oil, oil and more oil
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Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Canada
c32 AMG
oil, oil and more oil
So I am sure this topic has been beaten to death buttttttttt i have some questions that you members could shine some light on.
I am considering an OIL brand change....YES i know MB wants us to use MOBIL 1 0w40 for our AMG's.. However I have heard that MOBIL has changed their formula that makes it easier on the environment, thus however losing a lot of its integrity to protect our AMG engines like the original did.
Is this true and whats up with this??
Other oils I am thinking of using are:
Liquid Moly high tech 5W40..
and really considering Royal Purple 5w40 european formula. Has anyone had any horror stories with ROYAL. ANy engine siezures etc... I do understand Royal does not meet MB standards but so many others are using this stuff including BMW's.. I somtimes think MB has a deal with Mobile and vise versa to keep buisness within themselves.
This test even though its old, is very interesting..........
http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf
and ofcourse finally the MB list:
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html
I am considering an OIL brand change....YES i know MB wants us to use MOBIL 1 0w40 for our AMG's.. However I have heard that MOBIL has changed their formula that makes it easier on the environment, thus however losing a lot of its integrity to protect our AMG engines like the original did.
Is this true and whats up with this??
Other oils I am thinking of using are:
Liquid Moly high tech 5W40..
and really considering Royal Purple 5w40 european formula. Has anyone had any horror stories with ROYAL. ANy engine siezures etc... I do understand Royal does not meet MB standards but so many others are using this stuff including BMW's.. I somtimes think MB has a deal with Mobile and vise versa to keep buisness within themselves.
This test even though its old, is very interesting..........
http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf
and ofcourse finally the MB list:
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html
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From: MILFORD,CT
E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
i posted on this before thanks to a tip from another fourm member. search "SM oil" and "ZDDP" and you should pull up some info.
mobil 1 0w40 now has 1000 ppm zddp vs 1300....other sm rated oils have 800. note mobil 15w50 has "full strenght" ZDDP at 1300 or so. i don't see harm in 15w50 from spring through fall. otherwise i'd suggest redline 5w40. certain cycle oils have high zddp and phosphorus enough if you mix one or two quarts with mobil 1 0w40 (1:4 ratio) you will have the "old" levels of anti wear additives.
mobil 1 0w40 now has 1000 ppm zddp vs 1300....other sm rated oils have 800. note mobil 15w50 has "full strenght" ZDDP at 1300 or so. i don't see harm in 15w50 from spring through fall. otherwise i'd suggest redline 5w40. certain cycle oils have high zddp and phosphorus enough if you mix one or two quarts with mobil 1 0w40 (1:4 ratio) you will have the "old" levels of anti wear additives.
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From: Corona, CA
03 g35 coupe...........02 c32 Sold
i think you would do more damage to your engine mixing and matching different kinds of oils for your engine other then the one certified with mercedes.
Even if the new formula did increase wear compared to the previous formula. You will probably buy a different car or trade in before you see any effects on the engine.
AMG engines are built very well and oil technology has advanced pretty far.
Even if the new formula did increase wear compared to the previous formula. You will probably buy a different car or trade in before you see any effects on the engine.
AMG engines are built very well and oil technology has advanced pretty far.
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Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Miami
Bicycle
i think you would do more damage to your engine mixing and matching different kinds of oils for your engine other then the one certified with mercedes.
Even if the new formula did increase wear compared to the previous formula. You will probably buy a different car or trade in before you see any effects on the engine.
AMG engines are built very well and oil technology has advanced pretty far.
Even if the new formula did increase wear compared to the previous formula. You will probably buy a different car or trade in before you see any effects on the engine.
AMG engines are built very well and oil technology has advanced pretty far.
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From: Tampa, Florida
06 SL65 / 97 993tt /11 Suburban/ 2012 GTR (AMG è la mia Famiglia la Bestia è la mia protezione)
FYI...I had to top off my oil @ MB 2 weeks ago...
and they topped it of with 5W-40 Mobil Synthetic. I asked for 0W-40 when I walked in to buy some more (as backup stock since that is what I read in the manual as recommended) but they said they didn't carry it anymore (?) and that they were now using the 5W-40. No real explanation to me and it was just he parts guy telling me this so...
I'll ask my SA on Monday why the change though just to satisfy my personal curiosity.
I'll ask my SA on Monday why the change though just to satisfy my personal curiosity.
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Joined: Oct 2007
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
AMG and MB have a real problem here.
The Factory Approved Service Products booklet is updated on a near monthly basis. Yet, Mobile 1 0W-40 still remains the only approved motor oil for AMG vehicles afetr 2005. AND, dealerships continue to use a different oil.
