JG26_Irish

I recently traded a 1997 C36 for a 2003 C32 AMG. Love the new car but would like to see it handle curves more like the older C36. Has anybody ever compared the factory alignment specs for the two? The C36 had some noticable negative camber at the front but it helped to make it corner so much better.

The C32 tends to ocillate when the driver makes sudden or large steering inputs. There is more body roll and it wallows thru the corner instead of taking a set and railing like the older car does. Did MB radically change the W203 front suspension over the older W202? Don't get me wrong the C32 handles good and it seems to get better as you push it but it still leaves a bit to be desired. It could use better dampers in the front and less slop in the steering gear. It feels almost like it needs a steering damper which is really strange. It is like a bump steer action that is unsettling at speed. When I push it it plows the front (understeer) much worse that the older car ever did (I have tried different tire pressures with no benefit). I am hoping thru a more aggressive alignment and maybe a swaybar or bushings I can tighten the old girl up a bit. Any of you road racers or autocrossers out there who know enough to have fixed this on your car? I would so love to not be the pioneer. Much easier to copy the fix made by others.

PM me if you have ideas or proven solutions.

Irish

TemjinX2

well the car is inherently setup for understeer...the understeer you feel at the limit could be the traction control. Even when you have it off its still on unless you put the car into dyno mode or pull the esp fuse.

You can try getting a larger rear sway bar and see if that helps. I agree the car has a lot of body roll for a amg car stock.

AnimC32

What mod can reduce body roll?

TemjinX2

thicker front sway bar will reduce body roll while creating more understeer. Thicker rear sway bar will reduce body roll in the rear while creating more oversteer. Having less body roll doesn't always mean the car handles better.

So you have to carefully tune the car, especially if your taking it to the limit.

JG26_Irish

Temjin's assessment agrees with what I thought I knew. Tightening up the rear roll could better balance the car. Still, what I am looking for is anyone out there who has done it? What parts did you use? What alignment settings were applied? ESP is only going to intrude if the car gets unsettled so, the way I see it, if we can improve the balance and handling, the ESP is less likely to intervene. What I am looking for is more front grip. My car is wearing the outside of the front tires first. The older C36 wore the inside front tread first. That tells me that a dose of additional neg camber at the front might do the trick.

I did see one post where the owner installed rear rims with larger 245 tires on the front. That is a novel idea. However, I know that at least in the past AMG knew how to set up a C-klasse to really handle cause they did it in the C36. I was concerned that the corporate lawyers had gotten involved after AMG became part of MB to dumb down the AMG handling. Even though I test drove the 32 before purchase, it is hard to get to know a car in a 10 min test drive on city streets. As I push it now, I am finding more that I do not like in the handling dept. I "Hope" to fix this.

ScottW911

I just mentioned this set-up to another member recently. You might want to search for posts by AWDman. He was the member that de-staggered his car for track use. He seemed to be pleased with the results. It also seems to be the cheapest, most reversable mod you could do.

Koru_Kinshi

Don't you need to roll the fenders if you destagger the fronts?

TemjinX2

i have 235's in the front. if you want to go 245's then yeah you do have to roll them.

AWDman

yes i destaggered then renntech springs then h&r bars then kmac camber bushings.

my car definety does not handle like a stock c32. but i'm at my personal limits for streetability. no doubt some will dislike my setup but given that CT roads are mostly smooth the compromise works in my favor.

AWDman

not true in all instances. with a 32 mm et on a 8" rim you should be able to fit most 245's. maximising fitment is predicated on positioning the rim/tire so that it barely clears the strut tubing on the inside.

DarkXerox

Might be arbitrary, but I know the steering systems are different as the W202's used a recirculating ball type, while the W203's use a rack and pinion setup.

MRAMG1

One word my friend, "NEGATIVE" camber.

I track mine on every occasion I can. Although I still have the staggered tire combo, it is fairly neutral now with only 1.3 degree of negative camber up front. Two ways to go about this:

1. Kmac bushing, Good = Adjustable well sort of, stiifer material, aka poly, Bad = Cost, ride quality and instalation
2. Washers between the lower spindle bolt and spindle assembly, Good = Cheap fix, stock ride quality, Bad = Not very precise, but doesn't really matter in the real world.

