hooleyboy

I just read that us US tax payers just gave out over 500 million dollars to help develop a car that will cost over 80K!!!! Thats just crazy. I'm all for cool cars, but how can you justify over 500 million dollars to develop a product few can afford? Not to mention its made in Finland or something like that!

read: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125383160812639013.html

tractorcrusher

The money is an investment into the engineering, not necessarily the first car that uses the technology that has resulted.

That being said I'm not one for discussing how I think tax money should be spent.

viper501

it is allllll a scam on the taxpayers. If these cars were economically viable in a free market they would be getting produced. They aren't so they aren't. Or they weren't. Now that you have a half a billion dollars of our money, they become economically viable. And then they become a Delorean.

Gramma_Benz

Wanna see worse??

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090916/ap_on_re_us/us_kidnapped_girl_offenders;_ylt=ArCpzsNq3ifYTQ5ko .C0UqRH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MW1uNjdvBHBvcwM0BHNlYwN5b i1jaGFubmVsBHNsawNjYWxpZmNhc2VjYXM-

The state of California has to pay for Robinson's re-entry into society, including his $3,500-a-month house. He also receives about $600 per month for groceries, utilities and other necessities although state officials say he has signed a promissory note to repay at least some expenses.
State officials estimate the cost of confinement and treatment of sexually violent predators in state mental institutions at $185,000 a year per patient.

hooleyboy

This whole green car movement with Electric cars is a total joke. What the hell are they going to do with all the batteries once these electric cars take a crap? A land fill full of batteries?

Even the argument that its for an investment on technology is kinda bogus to me. When have you ever seen an expensive car company put out a car that is affordable? Never. Lambo, Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, and so on dont do it. What makes you think Fisker and Tesla will? Just because they get our tax money does one think they will all of a sudden of with in 10 years have car in the 20k or under car segment? 20K or under seems like the affordable economy car price.

I would rather buy someone second hand car then buy an electric/hybrid. To me buying used is a "greener" way to do things.

billapex

Just like everything with this administration--spend, spend, spend what you already know you don't have, then figure out who'll pay for it. Guess who that'll be?

c32AMG-DTM

It's a complex issue. The taxpayer's investment is frequently positioned as "an investment in greener tech to reduce both greenhouse gas emissions and our dependence on foreign oil." While individual opinions widely differ on the benefits of the former and what if any impact that might make on climate change, most agree the latter should make us more secure overall. Worth .5B? Not for me to say... but our gov't spends staggering amounts of money on many things, some of which may seem even more insignificant than this one.

Typically, luxury brands innovate, and the tech trickles down to less expensive brands. Xenon headlights, NAV, heated/massage seating, dual-clutch transmissions, the list goes on. Bleeding edge drivetrain tech wouldn't necessarily be any different, IMHO.

Quicktwinturbo

What?? Everybody can afford 80K+ cars man.. Don't we all have millions of $ in the bank and couple billions in the Swiss bank?

TemjinX2

lol...the government gave away $750 billion in tarp funds and your mad about 500mil?

Basically like others have said..its a investment to innovate so the technology will trickle down. Remember the S-class, it was the first car to have air bags, abs, cruise control..etc etc 10yrs before the first regular car did and that car is $80k +.

Eventually economics of scale will allow that technology to be put in 20k cars.

hooleyboy

I for one will be stupid rich, there is not doubt about that.. lol. All I got to do is cash in my winning Powerball ticket come Wednesday when my numbers pop up.

When that happens I will be donating my C55 to a totally undeserving forum member.

on a real note: I know a few very well off people. The last thing on their minds is saving at the pump. Heck the last thing on my mind is saving at the pump.

You know whats crazy make sure you dont charge your Fisker during peak power hours. You may save at the pump but when your electric bill rolls in at the end of the month, it will make your eyes pop out after a 16 hour full charge.

TemjinX2

but thats the point...instead of paying Bin Laden at the pump. We're paying Edison at the end of the month with the electric bill.

Instead of exporting our cash to terrorists, wouldn't you rather keep it in the US?

hooleyboy

A local racer, you may have seen on SPEED's Passtime show had an all electric S10 pickup and he runs 11's. From what i know that car was built in his garage and for a modest buck. So the tech is there even so that it can be done in a garage on the weekend. Now your telling me 500mill is needed to make the tech available to trickle down? with some trips to Home Depot and the internet it can be done.

It you think about it, we just spent over 500mill on basically what the Remote control car industry has been doing for decades.

I know there are other forms of reckless spending, but since this was about cars it made me want to post about it.

hooleyboy

Thats a good point and I agree with you on that 100% however the power plants will have to work over time if the US is run on Electric cars. That will make it no more "green" then gas cars. Funny thing is Fisker is out of Finland so our money is already out of the country.

The power companies are always telling us to save and conserve electricity.To prevent rolling blackouts and added pollution. I can see it now. In AZ we have "No burn days" to cut down pollution. In Cali there will be "No Charge days" to prevent rolling black outs.

