I've been doing a little poking around with both these charger builders. Thinking of going into the business of building a commercial kit using one of these chargers and loading it with German tuning. These guys have the 2007 files and they are the only ones with the SL65 programs!!! Hardware can be made in China, tuning from Germany and Norway and Charger from either the US or Japan. Is there room for another MB charger maker if the price is 50-60% lower and just as powerful and reliable? I have venture capital from close family sources that can make this happen.

Is it a worthwhile venture? Would anybody be interested with a product like this?

This is just my perspective.
No.

Why?
You seem to be a good guy, but then we read about your HPS debacle. But you still stuck with them. Why choose an inferior product over something that is proven to work reliably?
This speaks tons about a product you may market in the future; that you'll settle for something inferior and keep working on it, even though in the end, it's still inferior.

BTW - what do you mean "the only ones with the SL65 programs"
1) How many people have SL65's... so this helps us how?
2) What about RENNtech? Or are they selling a bootleg SL65 ECU?

There is nothing bootleg about RENNtech and I have spent a good amount of time with the man who tunes RENNtech cars. Its not a fly by night thing and this group AMG talks about is not the only one with SL65 programs. Thats just pure monkey dung. I think RENNtech has the most access to MB ecu's... far more than no name firms. Thats a fact.

According to their International Sales Manager, the company I'm dealing with sells programs to Brabus, Kleemann and Carlsson but not Renntech although they've had negotiations but Renntech writes their own code. They are headquartered in Hamburg but have branches in Norway, Denmark, etc...I cannot say anything more because of Confidentiality and Non-Disclosure agreements.

When all is said and done. Those who work hard for their money will appreciate someone trying to make MB Chargers more affordable yet reliable. What happened to American Ingenuity, Creativity and Capitalizim? Yes I learned how difficult it can be be but why should MB owners have to pay 2-5 times more for a Supercharger Kit just because it is so difficult to remap the ECU. If the code can be cracked and we can get a kit that puts out real power and reliability for prices the domestic and japanese imports are getting than everybody should be pleased unless you are independently wealthy.

AMGSC, I say if your confident and you can deliver what you say you should do it no matter what anyone on this forum says. Dont bother with getting opinions because from the sound of your confidence your product and pricing is what will sell your product. YOU CAN DO IT! I my self was wondering why everything for this car from the aftermarket was so over priced. I know that these products are no different that most after market tunning items out there.

Damn straight!

It got screwed over with lies, cheaters, and ego.

I'm not trying to down on your project, it's just when you say stuff that is questionable which kills your rep.

Remapping the ECU or TCM will not help much. A supercharger works on making mechanical boost. If you're not a mechanic, and don't know how to design the system correctly, then your kit will just end up like the HPS gen2 kit, an unreliable POS. Did Jessie Diakis' programming help much on your gen2 kit? Nope. Why people rely on ECU "tuning" to solve their problems is beyond me. Josh R's and Mario's car runs fine on stock ECU programming. HPS tried to compete with Kleeman by copying their design and failed. I'm sure people would jump at the chance to get a kit from people like Hartmut, who actually know what they're doing since they are car mechanics themselves. People do not pay 2-5 times more for a supercharger kit for the ECU, they pay for a kit that will run reliably without unnecessary software changes. Case in point, look at Catapult's Kleemanized C55; he did not have ECU software installed with his Kleeman supercharger and headers. ECU tuning is a joke if you think it will fix a problem with the supercharger kit. I don't care if you have access to SL65 ECU map data, etc. It is a totally different car and engine.

I admit that HPS made quite a few mistakes and were unprofessional in many regards and I am the first to admit it because I was the victim. But what is it that you don't believe??? Magnusson MP122 High Helix, German Tuner that sells to Brabus, Kleemann and Carlsonn and also BMW. Ever heard of NEUSPEED who are one of their exclusive distributers? You cannot get me to say anymore. That's it. I'm not falling for it. Doubt me but unless you are a blind follower or someone who is trying to justify their prices because
you bought them, then you would want someone to pursue this.

I spoke personally with the Engineerng Director at Magnusson and he asked me how many pounds of boost the HPS kit was making. Josh R would be the first to admit that he and I both witnessed 7.5lbs because he was the one holding the meter and stepping on the gas pedal. If the boost has been measured then don't tell me it cannot create any power. It's the cooling and the tuning that are the key to unlocking the power and that's comes straight from the Tech Heads of Magnusson. Does Josh R know more than them????

Has Magnusson even installed their MP122h on a benz before, nope. Josh R has a lot more experience in that regard. This argument is pointless. Over 1000 posts and 23,000 views and this thread has gone nowhere but show that HPS gen2 kit sucks and their service is worse.

Boost is not just boost. CFM's/efficiency also plays a role in creating maximum power. I know that it makes a huge difference in the turbo world. I would assume the same with SC's.

