Old vs New Piston Pics
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 3
From: Glendale Arizona
C55,SL55,C63
Its hard to tell with this picture (its small). the other picture of you head looks to me in great shape. I've seen people with blown head gaskets melt away the metal in between valve/piston chambers.
Are you going to put the heads on a flow bench? If you are going this far, I would think its a must after porting. Your sleeving the block right?
Are you going to put the heads on a flow bench? If you are going this far, I would think its a must after porting. Your sleeving the block right?
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,347
Likes: 1
From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
He did agree to use my larger fuel injectors and fuel pump controller to increase the fuel flow while exploring what intake mods make the most sense.
He keeps telling me this build can support 800bhp without any problems but I still worry. Especially if I go the Turbo Garrett GT55s route down the road.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 3
From: Glendale Arizona
C55,SL55,C63
I dont want to step on anyones toes here. IMO, most race motors that put down those kinds of numbers have sleeved blocks for added protection and strength. I hear there is only a few people in the country that have the CNC mill that is able to machine out the coating that is on the cylinder walls. ( I could be wrong??)
The piston rods are strong sure but with that kind of power weak spots will be found. I've heard that the block will become the weak spot.
When the SL65 Brabus S was on Top Gear, Clackson talked about how the block was modded to handle the power it was putting down.
I just dont know if that kind of boost and power would be safe on a 91oct map.
Also a thing to think about is the stock oil cooler on the C55 might have problems handling the gobbs of heat with your new set up. Might want to switch to an E55 remote oil cooler with fan and radiator.
Motor protection is going to be paramount. I dont want to scare you but some questions to ask is, Can the Crank, bearings, and fasteners handle what you are throwing at it? Getting your heads ported and new pistons is one things... High HP cars always seem to find the weakness in the motor and driveline.
The piston rods are strong sure but with that kind of power weak spots will be found. I've heard that the block will become the weak spot.
When the SL65 Brabus S was on Top Gear, Clackson talked about how the block was modded to handle the power it was putting down.
I just dont know if that kind of boost and power would be safe on a 91oct map.
Also a thing to think about is the stock oil cooler on the C55 might have problems handling the gobbs of heat with your new set up. Might want to switch to an E55 remote oil cooler with fan and radiator.
Motor protection is going to be paramount. I dont want to scare you but some questions to ask is, Can the Crank, bearings, and fasteners handle what you are throwing at it? Getting your heads ported and new pistons is one things... High HP cars always seem to find the weakness in the motor and driveline.
Last edited by hooleyboy; Mar 14, 2009 at 11:56 PM.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,347
Likes: 1
From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
I dont want to step on anyones toes here. IMO, most race motors that put down those kinds of numbers have sleeved blocks for added protection and strength. I hear there is only a few people in the country that have the CNC mill that is able to machine out the coating that is on the cylinder walls. ( I could be wrong??)
The piston rods are strong sure but with that kind of power weak spots will be found. I've heard that the block will become the weak spot.
When the SL65 Brabus S was on Top Gear, Clackson talked about how the block was modded to handle the power it was putting down.
I just dont know if that kind of boost and power would be safe on a 91oct map.
Also a thing to think about is the stock oil cooler on the C55 might have problems handling the gobbs of heat with your new set up. Might want to switch to an E55 remote oil cooler with fan and radiator.
Motor protection is going to be paramount. I dont want to scare you but some questions to ask is, Can the Crank, bearings, and fasteners handle what you are throwing at it? Getting your heads ported and new pistons is one things... High HP cars always seem to find the weakness in the motor and driveline.
The piston rods are strong sure but with that kind of power weak spots will be found. I've heard that the block will become the weak spot.
When the SL65 Brabus S was on Top Gear, Clackson talked about how the block was modded to handle the power it was putting down.
I just dont know if that kind of boost and power would be safe on a 91oct map.
Also a thing to think about is the stock oil cooler on the C55 might have problems handling the gobbs of heat with your new set up. Might want to switch to an E55 remote oil cooler with fan and radiator.
Motor protection is going to be paramount. I dont want to scare you but some questions to ask is, Can the Crank, bearings, and fasteners handle what you are throwing at it? Getting your heads ported and new pistons is one things... High HP cars always seem to find the weakness in the motor and driveline.
btw...I was just checking prices online and name brand (CP, Ross, Wiseco, JE, Diamond, Manley,etc) Racing V8 pistons average around $800, rods $900 (Crower,Carrillo, Pauter, Mahle, Oliver, Eagle ), valves $600 (Ferrea, REV, Milodon) ,so why are they so expensive for MBs? For example pistons cost me $4,000 while valves cost me $3000. I suppose that includes labor but I'm paying separately for 30hrs of engine installation. The tranny cost me $5000 alone.
Does this price sound about right?