TemjinX2

come on man...the standards for building a car for a oem in terms of reliability, safety is completely different then someone who made a electric car in there back yard.

Just like there's a guy that replaced all the nickel batteries in his prius with 100 lithium ion batteries and got 126mpg. But would you have your kides ride in a car with 100 potentially explosive batteries in the back?

If this makes you mad, just read the Federal budget...the government spends billions on bridges that no one uses or roads that go no where. Its called pork barrel spending, designed to give money to the poorer regions of the country.

At least this investment will help everyone that can buy a car.

TemjinX2

its because most of our power is still generated by oil or coal. Europe and Asia use nuclear..which a lot cheaper then oil.

We should either convert to nuclear or try investing in clean coal plants.

But most people will usually plug in there cars after work so it shouldn't put too much of a strain on the electric grid. Since the majority of the power is used from 9am-5pm.

I agree frisker didn't really deserve the money, but there probably just hedging there bets. You can't put all your money in tesla and then they go bk and you lose all your money in electric car tech.

hooleyboy

This is a true form of Pork spending, This funds a company located outside the USA for technology that already exists. In turn it may or may not yield any true usable tech that doesn't already exist. The Gov has just invested in a total crap shoot. Also once they have the technology developed from our dollar they are free to sell it to any car maker for any price they want. Much like what happens today when car companies buy developmental tech from other manufactures.

A better use of the money would be to invest in a safe "Green" way to dispose of an electric cars batteries once their life is up.

Its sad how it all works: Fisker and Tesla donate tons of money to the Dems in return they both get huge amounts of tax payer money. However the company that asked for 50mill for development of a affordable green electric car gets denied funds after being told their application looks good.

dkflipse

This discussion could go on for 200 posts. I say steer clear of politics and religion on here. .... (but I'm with Temjin on this one )

c32AMG-DTM

hooleyboy - you're kinda going off the deep end on this one...

Was it wrong of the gov't to give tax incentives for consumers to purchase Insights and Priuses (sales of which benefit Japanese auto manufacturers)? Bigger picture, is it wrong for the United States to give billions in foreign aid? No direct ROI, but improves their citizens' quality of life and influences (hopefully positively) their view of the U.S.

While there's no "right or wrong" when comparing opinions, I'd have to give a "+1" to TemjinX2's comments above.

FWIW, I've read that the kW needed to charge an electric car (like the GM Volt) costs an estimated 2 bucks, and coupled with the gas motor it should easily be mpg in the triple digits... potentially over 200.

Maybe I've got a soft-spot for Fisker because they started out as an MB and BMW coachbuilder, and want to do something truly innovative with the Karma... but I have no problem with supporting that technological development with a modest quantity of my tax dollars. Good lookin' car, too.

So, agree to disagree I suppose.

RES

One thing that is overlooked in the production of these cars is how much energy and materials does it take to produce. The Prius takes more then most cars and over time does not save as much as people think.
Then you take proven fuel savings car like the A class with the small turbo deisel and remove that engine pop in a Mitsubishi motor that gets bad fuel economy and sell it as the smart car????
Honda stops making the HF model that got 45 miles to the gallon because they wanted to sell there hybrid. The hybrid gets 47 miles and cost twice as much??? Where are all the turbo deisel cars that they have that get 45-50 in Europe but they cant bring them here???
And the last thing is where is the largest oil find in recient times???

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911

hooleyboy

There is no doubt its a nice looking car, but you have to toss up a red flag when your money is spent on a product that only a small percentage of tax payers can afford.

Investing in what could develop into usable, affordable technology as a sheer by-product is risking our money and its reckless.

They say "most" of the money will be spend on the development of a 40K electric luxury sedan. Thats not exactly avoidable to the common tax payer.

TemjinX2

yeah...i agree with the others. This can go on forever. I put in my two cents. i'll just leave it at that.

hooleyboy

I'm with you on the turbo diesel motor. You can use a smaller amount of fuel and add more boost and heat to detonate the diesel fuel and now you got a fuel efficient car that not only uses less fuel, it uses its waist to help power the car. Not to mention you can convert them to run on bio fuels as well.

It seems like a better alternative. I'd much rather have a salvage yard full of diesel motors than one filled with NiMH and Lithium Ion batteries.

Quicktwinturbo

I know this is OT but you know what really gets my blood boiling?
I read an article that this 6 year old girl got physically / sexual abused by a 50yr old drunk. This happened when she was on her way to SCHOOL!!!

She was so brutally beaten and raped, (I won't go into the detail.. It's really f'in SICK..) 80% of that little girls' reproductive system is ruined and she'll have to live with the fear and all the BS for rest of her life....

But that doo only have to serve 12 years in prison..

W..T..F...

bigben320e

My .02.

You have to be able to look further than what's in front of your face and think 5 steps ahead. It's chess, not checkers.

Some hate this administration so much they will use any nit-pick rather than try to see both sides. Can electric cars save money and reduce oil dependency? Sure.

Will the price of them come down as economies of scale work through? Look at history, I think we all know the answer.

Temjin +1.

bigben320e

He should have been fried.