I did cure #2, and couldn't be happier. Car has MUCH more turn in, and flatter tire wear. Almost forgot, buy Brigestone 050 PP's NOW if you are serious about tracking your car. They are almost as good as R type tires, and very streetable for longevity, well realativly speaking that is.

See yeah

dorikin_86

Do you want to improve the overall handling feel or 'at-limit' handling?

Changing alignment and tires etc will give you better 'at-limit' handling but I think going with tuned springs/shocks/sways is the only way to drastically improve the overall feel of the car.

JG26_Irish

Do you want to be more specific Dorikin? Which springs and what spring rates? Whose shocks and swaybars did you use? Did you change front or rear or both? What sort of improvements did you gain from that change? Did you actually alter your car? Or are you just making vague comments? At this point you have not yet made any meaningful contribution to my request.

The previous post on the other hand offered specific alteration suggestions: 1.3 deg neg camber. It also offered two different methods to get there. Thanks! I appreciate your effort to help and it matches what I suspected anyway. At limit handling is what I am seeking to improve.

Irish

TemjinX2

i would probably repost your question on the w203 forums. You'll probably get more feedback with a larger sampling.

I'm interested in knowing the stock spring rates as well for the c32. I know there made by eibach...maybe someone can contact them and ask for the spring rates.

I know if you go with d2 coil overs, they will make custom spring rates for you. But its hard to give out numbers without knowing the base numbers.

FrankW

most of what you can do are already covered by others above.

personally I have the TEIN SS, Eibach sways front and rear, and I'm currently running on 235/40/18 and 265/35/18 (oversized i know. you'll need to roll the fender). I love how I can adjust the damper and see what setting works the best.

AWDman

my advice is to get h&r sway bars and destagger the car. you will stop leaning over in corners and the bigger front footprint along with the bars' tuning will eliminate a good deal of the push. see pix below 1st my buddys c55 stock braking turning for big bend notice lean. 2nd is me at pocno north braking turning for dogleg at end of straight notice lean. 3rd is me at lime rock with springs and bars. i'm going through big bend at speeds you will never come close to on street tires (i'm on on hot dot r compound 245/40 17) and running laps in 1:05-1:06 range. notice how relatively flat the car is.

i can point you to more pix if you want.

remember springs will compress, its bars that stop lean. also doing sways and destagerring is simple enough. the h&rs have 2 settings as well so you can play around.

edit - the 3rd pix is not a good example. seems i can't remove it in edit. i'll post a diff one.

AWDman

add pix. last is my late great M3 with suspension closer to race than c32. notice lean angles are similar. m3 is going a bit faster.

TemjinX2

i did notice my car understeered less when i destaggered my car.

JG26_Irish

Thanks guys, did you do the H&R sways in the front and the rear or just the rear only?

TemjinX2

most track types prefer oversteer, i say upgrade the rear sway first and then adjust accordingly.

AWDman

i can tell you from track experience- do front and back together. you will have 4 diff combinations of roll stiffness to play with via the H&R bars. be prepared for a more harsh ride especially when you hit ruts or bumps simultaneously with front axle.

dorikin_86

I never bothered fixing the C55's handling because I didn't track the car much but the following worked on my front heavy E36 M3 and should work on a C32.

1.Coilover kit with 450lb front and 600lb rear springs. I think KW coilovers are probably your best bet since I've yet to find a kit that allows custom spring rates for AMG cars. I think you can replace the KW original springs with custom Swift springs but I'm not 100% sure on this.

2. Camber plates: -3.5 front and -2.5 rear. Max caster up front. Set 0 Toe in the front and toe-in 1/8" in the rear.

3. De-stagger your tires - I think 245/40ZR17 on all 4 corners should give the car pretty good balance.

4. Adjustable Sway bars - I'd only buy this if everything above didn't fix the problem. I bought stuff from Eibach and was happy with them.

TemjinX2

d2 are fully adjustable coilovers with damper adjustment. They do allow you to order custom spring rates at a additional cost. There more popular among the japanese import brands though. 400lb and 650lb seems really stiff for a daily driver though.

dorikin_86

Yup the car was stiff but drove great around the twisties though =)

Excellent balance and does everything you ask it to.