A turning point in Mercedes tuning...Performance Supercharger Pulley
03-18-2008, 08:53 PM
#126
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C32 AMG
Personally I am eager to find out some concrete results on this as it is quite fasinating.
My only worry is that if anything were to go wrong, the typical MB stealership fix for anything supercharger related is to replace the whole damn thing at 2k a pop...
Eager to see the pics.....
My only worry is that if anything were to go wrong, the typical MB stealership fix for anything supercharger related is to replace the whole damn thing at 2k a pop...
Eager to see the pics.....
03-18-2008, 09:24 PM
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W211 E55
03-19-2008, 06:24 PM
#130
Hi Ted. Yes, this is false. The new sc pulley works identical to the stock piece. In fact, the pulley is only bolted on. Its even easier to change than most other sc pulleys that require a puller. The biggest "reason" was belt slip. ..The problem with that argument is that belt slip is prevalent in all sc applications. There is a difference between acceptable belt slip and gross belt slip. Some stock C32s have complained about belt slip. We see belt slip in crank pulley applications. There will be some slip in the sc pulley application. But none of the slip is above a threshold that prevents the car from making power. As I just mentioned in the last post, I "slipped" my way to 530rwhp in my Cobra. If there was gross belt slip, I would not be releasing the piece. Hell, this is why some companies make cog pulley setups. Because its about the only way you will eliminate belt slip completely. Whether its a belt wrap kit, larger idlers to create more belt wrap, or just using a crank pulley, none of these keep belt slip from occurring. They all create belt slip, its just a matter of how much.
You know there is an electromagnetic clutch in almost every vehicle, its the ac compressor...Its not magical in anyway. When I release pictures, I will show an exploded view of the piece, and how it works. Everyone is going to slap their head and say, wow, it is that simple...its a pulley attached to a plate (armature) that moves. When current is run through the magnet, the plate is pulled into the magnet, and engages the pulley. Thats it. When the current is stopped, it releases the plate. There has never been any engagement issue with the plate from the first version to the last.
You know there is an electromagnetic clutch in almost every vehicle, its the ac compressor...Its not magical in anyway. When I release pictures, I will show an exploded view of the piece, and how it works. Everyone is going to slap their head and say, wow, it is that simple...its a pulley attached to a plate (armature) that moves. When current is run through the magnet, the plate is pulled into the magnet, and engages the pulley. Thats it. When the current is stopped, it releases the plate. There has never been any engagement issue with the plate from the first version to the last.
.........As far as belt slippage is concerned, it may be somewhat of a bigger issue with a smaller s/c pulley than a larger crank pulley because of smaller area for belt contact in the former compared to the later. But if belt slippage is the only issue then there are ways to work around it. In my Kleemann application, I have had to upgrade from a 6 rib belt system to an 8 rib belt system in orde to cure belt slippage issues that resulted in belt shreading.
.........The AMG V6K and V8K are a bit different in that they have two separate belts. One 6 rib and one 8 rib. The 6 rib system drivess the accessories and the 8 rib system drives the crank and s/c. This in part, explains why using a larger crank pulley has worked out well for the AMG V8K and V6K. Unlike the single belt Kleemann system, using a larger crank pulley in an AMG V8k and V6K does not overdrive your accessories including your a/c compressor, power steering pump, etc. These sytems are therefore isolated and not affected by using even a huge crank pulley like ASP or LET. Based on my experience from tinkering with my G55 (two belt system) and my W210 Kleemann (one belt system), I can say MB did a fantastic job with the design of the AMGV8K and by extension the V6K. My point essentially is that a larger crank pulley in the AMG V8k and the V6k may be every bit as good as a smkaller s/c pulley because the accessories are isolated from boost.
Ted
03-19-2008, 07:04 PM
#131
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C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
Lets just clear this up...
Lets keep this discussion about the C32, because that is what our pulley is designed for.
The C32 has one belt. That belt drives everything. If you put a large crank pulley in the system, you will be overdriving everything. The accessories are not isolated on a C32. As far as I know, Evosport is the only company that addressed this issue by providing multiple pulleys to underdrive accessories back to stock speeds. That means that cars running a large crank pulley are overdriving most of their accessories (Unless you have the ODPS).
This is why the SC Pulley is ideal. Everything runs at stock speeds, just as they should. You only overdrive one piece, the supercharger. The C32 already has an 8-rib belt, which helps with belt slip.