I personally believe that there are a range of oils that will meet the needs of the engine. Some better, some worse than the 0W-40 Mobile 1.
I just don't get this BS with the dealers. If they say it is okay, then show me the fount of wisdom they seem to be reading from. Basically they are guessing. Just like educated members of this forum.
MB needs to be clean on this, otherwise why trust them on anything?
The Factory Approved Service Products booklet is updated on a near monthly basis. Yet, Mobile 1 0W-40 still remains the only approved motor oil for AMG vehicles afetr 2005. AND, dealerships continue to use a different oil.
I personally believe that there are a range of oils that will meet the needs of the engine. Some better, some worse than the 0W-40 Mobile 1.
I just don't get this BS with the dealers. If they say it is okay, then show me the fount of wisdom they seem to be reading from. Basically they are guessing. Just like educated members of this forum.
MB needs to be clean on this, otherwise why trust them on anything?
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From: Philadelphia, PA
2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect MB to test EVERY oil on the market - from their standpoint, as a benefit to their customers, they test and approve a dozen or so brands/weights of oils, and say "please use these, we've approved them so we're pretty confident they'll work without any issues"
Frankly, while I'm not a chemical engineer or anything, I tend to think that if you use Mobil 1 0w-40, or any of the ultra-premium oils (i.e. AMSOIL, Redline, Royal Purple, etc.) in 5w-30 or 5w-40, you'd probably be fine. I think most agree that frequent filter and oil changes and not using "conventional oil" is most important.
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Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Canada
c32 AMG
That's a bit extreme, don't you think? Anyway, I agree w/ you that 0w-40 Mobil 1 probably isn't the "best" premium oil that can be used in MBs, but seems to be consistently available and fairly reasonably priced. As far as MB being "clear" (which is what I assume you meant, but just a typo) on oils, I will readily admit that I have no idea what MB's testing and approval process is. Do the oil manufacturers have to submit their products to MB, or will MB randomly choose different oils for testing? I don't know.
I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect MB to test EVERY oil on the market - from their standpoint, as a benefit to their customers, they test and approve a dozen or so brands/weights of oils, and say "please use these, we've approved them so we're pretty confident they'll work without any issues"
Frankly, while I'm not a chemical engineer or anything, I tend to think that if you use Mobil 1 0w-40, or any of the ultra-premium oils (i.e. AMSOIL, Redline, Royal Purple, etc.) in 5w-30 or 5w-40, you'd probably be fine. I think most agree that frequent filter and oil changes and not using "conventional oil" is most important.
I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect MB to test EVERY oil on the market - from their standpoint, as a benefit to their customers, they test and approve a dozen or so brands/weights of oils, and say "please use these, we've approved them so we're pretty confident they'll work without any issues"
Frankly, while I'm not a chemical engineer or anything, I tend to think that if you use Mobil 1 0w-40, or any of the ultra-premium oils (i.e. AMSOIL, Redline, Royal Purple, etc.) in 5w-30 or 5w-40, you'd probably be fine. I think most agree that frequent filter and oil changes and not using "conventional oil" is most important.
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From: SCV SoCal
2002 CLK430
I've read the "oil test" article before. I'm not sure the test equipment has a lot in common with the average internal combustion engine. For one thing, I don't see where the oil is heated. The only time oil in an engine is at room temperature is when the engine has been turned off for a few hours.
But enough of their test. I think everyone should pour whatever they want in their crankcase. Those who think one brand is better than another will find out soon enough. For me, the most important concern is oil thickness. Unlike many oil companies, ExxonMobil lists their numbers. The "correct" thickness for just about every car on the planet is somewhere between 10 and 15 cS. At 40° C, Mobil1 0W40 is 78.3 cS. That's too thick, which is one of the reasons mechanics ask that you keep the revs down on a cold engine. The good news is, oil reaches normal operating temperature rather quickly. At normal operating temperature, about 100° C, Mobil1 0W40 is 14 cS. At 40° C, Mobil1 5W40 is 102 cS, dropping to 14.8 cS at operating temperature. Those investigating other options may wish to find out how thick an alternative brand is at 40° and 100° C.
Lastly, a number of factors go into deciding which oils a dealership stocks. I wouldn't use 5W40 if 0W40 is available.
