MB_Forever

This is a very informative thread for the different motor oil comparisons and tests out there. And since I'm personally researching different oil brands as well, I thought to throw this one out there:
My relative living in Germany told me that most of the Mercedes Benz in Germany use Pentosin Pentosynth 5W-40.
Has anybody ever tried or even heard about this oil brand? Whether good or bad?

MRAMG1

No, Just tired of the same thread OVER, and OVER, and OVER again.



See yeah

AWDman

guys sorry if my last post was a bit abrupt.

i'm at work today and kinda busy all day. let me respond later this evening.

Tectite.Metal

ummmm yaaaaaaa read the first sentence of the original post.. I have researched the other threads about this topic and some are a little older and hoping maybe some new info has come out.

MBforever..... how is your search for an alternate oil coming along

Fifth Ring

It's a tough call. A "thicker" oil probably clings better at shut-down and protects during the first few seconds of start-up. But at the same time, it's going to be slower to reach remote, narrow oil passages. My view on "thickness" is that it may matter to a turbo car where the turbo gets fed crankcase oil via small tubes. If the oil is too viscous, it will be slower to get there.

But keep in mind that the C32 is anything but exotic. It's a SOHC, 3 valve engine running at relatively low RPMs.

Personally, I would use Mobil1 0W40 if I could reliably find it. I've used Amsoil European as well. It's a pain getting Amsoil via mail, so I tend to buy up M1 0W40 when I see it.

I'm not going to say that my experience proves M1 or Amsoil oil to be good or bad, since I've only got 55,000 miles on the car, and it would probably take 150,000 miles to evidence any oil-related failures.

MRAMG1

Hey Fifth:

Your right on about viscosity my friend. Thinner is ALWAYS better, even on a dyno, plus start up, etc, etc. The ONLY time you need a thicker oil is under EXTREME driving conditions, like a 30 minute track time. Our cars WOULD not and DO no benefit from heavy weight oil for drag racing or daily comute. Unless you reside in Death valley, then MAYBE. Just keep in mind that synthetic oil weight REALLY means very little, except on the COLD side, during intial start up. ALL synthetic oils can SAFELY maintain oil temps that VERY few people will ever reach. Again, I defer to open track events here, on A HOT day.

See yeah my friend

PS: As far as visual difference after 150,00 miles, you won't see any difference from Mobil 1 to amsoil to Purple whatever.

MB_Forever

We have a C230 Kompressor company car that we're doing the tests on. However, it is very hard for me or my friend to really determine which oil is better. What we're doing is using one brand of oil right before an oval track "heavy duty" session. So far, we've used Mobile 1, Royal Purple, and Redline. In April we'll try Amsoil and Pentosin.

We haven't really felt any noticeable difference between the three oils we've tested . I wish an independent research company would do an intensive study comparing performance of the top 5 oil brands. Most of the studies I've seen online are done by the manufacturers themselves, and each of them claim that their products are better

AWDman

ok disregard my prior shouting

i'm no engineer but will lay out what i have surmised re SM oil. these are my concerns but i think they should apply to this forum in general. (we are are hard drivin bunch of sods who also like to tweek the hell out of our rides)

ok. API mandated that oils have less zinc and phoshorus so that cat covertors could be made smaller and last until 120,000 miles. as marcus pointed out this may have been gradual i thought it happened in 2005 or 2006

why i'm concerned it that zddp is the ingredient that prevents metal to metal contact in hi pressure stressed areas- should the oil film fail. some reading material here http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

on a related note an oils viscosity has something to do with it's film strenght but it's not a direct correlation. film strength is what's needed in hi pressure areas like rod bearing, cam bucket interfaces.

fifth pointed out this was a low tech sohc motor running at lor rpm...partially true but we're still extracting 400+ hp.......the rod bearings are under quite a bit more pressure that designed to withstand....lets say the oil film degraded to point of metal to metal conact. An SM oil may not have enough ZDDP to save you spinning that bearing. with our sohc and rocker arrangement i wouldnt be suprised if valve spring tensions were relatively high in order to prevent valve float due to mechanical inertia. a situation like this means higher pressure in valvetrain contact areas. the fact that this is a relatively unsophisticated motor doesn't mean that there are no high pressure bearing surfaces (bearing area, weight of pistons/rods all factor in when you think about it)

I prefer not to take a chance especially with my modified motors- like c32 and my suki. Also the mini is older design of the type directly affected by SM oils (flat tappets) except i have roller rockers installed....still..
i want to run my c32 on oil it was originally designed for SL or SJ, with 1300 ppm ZDDP. So what i i clog my cats at 100,000 miles?

I called redline today and had a good 15 min chat with Dave in tech. he advised my that redline does not submit their oils to the API for certifying. he stated their oils have about 1200/1300 zinc /phosphorus through ZDDP.
I'm not sure why that sheet quotes their oil as SM. Perhaps someone would like to give them a call?

RP oils are not SM rated per their website's data. they don't publish their additive package.

all of my vehicles are out of warranty save the new jeep i just did an oil change and used recommened oil castrol gtx 5w20.

read mobils comment re 15w50 http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...l_1_FAQs.aspx#
this not an SM oil and has adquate levels of antiwear.