I would agree with Pshek, ECU tuning is more like FINE tunning. My car runs great and I have beaten on it for 15000 miles with zero problems. I'm sure if I had ECU tunning then I could squeeze a little more out of the car maybe 20hp. As a hole my car starts, idles, races, and cruises like a stock E55 just with a 100hp/100tq more. Even Kleemann sells their kit less ECU tunning. ECU tunning with a superchargers on these cars is just dessert, but not the main course. If all you care about it cake then all that happens is you will get fat.
Robert if you do this kit, make sure you start completely over, do not salavge anything from the HPS II kit.

Lets get something clear ... mercedes is constantly upgrading the programming in thier ECUs. Not everything they do is beneficial to tuners. As a matter of fact, they ARE making it much more difficult to tune. So many different systems rely on data in the ECU. This is not just about air/fuel, timing etc. Just 2005 to 2006 a bunch of changes were made.
Of course if you, or your customers, don't care about "Check Engine" lights ...

So I have to respectfully disagree with you Pshek and E55cent. Of course you need a decent kit to begin with ... (DUH) Also with the older Mercedes I can see how you would feel ECU tuning isn't a key part.

EXACTLY!!! You hit it on the head. That's what I've heard from EVERY expert I consulted with in trying to get my HPS kit straightened out. The older cars don't seem to have a problem with just using a Fuel Modulator Unit (FMU) or some other similar device that can trick the computer into releasing more fuel to balance out the new AFR.

Even Kleemann advised me to get the ECU version of the kit for my 2006 model. ECU remapping is without a doubt necessary to get any power.

btw..Has Catapult ever posted a pre-ECU dyno with a post-ECU dyno? I'm sure it would make a world of difference. When I first got my car back from HPS without chip tuning, my car felt stronger too and was running smoothly with NO CELS but it only made +20rwhp when I first dyno'd it at HOP.

After Jessie tuned it, I re-dynoed it HOP on April 15th Dyno day and everybody there witnessed a healthy gain from ECU tuning alone of +63rwhp and Jessie did this by just Trial and Error remapping! Chip tunng makes a HUGE difference.

Since I already own an HPS kit, one of my strategies is to buy a Kleemann, Renntech,Carlsson and even OEM used kit and have a team of experts take them apart and attempt reverse engineer it without violating any patents or intellectual property rights. The team would avoid any of the mistakes made by these makers and also make improvments where possible based on what other non-Mercedes kits do well such as the intake manifold design to maximize aire flow. Perhaps we can mimic the stock intake manifold design since it is already has a very efficient air flow and has a two-stage design.

I am not necessarily bound by a Roots-type blower since everywhere I read that the twin-screw is efficient but is more expensive to produce because of the close rotor tolerances which can also make it less reliable.

Now you are talking about "reverse engineering" a blower kit from the people that have already made them work. Fancy that. You want to take the working part (which you openly say you don’t want to pay for) and copy it, outsource production to a 3rd world nation, and sell it for less. This is quite possibly the funniest twist yet. I need a axe to cut this irony! So is this about equal to a cheap knock off Rolex watch you see in China?

The fact that you say the stock intake and heads flow well shows you really don’t know much about these motors. The stock head flows very poorly. 3 valves per cylinder is far from ideal and was only used for quick warm up of cats for European emissions laws. MB thought they could not make the M119 style quad cam motor work given the new laws and went with a fairly low tech 3 valve design. When all other automakers found a way to continue using 3 valves per cylinder mb realized they made a real mistake. A 5 L V8 3 valve engine made 302 hp but a 5 L M119 made 322-350 (and that engine has been in production since 1989). If the stock kit flows so well why does everyone make new air-box's to increase flow? Why does a port and polish yield some serious gains?

If I had a 60k C-Class, 90k E-Class, 110k S-class etc the last thing I would do is send it to a company trying to copy the real professional tuners. We did not cut corners in buying the car (we don’t drive fords here) so I doubt we want to save 5k and get a fly by night blower kit installed.

In my take you are trying to build a part no one wants. Your ideas seem questionable, you are working with a blower kit that has shown its ability to add no power at all, and you also fail to realize that the 3 valve motor is now out of production.

So the car you want to tune is not being made anymore and you want to build a kit? Most car tuning is done on new vehicles because new car customers have the cash to buy upgrades. Not many people buying a used C55 or C32 for 32k have the cash or desire to buy a stack of mods. A few customers will exist and therefore I see a failing business plan here. You need to have an existing company capable of working on future designs not trying to play catch up with the existing tuners. RENNtech, Kleemann, and Brabus already mastered the M113 motor and they now are moving on to the new quad cam motors. They spent the last 9 years mastering this 3 valve motor and I trust their work.

Save some time, money, pain, suffering, and effort and just send your car to RENNtech, Kleemann or Brabus and get it done correctly.

Economies of scale. When you only sell a few kits you have very few customers over which to allocate your R&D costs and the parts you sell tend to be very costly. Adding volume will lower your per unit cost to customers but this market has a very limited customer base. MB parts are not so expensive because people are trying to screw us. Its is because they need to make some money and have very few customers to sell thier products to. Its not like making a honda civic cold air intake where you can sell hundreds of thousands of units.