All SC cars slip belts. My stock C32 belt slips, especially after repetitive hard driving. Crank pulley cars have belt slip as well. Our SC Pulley has belt slip. Unless there is a cog system in place, belt slip exists, period.
Lets keep this discussion about the C32, because that is what our pulley is designed for.
The C32 has one belt. That belt drives everything. If you put a large crank pulley in the system, you will be overdriving everything. The accessories are not isolated on a C32. As far as I know, Evosport is the only company that addressed this issue by providing multiple pulleys to underdrive accessories back to stock speeds. That means that cars running a large crank pulley are overdriving most of their accessories (Unless you have the ODPS).
This is why the SC Pulley is ideal. Everything runs at stock speeds, just as they should. You only overdrive one piece, the supercharger. The C32 already has an 8-rib belt, which helps with belt slip.
All SC cars slip belts. My stock C32 belt slips, especially after repetitive hard driving. Crank pulley cars have belt slip as well. Our SC Pulley has belt slip. Unless there is a cog system in place, belt slip exists, period.
03-19-2008, 09:32 PM
#132
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.........The AMG V6K and V8K are a bit different in that they have two separate belts. One 6 rib and one 8 rib. The 6 rib system drivess the accessories and the 8 rib system drives the crank and s/c. This in part, explains why using a larger crank pulley has worked out well for the AMG V8K and V6K.......
........using a larger crank pulley in an AMG V8k and V6K does not overdrive your accessories including your a/c compressor, power steering pump, etc. These sytems are therefore isolated and not affected by using even a huge crank pulley like ASP or LET....... .......My point essentially is that a larger crank pulley in the AMG V8k and the V6k may be every bit as good as a smkaller s/c pulley because the accessories are isolated from boost.Ted
........using a larger crank pulley in an AMG V8k and V6K does not overdrive your accessories including your a/c compressor, power steering pump, etc. These sytems are therefore isolated and not affected by using even a huge crank pulley like ASP or LET....... .......My point essentially is that a larger crank pulley in the AMG V8k and the V6k may be every bit as good as a smkaller s/c pulley because the accessories are isolated from boost.Ted
The image below from the W203 STAR Service DVD shows it clearly.
One can see that there is ONE belt.
The belt has 8 grooves.
This belt drives ALL accessories.
It follows that any significant increase in crank pulley diameter that results in changing supercharger pulley speed will also alter accessory pulley speed.
Of course, that's not true if an 'ODPS-like system' is used, like those offered whereby smaller pulleys are used in conjunction with the larger crank pulley.
Last edited by boohooramblers; 03-19-2008 at 11:09 PM.
03-20-2008, 01:27 AM
#133
Lets just clear this up...
Lets keep this discussion about the C32, because that is what our pulley is designed for.
The C32 has one belt. That belt drives everything. If you put a large crank pulley in the system, you will be overdriving everything. The accessories are not isolated on a C32. As far as I know, Evosport is the only company that addressed this issue by providing multiple pulleys to underdrive accessories back to stock speeds. That means that cars running a large crank pulley are overdriving most of their accessories (Unless you have the ODPS).
This is why the SC Pulley is ideal. Everything runs at stock speeds, just as they should. You only overdrive one piece, the supercharger. The C32 already has an 8-rib belt, which helps with belt slip.
All SC cars slip belts. My stock C32 belt slips, especially after repetitive hard driving. Crank pulley cars have belt slip as well. Our SC Pulley has belt slip. Unless there is a cog system in place, belt slip exists, period.
Lets keep this discussion about the C32, because that is what our pulley is designed for.
The C32 has one belt. That belt drives everything. If you put a large crank pulley in the system, you will be overdriving everything. The accessories are not isolated on a C32. As far as I know, Evosport is the only company that addressed this issue by providing multiple pulleys to underdrive accessories back to stock speeds. That means that cars running a large crank pulley are overdriving most of their accessories (Unless you have the ODPS).
This is why the SC Pulley is ideal. Everything runs at stock speeds, just as they should. You only overdrive one piece, the supercharger. The C32 already has an 8-rib belt, which helps with belt slip.
All SC cars slip belts. My stock C32 belt slips, especially after repetitive hard driving. Crank pulley cars have belt slip as well. Our SC Pulley has belt slip. Unless there is a cog system in place, belt slip exists, period.
.........You are right and wrong about belt slippage. You are correct in saying that both larger crank pulleys and smaller s/c pulleys can cause belt slippage. You are also right in pointing out that it is the degree, not just the mere presence of belt slippage that is the problem.