Redline stated that their ester based oils have very high film strenght. my intention is to flush all my cars in spring replacing with redline. i already use their 75w90 in my ferraris tranny and i'm a big fan of MTL and MT90 for manual trannys.

I read elsewhere that mobils 0w40 shears down to a 0w30 after a few thousand miles. in general the best oil to use is the one that has the minimum amount of viscosity enhancers. i don't think there's big difference between 5 wt and 0 wt for cold startup, especially for a daily driven car that retains an oil film internally from frequent driving.

i want to type more but have to help my son with homework. let me know your thoughts.

Tectite.Metal

WOW very good informative info.. Hey did you call a RP tech, I would but you know your sh**. Furthermore, I am sure your questioning would be much better than mine to attain answers that we are looking for..

nice work...

MarcusF

If I'm mistaken, it's because both Royal Purple's 5W40 labels and their website both say the product is SM rated. Here's the link to their website:

http://www.royalpurple.com/motor-oil-pp.html

In the mutigrade properties section it says "SM".

As for valvetrain wear, it’s not something that concerns me. These engines run roller rockers on the cam. Spring pressures don’t cause flat cams with this design. People with a flat tappets and race springs have something to think about, but one of the advantages of rollers is the cam is safe. Rollers (whether lifters or rockers) allow for much wilder cam profiles and the corresponding springs (small block chevys are a good example). That’s not to say race springs won’t wear the valve seat out, but oil has no bearing on valve seat life. Also, when the M113/112 was introduced, one of the things the press kit touted was the fact that these engines have low mass valve trains. The lower the mass, the lower the spring pressure because you don’t have to worry about inertia causing the spring to bounce off the seat at high RPMS. Also, these engines don't see much in the way of high RPMs, they only rev to 6.

I can’t say whether the M113/112 rod bearings are undersized. Typically rod bearings themselves are not the problem. The problem with most bottoms ends is the rod bolt stretches. When that happens, the excess clearance is what causes the bearing wear. This is especially true on 3.2 Carreras with their 9mm rod bolts. Spinning rod bearings may be more common with the M112’,s but I’ve never heard of anyone spinning a rod bearing on an M113. Of course, I haven't read any data to back that up. They could be spinning bearings like a 400 Pontiac for all I know.

AWDman

Marcus- thank you. lots of good info in your post.

yes i stand (partially) corrected per the RP site only 5w40 is SM, the rest are SL or other spec.

find it suprising that the m133 was touted as having low mass valvetrain. i would have thought anything to do with rockers would have more inertia. (vs dohc cam on bucket arrangements).

the ferrari f355 has a problem with valve guide wear in early yrs; not all cars are affected. anything i do with oil to help stave off a potential problem will be worth it. my zuki spins to 9000 rpm. the c32 makes a good 20% more power than stock.....the ferrari, zuki and mini are long term ownership prospects, figure i'd like to protect them best i can.........even the c32 has gone 4.5 yrs and 65,000 miles with me already......and i may very well end up keeping it a few more years as the car is a blast to drive.......

i guess the thing here guys is to pick an oil based on how you use your car. i'm fine with mobil 1 0w40 during winter. for summer and my driving season i will go a bit thicker say 10w40 in a non SM rated oil.

thanks again marcus.

MarcusF

First, let me say that I haven't weighed or done any testing on the rockers in a Mercedes-Benz. I'm talking about rockers in general. Assuming we’re talking about valve float, "in general", the rocker doesn’t have much of an effect on inertia. Modern rockers have what’s known as a "low moment of inertia". Saying it that way makes it sound like I have a PhD in Mechanical Engineering. Truth be told, it's just a fancy way of saying they're center weighted. One of the benefits of having the majority of the weight over the rocker shaft is that the rocker changes direction very easily. When the roller tip passes over the nose of the cam (the highest point on the lobe), if there's any float (valve train separation where the valve is not in indirect contact with the cam), it's due to inertia caused by the weight of the valve itself and the spring’s inability to control it. That inability is usually due to old springs or ignoring redline. On the other side, when the rocker comes down off the ramp and hits the base circle, it won't bounce there either. Any bounce would be due to worn springs as well. Either that, or the springs don't match the cam profile and/or valve weight. That's why they're sold in sets. At this point, this all makes sense. Except somebody's going to post, "um, what about the weight associated with the hydraulic lifter?" I'm going to have to refer those guys to the first two sentences of this post.

(Note: In my early post, #35, there's a typo. Inertia can cause the VALVE to bounce off the seat at high RPMS, not the SPRING. If a spring is bouncing off the valve seat, something horrific, if not impossible, has happened)

For your 355, I'd have to defer to another Ferrari owner. There is a guy by the name of Ali Haas. He's on the Board of Directors of the Ferrari Owners Club, the Florida division. He's a surgeon who's done independent studies on oil viscosities. Why mention he's a surgeon? Because his biochemistry degree may have helped with his work on oil. Anyway, I don't personally know him. He's in Florida, I'm in California. He's a surgeon, I hope never to need surgery. But despite the fact that I don't agree with some things that he's written, he does seem to know about oils and what's important to you - Ferraris! According to the Florida FOC website, he's got a 575 Maranello, used to own a 550 Maranello, has raced Formula Super Vee, and is his own Lamborghini, Ferrari, and Mercedes mechanic. I'm guessing his credentials are what you're looking for.

