c32used

I need recommendations on good track tires cause I plan to buy some used set for a track sessions at Road America next Spring time. Also any advise about anything else I may need.


Thanks in advance!

PC Valkyrie

I can only say that Michelin Pilot Sport 2's are much better than the Pirelli P Zero Rosso's that came stock with the C55 in terms of grip. However, I do find that the PS2's have a "soft" or "squishy" feel to them on initial turn in......maybe it's because of the soft shoulders on the tires. I can't comment about wet weather traction because I haven't tracked in the rain yet, but the PS2's are supposed to be one of the better tires out there in the wet.

I can't personally comment about any other tires as I've only tried those 2 tires on my car on the track. From reviews I've read, the Goodyear Eagle F1 GS D3 may be even a better tire.

In terms of other things to bring to the track, I recommend a helmut, tire gauge, and a torque wrench to tighten up your bolts as they can loosen a bit with hard driving. Don't know if the C32 has this, but the C55 has a electric tire pump (that you plug into the lighter socket) so that you can inflate your tires easily if you need more tire pressure.

Moviela

Never thought I'd suggest these, but the Sumitomo racing tires are quite good. Ran some on a Porsche at Fontucky (California Speedway) and was impressed. The passenger rim HTR Z III seem quite good too. Tire rack has them.

If you really want to be on the track, don't use air in your tires. Nitrogen is the way to go, and bring a bottle with you to adjust pressure. Also remember once the tires have been up to racing speed (and temperature) four times, it is time to toss them, even if the tread looks marvelous.

c32used

Thanks for the info...will look into it further.

c32used

I heard about the benefits to Nitrogen.

splinter

Road America is an outstanding venue…one of the finest tracks in North America. It’ll be a great day!

Myriad choices for tires. Do you have a dedicated set of wheels to fit for the occasion? If your outing is anything like I’ve experienced, you’ll consume the tires during the event. We are allowed to participate in five 30 minute sessions. That’s a lot of miles approaching (or at) the limits of adhesion. If you a going to run in the novice group, don’t worry about the tires. Learn the line and enjoy the experience.

Perhaps most importantly, ensure your brakes have fresh fluid and good pads of sufficient thickness. You will be standing on them harder than you ever have. When you have to haul ‘er down from 130 MPH to negotiate a 50 MPH turn, brakes are the most important pieces on the car. Fathom doing 90 back-to-back dragstrip runs while decelerating as quickly as possible after each, continuously…

The engine, transmission, and differential should have fresh fluids as well. While you are renewing them is an ideal opportunity to verify the torque on all critical fasteners. The peace of mind from doing so will enable you to truly enjoy your track day.

Even though you have the entire winter season to prepare, start now. Please share with us how it is going as the event approaches.

c32used

I never tracked a car but all you guys are making me super excited over this Possible event in Spring or late Summer...I will definitely run with the novice group cause I really need to learn the lines used by the experienced.

MRAMG1

Hey there Used!

Okay, being an advid tracker for over twenty years, here is what I have seen, and know.

First thing with tires. I have used BFG, Goodyear, Kuhmos, Hoosier, and Brigestone. My favorite is the new Brigestone 050 PP's which I just used at Beaverun back in September. For a street tire, it was AMAZING. I even passed a few R tire equiped cars The worst of them has been the BFG. ALL of them that I have used scalloped deeply on the outside edge. Something with their rubber compound, mold, etc, does not like to be pushed to the limits, so in my case NO THANK YOU for ANY BFG product on a road coruse, in a street tire.

Now for R tires, ANY of them will decrrease you lap times TREMONDOUSLY! Keep in mind there is a price to pay, ie they ALL wear out fast, some don't even last a day at the track, like Hoosiers. If you really want to go faster, I would recomend the Kuhnos as they last long, are VERY predictable and are reasonably cheap. One more point about ALL R tiress, since they let you go FASTER around corners, they also give you LESS warning at the limit. What I mean is if you are a rookie, I would NOT recomend ANY R tire for your first event. Get some practice, and if you like it, go get some R's for next year/season. I have seen MANY rookies spin/loose it on the track reling on the R's increased grip. Not good for a newbie, IMHO.

Stick with a treet tire until you know your cars limits!

Now for the nitrogen BS! NO team in Grass roots Motorsports uses it, PERIOD! I raced for Brigestone in the early 90's in Formula Fords, and we NEVER used it. ALL the current SCCA champs, DO NOT USE IT. Save it for the F1 and CART, as NO ONE with minimal amount of experience will EVER see a difference with a street car. YES it does not expand like air under temperature, but the gain for a street car IS NOTHING!

Oh well, sorry for the long post and PM me if you want my set up for our toys that I had some really good success with!

See yeah

MRAMG1

[QUOTE=splinter;2506345]Road America is an outstanding venue…one of the finest tracks in North America. It’ll be a great day!