.........what you are not stating is that unlike with larger crank pulley applications, a particularly important cause of belt slippage in smaller s/c pulley applications is the resultant smaller contact area of the belt relative to the pulley as you decrease s/c pulley size. Of course it all depends on how small you go with the s/c pulley. You have more margin to play with when using a larger crank pulley than with a smaller s/c pulley as far as belt slippage is concerned. The problem is that not many supercharged cars are as well designed with two belts as the AMG V8K and as a result you overdrive your accessories. With my Kleemann set up, as I decrease s/c belt diameter by 0.5mm belt slippage and resultant belt shreading gets worse. Understand that I am a layman and never set out to discover this. It just so happened that I was having this problem as I was doing my project and did not understand it.....until I started working backwords. This led me to use larger diameter belt (going from 6 to 8 rib) to resolve the problem. All in all since the C32 has a one belt system like the Kleemann and the s/c clutch rumor is false, a smaller s/c pulley makes sense. This is not as much the case with a say a W211 E55. Keeping that in mind, I then do not understand why this has not been done for C32 owners. Those of us with who have one belt systems ala Kleemann having been playing around with smaller s/c pulleys for years.
Ted
Last edited by Ted Baldwin; 03-20-2008 at 01:30 AM.
03-22-2008, 12:25 PM
#135
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2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
After speaking with Brandon I support the smaller SC pulley. In fact, I am going to put my smaller 65" Kleemann SC pulley on. If you look at the diagram above, you will see that the alternator pully is only 1.75" in diameter and the belt does a complee 180 degree wrap around it.
The belt shredding on my car was more the result of possibly the Sprinbooster or just poor design of the HPS kit. Any smaller pulley that does not exceed a 10mm reduction in diameter should be fine according to several experts I spoke to. The standard C32 SC pulley is 76mm dia.
My smaller pulley should add around another 2-3 lbs of boost which I will need to make up for the lost boost after the installation of Kleemann cams, headers, cats, resonator removal and upcoming X-pipe, hollowed out muffler exhaust system.
Does anyone know if Eisseman or SuperSprint are going to make an exhaust kit for the C55?
The belt shredding on my car was more the result of possibly the Sprinbooster or just poor design of the HPS kit. Any smaller pulley that does not exceed a 10mm reduction in diameter should be fine according to several experts I spoke to. The standard C32 SC pulley is 76mm dia.
My smaller pulley should add around another 2-3 lbs of boost which I will need to make up for the lost boost after the installation of Kleemann cams, headers, cats, resonator removal and upcoming X-pipe, hollowed out muffler exhaust system.
Does anyone know if Eisseman or SuperSprint are going to make an exhaust kit for the C55?
03-22-2008, 02:53 PM
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W211 E55
After speaking with Brandon I support the smaller SC pulley. In fact, I am going to put my smaller 65" Kleemann SC pulley on. If you look at the diagram above, you will see that the alternator pully is only 1.75" in diameter and the belt does a complee 180 degree wrap around it...
"The radii of the bends the belt takes in passing over the pulleys strongly influence the temperature at which the belt operates. The smaller the pulley diameter, the greater the heat induced into the belt. And more heat means a shorter lifespan." Corky Bell, Supercharged!
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03-22-2008, 03:57 PM
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C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
Absolutely Chicago 
Which is why we temp tested the belt numerous times during r&d to make sure that it was acceptable. We found the belt temperature stayed relatively the same as stock, +/- a few degrees. The rule of thumb is, an increase of 18% or more in belt temperature will result in 50% less belt life. Typically internal belt temperatures rise 1° for every 2° increase in ambient temperature, so the rule is relative as well. The reason the belt temperature stays about the same is because the decrease in diameter is so minimal. Of course there are a lot of factors that affect belt life.
- Poor tension
- Excessive loading
- Misalignment
- Increase bending stress
- Environment
I think the misconception is that we had to create a tiny pulley to make power. This simply isn't true. We did extensive temperature testing of the bearing, pulley, armature plate, and belt. We found that all results were within degrees of stock.
Which is why we temp tested the belt numerous times during r&d to make sure that it was acceptable. We found the belt temperature stayed relatively the same as stock, +/- a few degrees. The rule of thumb is, an increase of 18% or more in belt temperature will result in 50% less belt life. Typically internal belt temperatures rise 1° for every 2° increase in ambient temperature, so the rule is relative as well. The reason the belt temperature stays about the same is because the decrease in diameter is so minimal. Of course there are a lot of factors that affect belt life.- Poor tension
- Excessive loading
- Misalignment
- Increase bending stress
- Environment
I think the misconception is that we had to create a tiny pulley to make power. This simply isn't true. We did extensive temperature testing of the bearing, pulley, armature plate, and belt. We found that all results were within degrees of stock.