But enough of their test. I think everyone should pour whatever they want in their crankcase. Those who think one brand is better than another will find out soon enough. For me, the most important concern is oil thickness. Unlike many oil companies, ExxonMobil lists their numbers. The "correct" thickness for just about every car on the planet is somewhere between 10 and 15 cS. At 40° C, Mobil1 0W40 is 78.3 cS. That's too thick, which is one of the reasons mechanics ask that you keep the revs down on a cold engine. The good news is, oil reaches normal operating temperature rather quickly. At normal operating temperature, about 100° C, Mobil1 0W40 is 14 cS. At 40° C, Mobil1 5W40 is 102 cS, dropping to 14.8 cS at operating temperature. Those investigating other options may wish to find out how thick an alternative brand is at 40° and 100° C.
Lastly, a number of factors go into deciding which oils a dealership stocks. I wouldn't use 5W40 if 0W40 is available.
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1996 C36 AMG
Don't be fooled for a second... its ALL about $$$
Mobil1 has a contract w/ Mercedes just like BMW has a contract with Castrol. Of course they are going to recommend the company they have contractual obligations with. Its nothing more than a business agreement. Yes its Mobil1 is a pretty good oil compared to alot of other crappier oils out there but it is not even close to the best oil.
Mobil1 < Redline < Royal Purple.
Walk into any race shop or any serious performance shop and there is only ONE brand oil on the shelf... Royal purple. it is the king of oils and is the only one that has been independently dyno proven to death to actually make HP, reduce emissions, improve gas mileage. The rest are all snake oils by comparison.
Mobil1 has a contract w/ Mercedes just like BMW has a contract with Castrol. Of course they are going to recommend the company they have contractual obligations with. Its nothing more than a business agreement. Yes its Mobil1 is a pretty good oil compared to alot of other crappier oils out there but it is not even close to the best oil.
Mobil1 < Redline < Royal Purple.
Walk into any race shop or any serious performance shop and there is only ONE brand oil on the shelf... Royal purple. it is the king of oils and is the only one that has been independently dyno proven to death to actually make HP, reduce emissions, improve gas mileage. The rest are all snake oils by comparison.
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From: SCV SoCal
2002 CLK430
Fast Fours and Rotaries is an Australian magazine. They performed several tests on a number of oils, including Royal Purple. Two tests stand out - wear and power.
I still think everyone should use whatever they. Poor decisions will result in more parts cars for the rest of us.
- In the wear test, RP was ranked 10th out of 11.
- They did a HP test. The test consisted of three dyno runs per oil. They charted the power figures in 500 rpm increments. The top three were Amsoil, Castrol, and Mobil1.
I still think everyone should use whatever they. Poor decisions will result in more parts cars for the rest of us.
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From: MILFORD,CT
E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
any oil i use needs to be the pre SM formula, this has worked for me for many years.
i don't think you guys are researching this issue. SM oils are formulated to not clog the smaller cat convertors that are being put on cars now.
every mobil 1 oils' formula waas changed early last year (i think) except 15w50. mobil 1 oils like 10w30 has 800 ppm ZDDP instead of 1200 as in the old formula. 0w40 has 1000ppm ZDDP.
redlines formula has not changed.
i am just not comfortable with the new levels of anti wear in SM rated oils.
i don't think you guys are researching this issue. SM oils are formulated to not clog the smaller cat convertors that are being put on cars now.
every mobil 1 oils' formula waas changed early last year (i think) except 15w50. mobil 1 oils like 10w30 has 800 ppm ZDDP instead of 1200 as in the old formula. 0w40 has 1000ppm ZDDP.
redlines formula has not changed.
i am just not comfortable with the new levels of anti wear in SM rated oils.
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From: MILFORD,CT
E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Canada
c32 AMG
This is what I have heard as well.. Mobile changed their formula and wow just last year. So the members that are committed to Mobil 1 are now being mislead..In addition many MB dealers, don't even know which grade of oil should be going into which MB model.
I know Mobil 1 was always a good product but what about now..hummm.. I would love to see some dyno tests with their new formula, it would be interesting how they rank now..
I know Mobil 1 was always a good product but what about now..hummm.. I would love to see some dyno tests with their new formula, it would be interesting how they rank now..
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From: NJ
2009 SL63 AMG
Never tried Royal Purple, but have heard nothing buy positive feedback about their product. Have Mobil 1 in there right now, no complaints with it, runs fine in even sub-freezing temperatures. Previously used AMSOIL, ran marginally better in colder temperatures.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: MILFORD,CT
E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
This is what I have heard as well.. Mobile changed their formula and wow just last year. So the members that are committed to Mobil 1 are now being mislead..In addition many MB dealers, don't even know which grade of oil should be going into which MB model.
I know Mobil 1 was always a good product but what about now..hummm.. I would love to see some dyno tests with their new formula, it would be interesting how they rank now..