Interesting about the 355 valve guides. Porsche has had the same problem. First in the 1984 through 1989 3.2 liter Carreras, with the later years having fewer problems. Then it started again with the 1989 – 1998 3.6's. Some cars have bad guides, others don't. To be honest, I always thought it was due to heat AND bad guides AND running the wrong oil. My line of thinking was the later 3.2's had better cooling than the earlier ones. If that's true in your case, then you may have 40 fantastic guides, and those other 355 guys will just have to order their oil by the pallet.

For your F car, Ali can be reached at ahaas@focfloridaregion.com

IHTH

MRAMG1

Gentlemen:

Lets get a life here! Why in the heck are you ALL trying to re-invent the wheel, okay oil. MOBIL 1 WORKS. PERIOD! It is what MB recomends, it works in EVERY race car I have ever owned, driven or HEARD about. Why in the heck do you guys keep insisting on spending MORE money on other synethetics for NO RETURN JUST USE ANY SYNETHETIC YOU WANT AND CALL IT A DAY FOR PETES SAKE

Lets all agree to have our favorites and move along. Please

See yeah

PS: I QUIT this thread

AWDman

you can't...i tried already can't be done.


i've got 17k on my 355 and all good so far. all i can do is run good oil and don't abuse the motor. if the issue rears its ugly head down the line well i'll just have to deal with it. part and parcel of ownership.

correction re my c32. it's of 9/2001 build date i bought starmarked in 2003 with 5k miles.

MB_Forever

Actually I'm glad this thread was started. The discussion here was very informative. And the deeper it gets, the more I like it

I think it is safe to conclude that for everyday driving, the new Mobile 1 0W-40 is fine, but for heavy duty track use, a better oil is needed if you really want to keep the internals in good condition. I think even Mobile 1 doesn't use 0w-40 in their racing cars......

Tectite.Metal

thanks ... I am glad I started this thread too..lolol

BryanW203

No doubt. You could put always save oil in these cars and they would be just fine, you couldn't get 13k miles on an oil change, but for the majority of society it would work just fine.

Yes the people agressivly driving their cars all day everyday need to stick with Mobil 1.

lkfoster

I can't say much about the other oils, but I've run Mobil1 for years now with excellent results. But I'm a bit confused as to which Mobil1 to run in my "new" C55. The manual says 0W-40, but on the next page it lists viscosities vs. temperatures.

Do I have to run 0W-40 or can I use the chart?

Where can you find 0W-40 Mobil1?

AWDman

well we can't really use racing oils due to lack of detergent packages (in general)..........but mobil did have a fantastic product about 3 yrs back, i ran it in my honda s2000 (ap1) before it was discontinued. i should have stocked up on a few cases but by the time i got around to ordering all leftover stock was gone...

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...cing_0W-30.asp

JDC55

This is totally incorrect MB cannot void your warranty for not using a RECOMMENDED oil in your car. It is against federal law.

Under this federal statute, a manufacturer, who issues a warranty on your motor vehicle, is prohibited from requiring you to use a particular brand of product, unless such item is provided, free of charge, under your warranty or unless the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) waives this prohibition against the manufacturer. DONMAR is unaware of any exemption or waiver granted by the FTC to any motor vehicle manufacturer, which pertains to parts, accessories or styling products.

MarcusF

Yes and no. Mercedes-Benz doesn't say you have to use a specific brand, IE a product produced by a particular company. However, they do "recommend" that owners use oil which meets a certain "specification". Mercedes-Benz supplies a list of oils that meet the specification. Since oils change, the list is regularly updated. Years ago, M113/M112 failures were linked to owners using non-synthetic oil. Mercedes-Benz ate the cost of replacement engines and changed the wording in the Service Booklet to clearly state the specification. For those who fail to use motor oil that meets the "recommended" spec, Mercedes-Benz clearly states resulting engine damage is, and I quote, "not covered by the Mercedes-Benz Limited Warranty".

It appears to be a fair policy. If Mercedes-Benz is going to issue a warranty for a certain product, they should be able to have some say in the treatment of that product. In the 1980's, Hollywood Sports Cars (a now closed Ferrari dealer) used to GIVE away AGIP to new car buyers during the warranty period. During the new car orientation, the sales rep would make sure new owners clearly understood that NOTHING ELSE was supposed to go in the sump of that car.

C43AMG

My mechanic uses it in my 420SEL,so far ,so good.

c55asleep?

Go ahead and try it my friend. Then let me know.

moosejaw

And let me add, yes you are correct they cannot void your warranty.You would be referring to the Moss-Magnusson Law,.However MBUSA will certainly put up a massive court fight and unless you have deep pockets and have the absolute need to prove a point against corporate america, you would be wasting your time. It would be smart to use the recommended oil regardless.

Tectite.Metal

Hey guys/gals just curious on how much Mobil 0w40 costs in and around your area. The one quart bottle...