03-22-2008, 05:17 PM
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W211 E55
03-22-2008, 05:31 PM
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C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
I figured they were directed at amgsc. But I actually appreciate points that you bring up. These are issues that are valid in the sc pulley discussion as well.
The pulleys will be back this week. Some last minute tweaks and material changes pushed the production back a few days.
The pulleys will be back this week. Some last minute tweaks and material changes pushed the production back a few days.
03-23-2008, 05:28 AM
#140
I'll post this just as a suggestion. Being overly familure with the GM SC'd 3.8L
We've had great results using Goodyear Gatorback belts. Many manufacturers have a gatorback type design, now. They've reduced slippage considerably, especially when a smaller pulley was in use.
I have no idea if there is a gatorback style belt available for this application. But if there is, it'd more than likely reduce slippage, and belt temps.
I just changed the intake gaskets on a friends 99 Pontiac GP GTP. We installed a smaller pulley, with the Gatorback belts 60K miles ago. I inspected them inch by inch, while I had them off the car. They showed virtually no wear on the drive side. And nominal wear on the idler side. I feel confidant that they'll go another 30-40K miles.
It might be worth some investigation
We've had great results using Goodyear Gatorback belts. Many manufacturers have a gatorback type design, now. They've reduced slippage considerably, especially when a smaller pulley was in use.
I have no idea if there is a gatorback style belt available for this application. But if there is, it'd more than likely reduce slippage, and belt temps.
I just changed the intake gaskets on a friends 99 Pontiac GP GTP. We installed a smaller pulley, with the Gatorback belts 60K miles ago. I inspected them inch by inch, while I had them off the car. They showed virtually no wear on the drive side. And nominal wear on the idler side. I feel confidant that they'll go another 30-40K miles.
It might be worth some investigation
03-23-2008, 10:27 AM
#141
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They do, I have been using one for years. It is slightly longer, but with the box of idler pulleys I have from my ODPS setup it just requires the use of one slightly larger.
03-23-2008, 08:41 PM
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c32 AMG
I was wondering about this with the Crank Pulley.. and overdriving...thanks for the info..........
Umm this may be a dumb and stupid question but what is an ODPS system. I mean I can see by reading what it does, however what are its components. How does this underdirve accessories back to stock speeds..
Umm this may be a dumb and stupid question but what is an ODPS system. I mean I can see by reading what it does, however what are its components. How does this underdirve accessories back to stock speeds..
Lets just clear this up...
Lets keep this discussion about the C32, because that is what our pulley is designed for.
The C32 has one belt. That belt drives everything. If you put a large crank pulley in the system, you will be overdriving everything. The accessories are not isolated on a C32. As far as I know, Evosport is the only company that addressed this issue by providing multiple pulleys to underdrive accessories back to stock speeds. That means that cars running a large crank pulley are overdriving most of their accessories (Unless you have the ODPS).
This is why the SC Pulley is ideal. Everything runs at stock speeds, just as they should. You only overdrive one piece, the supercharger. The C32 already has an 8-rib belt, which helps with belt slip.
All SC cars slip belts. My stock C32 belt slips, especially after repetitive hard driving. Crank pulley cars have belt slip as well. Our SC Pulley has belt slip. Unless there is a cog system in place, belt slip exists, period.
Lets keep this discussion about the C32, because that is what our pulley is designed for.
The C32 has one belt. That belt drives everything. If you put a large crank pulley in the system, you will be overdriving everything. The accessories are not isolated on a C32. As far as I know, Evosport is the only company that addressed this issue by providing multiple pulleys to underdrive accessories back to stock speeds. That means that cars running a large crank pulley are overdriving most of their accessories (Unless you have the ODPS).
This is why the SC Pulley is ideal. Everything runs at stock speeds, just as they should. You only overdrive one piece, the supercharger. The C32 already has an 8-rib belt, which helps with belt slip.
All SC cars slip belts. My stock C32 belt slips, especially after repetitive hard driving. Crank pulley cars have belt slip as well. Our SC Pulley has belt slip. Unless there is a cog system in place, belt slip exists, period.