I know Mobil 1 was always a good product but what about now..hummm.. I would love to see some dyno tests with their new formula, it would be interesting how they rank now..
it's nothing to do with dyno.......but wear protection when youre running hard, under load, hi rpms...
i'm not even sure if the conventional wear test will reveal the deficiencies in the SM formula.
guys are still posting without spending a few minutes doing some reseach.
i run track days.....i am NO WAY IN HELL PUTTING SM OIL IN MY CAR..... you good fellers do as you please. i'm done shouting and done posting to this thread.
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From: PA
S600, GL450, GLC 43
it's nothing to do with dyno.......but wear protection when youre running hard, under load, hi rpms...
i'm not even sure if the conventional wear test will reveal the deficiencies in the SM formula.
guys are still posting without spending a few minutes doing some reseach.
i run track days.....i am NO WAY IN HELL PUTTING SM OIL IN MY CAR..... you good fellers do as you please. i'm done shouting and done posting to this thread.
i'm not even sure if the conventional wear test will reveal the deficiencies in the SM formula.
guys are still posting without spending a few minutes doing some reseach.
i run track days.....i am NO WAY IN HELL PUTTING SM OIL IN MY CAR..... you good fellers do as you please. i'm done shouting and done posting to this thread.
I have tracked cars for over 20 years, and everyone, YES I SAID EVERYONE uses Mobil 1 in my raceing comunity. Buy what you want, beleive in even worse, but Mobil 1 Works, PERIOD. Oh yeah, and its cheaper then the others to boot.
See yeah
Last edited by MRAMG1; Jan 28, 2008 at 10:03 AM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Canada
c32 AMG
... or are you agreeing that this thread sucks cause some members are justing trying to attain some good information from you pros..Anyways also wondering if anyone has ever called Royal Purple head office and asked them why they are not on the MB list..would like to hear their response...
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 784
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From: Miami
Bicycle
Hey how cool, we have engineers now all of a sudden!! Btw if you f!!k up your engine and go back to the dealer to get warranty and they test the oil in a lab and its something different than what they recommend g/l on getting your engine repaired. Thats if its still under warranty. Imop.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: SCV SoCal
2002 CLK430
it's nothing to do with dyno.......but wear protection when youre running hard, under load, hi rpms...
i'm not even sure if the conventional wear test will reveal the deficiencies in the SM formula.
guys are still posting without spending a few minutes doing some reseach.
i run track days.....i am NO WAY IN HELL PUTTING SM OIL IN MY CAR..... you good fellers do as you please. i'm done shouting and done posting to this thread.
i'm not even sure if the conventional wear test will reveal the deficiencies in the SM formula.
guys are still posting without spending a few minutes doing some reseach.
i run track days.....i am NO WAY IN HELL PUTTING SM OIL IN MY CAR..... you good fellers do as you please. i'm done shouting and done posting to this thread.
I've done research. Hmm. Some people are recommending RP. Royal Purple 5W20, 5W30, and 5W40 are all SM rated. But you didn't say RP. In the first response you said Red Line 5W40.
Looking at Red Line’s spec page, the 5W40 that you recommended is SM rated.
How is it that you're saying the SM rating is what makes the oil bad, yet the oil you're recommending has an SM rating? BTW, API changed the spec to SM in November of 2004. If the specification is so bad, where are the legions of blown engines?
Lets look at the zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, which is what you're upset about. Yes, the levels of zinc have been reduced. They’ve been gradually reduced since the early 1990’s (SG rated oils). Organic zinc compounds are used as anti-wear additives. However, the ONLY time the zinc in your oil comes into play is when there is actual metal-to-metal contact within your engine. Under what conditions do you have metal to metal contact? That would be "cold start", right? Every other time, there’s a layer of oil between moving parts, right? Isn't cold start and OIL THICKNESS what I posted about yesterday? Look at the viscosity raing of the Red Line 5W40 you recommended. It's above 15 cS at operating temperature, isn't it? Now look at the rating at 40° C. Compared to Mobil1 0W40, would that result in more, or less, metal to metal contact during a cold start?
Lastly, if you want zinc, you don’t have to use the SM rated RP oil. You can pick up some Mechanics Brand Engine Tune Up, K Mart Super Oil Treatment, and STP Engine Treatment With XEP2. Those are all zinc additives.
I'm not trying to upset you, I'm just trying to explain in a logical fashion why I feel the way I do. I'd like to hear your response to what I've laid out.
Last edited by MarcusF; Jan 28, 2008 at 01:51 AM.