Last edited by AMGSC; Mar 15, 2009 at 02:41 AM. Reason: more info
Trending Topics
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 358
Likes: 1
From: Snellville, GA
'03 C32, '08 ML63
btw...I was just checking prices online and name brand (CP, Ross, Wiseco, JE, Diamond, Manley,etc) Racing V8 pistons average around $800, rods $900 (Crower,Carrillo, Pauter, Mahle, Oliver, Eagle ), valves $600 (Ferrea, REV, Milodon) ,so why are they so expensive for MBs? For example pistons cost me $4,000 while valves cost me $3000. I suppose that includes labor but I'm paying separately for 30hrs of engine installation. The tranny cost me $5000 alone.
Does this price sound about right?
Does this price sound about right?
I looked at getting a set of Crower forged rods as well which were going to run another $750. I ended up passing on that since stock Saab rods are crack forged and can handle the power without issue.
I realize it's a totally different engine, etc... But that should give you something to go by anyways. To me, $4k would be about double what I'd expect to pay for forged coated pistons.
Hope that helps.
Rich
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
The reason for removing the casting flash on the rods aka polishing the beams is to strengthen them a bit. Polishing and rounding the crank journals is for oil flow and of course bearing performance. I would assume he is going to blueprint the tolerances as well. You may also put in a crank scraper and windage tray in the pan if non existent. This picks up a good 10hp at top end Still down to sell me the SC when you get your turbo?
Still down to sell me the SC when you get your turbo?
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,347
Likes: 1
From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
The reason for removing the casting flash on the rods aka polishing the beams is to strengthen them a bit. Polishing and rounding the crank journals is for oil flow and of course bearing performance. I would assume he is going to blueprint the tolerances as well. You may also put in a crank scraper and windage tray in the pan if non existent. This picks up a good 10hp at top end Still down to sell me the SC when you get your turbo?
Still down to sell me the SC when you get your turbo?
I hope Vadim does not forget to perform these steps and I will remind him to check if its been done.Vadim told me the turbos will cost me another $8K but if I can recoup $6K from the sale of my unique SC which only has 1K miles on it then I'm down for it unless Vadim is unwilling to bore and sleeve for the turbo app which would cost me a few grand more I guess but no problem.
I will check my PM history but I believe you were one of the first to contact me about your interest.
btw.. Can you elaborate on the crank scraper and windage tray for us ignoramousses? Also what do you mean by blueprint the tolerances?
Thanks in advance for educating your fellow forum members.
Last edited by AMGSC; Mar 15, 2009 at 02:53 PM.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,347
Likes: 1
From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
edit: I believe custom pistons cost more..plus piston rings, stops, etc.. will cost another $400 and special Alusil coating so maybe that's why they are so expensive?
Last edited by AMGSC; Mar 15, 2009 at 03:39 PM.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,855
Likes: 2
From: Southern California
S600TT, R350
Let me clear couple of things:
1. Sleeving an aluminum block on a street car is a 50/50 proposition. I have seen some motors last 10K plus and some less than 1K, as sleeves shift and cause coolant leaks. Yes it works on the race motors, but not very well on the street. Since we are running boost, I would rather make the motor accept more boost in the factory configuration, than risk overheting the motor and making it junk.
2. Since we are keeping stock redline, going tatinium is a waste of resources. It is a street car driven 7 miles a day, with occasional strip duty.
3. Adding untested crank scrapper or windage tary can actually lead to oiling problems. Factory design is very adequate. How many AMG motors have failed from lack of oiling? Again, we are not building IMSA or drag racing engine.
3. Robert please look carefuly at your invoice, the prices are for complete short block and heads, plus a discount below.
1. Sleeving an aluminum block on a street car is a 50/50 proposition. I have seen some motors last 10K plus and some less than 1K, as sleeves shift and cause coolant leaks. Yes it works on the race motors, but not very well on the street. Since we are running boost, I would rather make the motor accept more boost in the factory configuration, than risk overheting the motor and making it junk.
2. Since we are keeping stock redline, going tatinium is a waste of resources. It is a street car driven 7 miles a day, with occasional strip duty.
3. Adding untested crank scrapper or windage tary can actually lead to oiling problems. Factory design is very adequate. How many AMG motors have failed from lack of oiling? Again, we are not building IMSA or drag racing engine.
3. Robert please look carefuly at your invoice, the prices are for complete short block and heads, plus a discount below.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,855
Likes: 2
From: Southern California
S600TT, R350
As far as stock piston. For those who never took their engine apart, this is how they normaly look. All of them have a layer of burned hydrocarbons. Two that damaged rings were slightly darker.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,347
Likes: 1
From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
As usual that is why I chose Vadim for my build. Knowledgable and trustworthy with NO BS and NO HYPE.
Thanks again and sorry I appear to be doubting you. I should bite my lip before I ever question you but your input sure is good sensible advice for me and these forum members who are doing extreme mods like Blackbenzz, Hooley, mb_c55_guy, Alumnar and a few others...
Thanks again and sorry I appear to be doubting you. I should bite my lip before I ever question you but your input sure is good sensible advice for me and these forum members who are doing extreme mods like Blackbenzz, Hooley, mb_c55_guy, Alumnar and a few others...