Perhaps most importantly, ensure your brakes have fresh fluid and good pads of sufficient thickness. You will be standing on them harder than you ever have. When you have to haul ‘er down from 130 MPH to negotiate a 50 MPH turn, brakes are the most important pieces on the car. Fathom doing 90 back-to-back dragstrip runs while decelerating as quickly as possible after each, continuously…

The engine, transmission, and differential should have fresh fluids as well. While you are renewing them is an ideal opportunity to verify the torque on all critical fasteners. The peace of mind from doing so will enable you to truly enjoy your track day.

Hey splinter:

Good advice on the fluid changes

Don't forget that AFTER the event, if you faded your brakes, ie pedal to the floor like I did trying to keep up with a pesky Z06, stupid me, CHANGE the fluid as soon as posiable. Anytime you boil the fluid, YOU HAVE to get rid of it ASAP.

While your at it, the other fluids could use changing as well, since they are bound to see some temps that are NEVER incountered on the street. CHEAP insurance for longevity IMHO.

See yeah

Nuvolari

I have to say wrong on both accounts.

The value in nitrogen is that tire pressures vary less from cold to hot. If however you gather all your data from regular air then it is very easy to predict what your hot tire pressures will be off of regular air. There is nothing wrong in using regular air just be consistent and measure your tire pressures when you come off the track. In addition to this tire pressures will not always be equal. Tracks that are predominantly right for instance will work the left front harder than the right front. As a result it will be necessary to make adjustment to the COLD tire pressures. The goal is to have the hot tire pressures (and more importantly temperatures if you are being all high tech) equal (pressures left to right and temps all around equal).

As for 4 heat cycles and the tires are junk this is total nonsense. Heat cycles do deteriorate tires but they are by no means junk either. With regards to tires I have probably raced on everything under the sun and think very highly of the Toyo RA1 (as used in the Speed GT and Touring Championships). They are excellent down to the cords and very good in both dry and wet conditions. Just my .02.

One last tip is TAKE A LONG COOL DOWN LAP. Once the chequered flag has flown take a very steady cool down lap trying to get as much air on your tires and brakes as possible. Just coast and take your time. The difference to brake life is staggering and you will need it.

Best of luck.

Fifth Ring

Don't get R compounds just yet. It's a big investment and if you're not using them frequently, just not worth it.

The advice above is excellent. Have fun.

PS: I'm going to christen my 1988 944 tomorrow and Sunday at Virginia International Raceway. WARNING: Once you try and fall in love with tracking your car, the commitment will never end.

MRAMG1

Okay Nuvolari, this is pretty good, but a slight correction is needed.

There is NO gain in having eqaul tire pressure left to right. In fact on a course that has MORE right turns, the left tire will ALWAYS need MORE air. You are correct about tire temps, this you DO WANT to be equal all the way around, IF POSIABLE. On a street car with limited adjustability, this is NEVER, okay VERY RARELY, posiable. So you play with air pressure, left rigth, front to back, to try and adjust to OVER heating tires, understeer, oversteer, etc, etc,

In my case I found, at beaverun mostly right handers, Left front, about 38 cold, right front 35, both rear around 30. This gave me MY BEST tire temps, and a pretty neutral car. I could have and should have pumped the left front up to about 40, as it was rolling over pretty hard in turn 2-3. However, I didn't want to run any harder as I was already fading my brakes chasing after R typr tires/cars.

Oh yeah, 1000% dead on about a cool down lap, THIS IS MANDATORY FOR ALL CARS!!!. As the man said, just try and coast around, NOT braking, and let everything cool off.

See yeah

Nuvolari

I think that we are actually in agreement here but maybe my original post was a little misunderstood or maybe I was not clear. Lemme have another shot at it.

There is a direct relation between tire temperature and tire pressure. Provided that a tire is properly heated (ie. not spinning them to increase the surface temp which keeps the carcass temp low) the pressure will increase as the tire temperature increases. This also is in relation to tires that are within a certain window of tire pressure therefore highly overinflated or greatly underinflated tires do not adhere to this rule (track tires should never be in this range anyways). As such if you come off the track and one tire is hotter than the other, that tire will also have a higher temperature. We are talking same car, track, setup, etc. Let's not get into suspension geometry and settings cause we'll get lost. Trying to achieve equal temperatures is a good basic starting point and without fancy measuring there is a simple way to do this:

1. Set a base cold tire pressure
2. Run 4-5 good laps
3. Bleed tires to a hot target tire pressure
4. Do the rest of the session
5. Bleed again to the hot target tire pressure.
6. Let the tires cool as much as possible and record the cold pressures and atmospheric temperature

If you return to the same track under similar conditions and set your recorded cold pressures you will find that the hot tire pressures (and temperatures as a result) will be almost dead on every time. This is the scientific approach that has worked well for me over the years and is adopted by many seasoned lappers and racers.

MRAMG1

+1

I was just pointing out that differnt pressures, can and are a good thing my friend!!