03-23-2008, 09:21 PM
#143
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Eurocharged Performance ML63 and TT lambo
Does that mean that you have to re-test with the tweaks and material changes, or were they so incremental that they will perform/test the same?
03-24-2008, 12:04 AM
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C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
Tectite - Over-drive Pulley System - Because the crank pulley speeds up the entire system, Evosport provides larger pulleys for the Alternator and PS to slow them back down. This is the only kit on the market, as far as I know, that provides this kind of protection from overdriving your accessories.
Loungn14 - The tweaks and material changes made will not affect performance. However, I always regression test pieces through the same test plan to ensure there are no new issues. The minute I have one in my hands, they will get road and dyno tested one last time.
Loungn14 - The tweaks and material changes made will not affect performance. However, I always regression test pieces through the same test plan to ensure there are no new issues. The minute I have one in my hands, they will get road and dyno tested one last time.
03-24-2008, 12:34 AM
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So you are saying that the following components are not turned faster?
Automatic belt tensioner pulley
Air conditioner compressor (when engaged)
Alternator
Power steering pump
As I recall, the Evosport ODPS is the only company that actually did it right. I didn't realize other kits on the market provided the same number of pulleys to counteract the faster speeds.
If you are only provided a larger crankshaft pulley, and a smaller water pump pulley to clearance the crankshaft, how can all the other components not spin faster? Why not just spin one component faster, and leave the rest alone
You also said, for the supercharger belt...? I realize on the scV8 there is a secondary belt, and that would make sense. But on a C32 with one belt, its not possible...
Automatic belt tensioner pulley
Air conditioner compressor (when engaged)
Alternator
Power steering pump
As I recall, the Evosport ODPS is the only company that actually did it right. I didn't realize other kits on the market provided the same number of pulleys to counteract the faster speeds.
If you are only provided a larger crankshaft pulley, and a smaller water pump pulley to clearance the crankshaft, how can all the other components not spin faster? Why not just spin one component faster, and leave the rest alone
You also said, for the supercharger belt...? I realize on the scV8 there is a secondary belt, and that would make sense. But on a C32 with one belt, its not possible...
Brandon,
I must have had a brain freeze. I was thinking about the 55 motors.
03-26-2008, 12:39 AM
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2002 C32 amg, 1998 328i
from the peanut gallery
Lets assume there is no supercharger in the system at all. We actually go to smaller crank pullies to increase power. If we have to spin all those accs faster we actually lose power. You cant argue that the ac compressor will be a heavier load alone. I would have to think spinning every pully faster would present more slip to the crank, than the minimal slip on his new sc pulley. My bearing is going bad and am on board.
03-26-2008, 11:55 AM
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C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
Patience my friends Pulleys will be done by the end of the week. I will be on vacation tomorrow through Sunday though, otherwise it would have been a weekend release. We have a board sponsor doing an independent review before they will be released. All the pictures and information you want will be available the beginning of next week, just before they go on sale.
Also, we will be stocking the original OEM NSK bearing for those that need to do a bearing replacement on their stock pulley.
For those of you that already have a crank pulley, we will be testing out a car with a 178mm and our sc pulley. This will be tested with a production unit, which is why it has not happened yet. Hopefully next week we can make it happen.
I will start a separate thread on the intake mod. But it will be released about two weeks behind the sc pulley. If you purchase an sc pulley, I will offer you a discount on the intake mod when it is released.
Believe me, I am extremely excited. It appears from the response we have received that you are too. The first run is going to sell out fast! Heck, someone bribed me with cookies to get in on the first run
Pulleys will be done by the end of the week. I will be on vacation tomorrow through Sunday though, otherwise it would have been a weekend release. We have a board sponsor doing an independent review before they will be released. All the pictures and information you want will be available the beginning of next week, just before they go on sale.Also, we will be stocking the original OEM NSK bearing for those that need to do a bearing replacement on their stock pulley.
For those of you that already have a crank pulley, we will be testing out a car with a 178mm and our sc pulley. This will be tested with a production unit, which is why it has not happened yet. Hopefully next week we can make it happen.
I will start a separate thread on the intake mod. But it will be released about two weeks behind the sc pulley. If you purchase an sc pulley, I will offer you a discount on the intake mod when it is released.
Believe me, I am extremely excited. It appears from the response we have received that you are too. The first run is going to sell out fast! Heck, someone bribed me with cookies to get in on the first run
03-26-2008, 12:43 PM
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See yeah
