercharger. I was going to use 10%meth and 90% distilled water in the window washer tank.
I did have a question about the stock window washer tank. Since I have headlight washers on my car. The washer tank has two metal lines running through it from the radiator to keep the water heated. My question is did you have any problems bypassing this? I don't want my meth/distilled mix to be extra heated.
I was looking at a company called CoolMist, for my porject. My buddy Craig uses this kit on his 500whp SRT-4 (26psi). I will only be spraying with the flow of the air and after the supercharger. I was going to use 10%meth and 90% distilled water in the window washer tank.
I did have a question about the stock window washer tank. Since I have headlight washers on my car. The washer tank has two metal lines running through it from the radiator to keep the water heated. My question is did you have any problems bypassing this? I don't want my meth/distilled mix to be extra heated.
HEET (yellow bottle) also works well for mixture, and the dual lines can easily be plugged.Sean - Nice catch on the S500 motor, so I guess the C6 project is put on hold...I do hope in the future you come to your senses and switch over to the
side.