See yeah

Fifth Ring

Well said. There's no "correct" cold temp because you never know how hot the tires will get, and that will determine your real operating pressure. I think people tend to overfill tires for the track. A heavy car like the C32 might actually gain 10 lbs. of pressure as tires heat up. Operating temp of 40- 42 lbs seems optimum.

Addicted2Speed

I'm using Michelin Pilot Cups on my supercharged SLK55, which come with Porsche GT3/RS and are great for track. BTW, these are the only R-compound tires that come in 19's. If I was on 18's, I would got with Toyo Proxes RA1 or Yokohoma A048 (these were on my lotus elise, great tires!). The only problem with all these R-compound tires is that they only last around 10k miles max.

AWDman

jeezzzz the guy's track day is 1/2 yr away and we're just ooozing advice.... so lemme pitch in!

not all R compunds are the same. like addicted2 speed i would advise the yoke A048 as this is an intermediate type tire not a full blown R compund like hoosier R6 or BFG R1s or hankook z214 etc.....also, the shape of the tire complements our camber challenged C32s. search my old threads i have pictures. call tire rack they will give you good advice. ask for jim holloway.

for 19" R compounds you have the mitchlin cup sports as well as some sizes in the new toyo r888.

ps2, as good a street tire as they are, suck at the track. the soft side wall just rolls over. i'm on khumo SPTs for $144@ and they are more precise than the PS2s. and definitely not as cushy.


target track tire pressure depends on the specific tire. with yoke A048s i was 30-32 psi hot fronts. hankook z214 were 34-36 hot.

YOU MUST CHANGE YOUR BRAKE FLUID! do not take the chance with stock fluid.....i boild mine on my first track event. flushing is an easy 2 person job, get a few bottles of motul 600, do not get ATE BLUE. if you boil the fluid - you will have to back off running hard, or may have to come off the track to allow brakes to cool- and lose precious track time. or worse, you may have pedal sink to floor just before a corner and find yourself beyond your comfort zone. DO THIS ONE ITEM IF YOU DON'T DO ANYTHING ELSE.

stock pads may work, but any number of higer performace pads are available....seach the forum.....there are threads going back 4 yrs from track junkies.

Fifth, good luck with the 944. give us a report after....

we must plan an event next yr- get the c32s together. fifth? MRamg?splinter?

AWDman

o man so true....you stop drooling at ferraris and start thinking radicals are sweet rides.

splinter

Couple of vids from ChicagoX at Road America…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHXY1U4pM9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td7wAI7j_80

ScottW911

Still love the lap that he passes the M6 and M3! Still hate the gay music that covers the engine sounds.

AWDman

most of the lines of the drivers seem bad. too far away from the apexes. in 2nd vid the black rx8 was pushing; tracking all way out to the edge.

kudos for tracking the e55 tho.

and...brakes are the 1st thing to let you down on a stock car.

MB_Forever

I had Michelin PS 2 when I had my C32s and they were just awsome. I drag raced the car at least 12 times and tracked it 3 times and overall the performance and feel of the tires are just amazing......

MRAMG1

Hey there MB_Forever:

Time to think outside the box my friend. The michelins are WAY over priced for what you get. Heck, my yok's E100 were a better tire. Quit believing all the hype and go get some REAL good tires, Brigestone 050 PP's come to mind, GS-D3's are another BETTER choice.

Don't mean to be rude my friend, I just HATE michelin tires as they really do SU_K on the track, IE road course compared to MANY other tires. I had them on my M, and after 1 year, THEY WERE TERRIABLE!!!!

Oh well, to each his own. PLEASE friends don't let friends buy MICHELINS!!!

See yeah

OPM

If you go with a responsible club you will be put into Novice run group. It’s not your choice. Chances are you will be in the Novice run group for a few events. However, that does not mean anything. There are no speed limits. You can go as fast as you like/able. DO NOT buy r-comps. You are about 2+years away from needing them. At this point they’ll do more harm than good. BTW, I did my first event on all-season tires and it was the lack of driving skills and not the tires that was slowing me down.


If you like I can sell you a used set of RT-615 in 225/45/17. They will fit perfectly on your winter wheels you got from discount tires. I’ll give them up cheap and it is way more tire than you’ll need all next season. It should last you entire season too.

Finally, IMHO you should not worry too much about your fluids or pads for your first event. If you never changed them you definitely should do it, but if fluids and pads are fresh you should be ok. This season I took almost brand-new C55 to a 2-day event. Yes I was babying the car and I guarantee my brake technique is better than yours, but still I had zero problems.

MB_Forever

I agree with you my friend: the Michellin Pilot Sport 1s were really crappy tires especially after the first 6 months. They start out good and really grippy, but lose performance fairly quickly.

The pilot sport 2s are a different story though. When I had them, they were really great on the street and on the track. I put 10,000 miles of pure track and drag racing and aggressive driving on them while my car was modded to 340+ whp and over 350 wtq and I still had more than half tread life left. Also, they were very quite on the road and extra grippy on the track. I honostly liked them a lot.

By the way, the GS-D3's are a really good choice. I've also tried them and enjoyed them tremendously......