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,365
Likes: 12
From: Orange County, CA
GMC - Miata - Trek - P-Car
There’s nothing improper about wanting to be an informed and prudent tuner customer.
I'm darn sure you’re in good stead relying on Vadim’s vast experience and know-how.
Some light reading on blocks and pistons - from a trusted OE M-B supplier - to better understand the nuances confronting your engine builder:
http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...804-02_WEB.pdf
http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...-02_en_web.pdf
I'm darn sure you’re in good stead relying on Vadim’s vast experience and know-how.
Some light reading on blocks and pistons - from a trusted OE M-B supplier - to better understand the nuances confronting your engine builder:
http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...804-02_WEB.pdf
http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...-02_en_web.pdf
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,347
Likes: 1
From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
There’s nothing improper about wanting to be an informed and prudent tuner customer.
I'm darn sure you’re in good stead relying on Vadim’s vast experience and know-how.
Some light reading on blocks and pistons - from a trusted OE M-B supplier - to better understand the nuances confronting your engine builder:
http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...804-02_WEB.pdf
http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...-02_en_web.pdf
I'm darn sure you’re in good stead relying on Vadim’s vast experience and know-how.
Some light reading on blocks and pistons - from a trusted OE M-B supplier - to better understand the nuances confronting your engine builder:
http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...804-02_WEB.pdf
http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...-02_en_web.pdf
Edit: This stuff is pretty deep so instead of one hour I think it's going to take me 1 year to fully understand. I guess I'm not that smart after all!
Last edited by AMGSC; Mar 16, 2009 at 02:30 AM.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
C32
um, stupid question here 
but...
what is wrong with the pistons on the right?? you can probably clean that up good with some seafoam. the ones on the left seem to have plastic on the bottom...wtf? Isn't the single forged pistons way better?
but...what is wrong with the pistons on the right?? you can probably clean that up good with some seafoam. the ones on the left seem to have plastic on the bottom...wtf? Isn't the single forged pistons way better?
Banned
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,855
Likes: 2
From: Southern California
S600TT, R350
what is wrong with the pistons on the right?? you can probably clean that up good with some seafoam. the ones on the left seem to have plastic on the bottom...wtf? Isn't the single forged pistons way better?
I was thinking about recycling some old Rubbermaid garbage cans to cut out some pistons, but my kid's scissors broke.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,862
Likes: 5
From: Sin City
2005 E55 AMG - - 2005 SL55 AMG - - - - - - 2006 SLK55 AMG - - - - - - 2013 Ducati Diavel AMG -
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
C32
Yes but if something is "forged" then shouldn't it be formed from a single piece of metal and shaped with a mechanical or hydraulic press?
How do you figure the pistons on the left are "forged" if it is clear from the picture the lower section is a completely different material than the head of the piston?
How do you figure the pistons on the left are "forged" if it is clear from the picture the lower section is a completely different material than the head of the piston?
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,347
Likes: 1
From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
Yes but if something is "forged" then shouldn't it be formed from a single piece of metal and shaped with a mechanical or hydraulic press?
How do you figure the pistons on the left are "forged" if it is clear from the picture the lower section is a completely different material than the head of the piston?
How do you figure the pistons on the left are "forged" if it is clear from the picture the lower section is a completely different material than the head of the piston?
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 3
From: Glendale Arizona
C55,SL55,C63
Yes but if something is "forged" then shouldn't it be formed from a single piece of metal and shaped with a mechanical or hydraulic press?
How do you figure the pistons on the left are "forged" if it is clear from the picture the lower section is a completely different material than the head of the piston?
How do you figure the pistons on the left are "forged" if it is clear from the picture the lower section is a completely different material than the head of the piston?
edited...
Last edited by hooleyboy; Mar 16, 2009 at 02:53 AM.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 3
From: Glendale Arizona
C55,SL55,C63
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,342
Likes: 11
From: PA
S600, GL450, GLC 43
I have one IMPORTANT question for you:
1. The NEW psiton has the oil ring located in the wrist pin cut out area. On stroker mustangs, this has lead to premature failure of the oil ring, usually around 10,000 miles. Vadium, have you addressed this issue?
I know sonetimes this IS the only way to go, so I understand the engineering behind it. Just keep an eye on your tail pipes a few thousand miles down the road.
GOOD luck, and truly a GREAT build up
See yeah
PS: For LOW reving engines, aka below 7000, Titanium is a WASTE of money as was stated above. You will see NO gain, due to decreased mass below this.
1. The NEW psiton has the oil ring located in the wrist pin cut out area. On stroker mustangs, this has lead to premature failure of the oil ring, usually around 10,000 miles. Vadium, have you addressed this issue?
I know sonetimes this IS the only way to go, so I understand the engineering behind it. Just keep an eye on your tail pipes a few thousand miles down the road.
GOOD luck, and truly a GREAT build up
See yeah
PS: For LOW reving engines, aka below 7000, Titanium is a WASTE of money as was stated above. You will see NO gain, due to decreased mass below this.