In this business of tuning 75% of what makes a tuner successful is his reputation, past experience, knowledge, and longevity. I don’t see the kit discussed here as being able to succeed in making a customer feel comfortable that is its biggest flaw -- other than the fact that the blower seems very poor in both quality and design.

Good arguments against doing this but I was targeting the used MB market since they will be less likely to spend over $20K in mods. I agree that the newer models with their new 4-valve per clylinder engine would force a complete redesign of the hardware kits for whatever type of blower (twin-screw or roots) you bolt on. Besides, not many new MB owners unlike myself is willing to take a risk and void their warranties immediately after purchasing a brand new car. You made good points here regardless and I will take them into consideration before jumping in with both feet. That's what makes this forum so valuable. People like you with knowledge to support your opinions.

It's been a while but I've got my car back with all the new mods listed installed except for the colder T-Stat, upgraded pump and Methanol Injection kit. I'm going to get these done tomorrow and will dyno and post results here on Friday night. I am hoping for over 425rwhp this time. I think the Sprintbooster solved my downshifting problem (4th to 5th) that was robbing me of precious power on the dyno. The Denso IK22's and Magnecor wires my friend installed for me last Saturday made a HUGE difference in performance.

The custom ECU will also be reprogrammed by a new tuner if there is time this Wed-Fri.

As you know, I am one of the few guys on this forum that always posts the actual dyno results. Good or Bad.

I Hope Jesse is NOT The Tuner! See what HPS has done...lol

from the hps site....

Specials:

Used 2nd generation intake supercharger systems available. Contact us for more details.


Note: HPS performance testing is conducted under laboratory controlled conditions. The performance values quoted apply to certain models only and not all models will achieve the same results. Actual customer vehicle performance values may be higher or lower than stated due to individual customers' vehicle condition and other factors beyond HPS' control. Unauthorized vehicle modifications may also affect performance.


Due to supplier issues, HPS can no longer continue to work with Speed Innovation and/or Jessie. HPS will not be held accountable or responsible for any tuning issues from this company/individual on any HPS vehicles. This will include but not limitd to the following: Any internal or external engine damage including the entire drive-train, transmission related issues, failed vehicle mass air flow meter sensor including related emissions control system components, ECU computer issues (Hardware & software related anomalies), and/or other related components. If a HPS customer choose to use this company and/or individual even after reading this statement you are at your own risk. You also release/waive all your rights and/or claims against HPS. You also void any remaining factory warranty from HPS and are on your own. This information is written to protect HPS and a friendly reminder.

Its just lots of entertainment reading all of this. I think that the Aftermarket upgrades by Kleeman, Brabus etc are all over priced but like the one guy said, There is not a large supply of consumers to get these products down in price. This is all custom work on a limited scope of vehicles in comparison to the big picture. That in a nutshell drives the prices up. Also once you spend that kind of time on a quality product for a quality car you want to be paid well for it. No one wants to work for free. Also on the sales end of things, if one cheapens the product than the public feels that it must be of lower quality. Its just a subconcious thing. One of the GOLDEN rules of sales, Never cheapen the product. Also if your buying Mercedes, BMW etc you are interested in quality right off the start, so like the other guy said who wants a discounted part on your quality car? Reliability and performance are the only two factors here that should even be in consideration. If you can get more HP out of ECU and Supercharger than the other guys for the same money then that might be an avenue for consideration.
Anyway, just my Opinion looking from the outside. Thanks

Bottom line is STAY AWAY from HPS's stuff! Like they say "You do it wrong,you do it LONG"! I've heard better things about their first gen kit but for the 5.5L motors the kit has to be modded. If I had 11k to burn I'd go Kleeman!

Don't go cheap with the S/C and end having to spend the same KLEEMAN $$

Although I have signed a confidentiality agreement when I was contracted to HPS and plan to stick with it. However I have been softspoken and have watched these forums for a long time and plan to be correct and watch my words.


I think is funny how they still have the power gains created by ecu tuning from a certain company. They still claim the numbers over the phone yet without the software it wont happen in my opinion.

Also based on his additional warnings about warranty does that mean that the rest of the holders of the product that are using the tuning successfully will be denied of warranty because the tuning makes the vehical run correctly.

Based on the ecu tuning numbers and the fact they still use those wouldnt that be false advert.

Last but not least of course you would ask everyone who is interested in purchasing the product to stay away from me, im the only one that can make it work.

Oh theres more and more

He in short will have a surprise coming

I have forwarned this individual about his emails which are derogatory and agressive in nature. Not only have I warned this individual about his method of " Harassment " but I have asked him to stop emailing me as the contract was terminated due to unforseen hardware issues. I have in writing where I have asked this individual to stop the emails but he doesnt listen.

Unfortunately for him and fortunate for me was his last email to me.

OPEN SHUT CASE PER SE


P.S. Based on the content on HPS site which is copied now in case he takes it off. There will up for grabs a new case for those who are attorneys and are interested.( Libel,Slander etc

Good luck on the cases AF and Sean if you read this please contact me I will discuss it with you then