AMG-UNIT

Just wonderin what you guys think of Brabus' lowering springs.. Any thoughts? How's the drop on it?


Thanks!

Harris

Very comfortable, much improved handling. I would rate them next to Renntech spings, on top of H&R or Eibach. The drop is about 1.5" front and 1.2" rear (depending on your car's option).

LowRydeR

Springs by themselves will eventually wear out the stock shocks, so get H&R coilovers. My friend has them on his C32 and it is awesome! Sucks they don't make one for W208 CLK.

-Bruce

SiLvaC32

yea... H&R coilovers are awesome! Sean (vader13) and myself both have it and it is great!~

Jerry

Carl AMG

If you slam the car like the one in your post you'll definitely wear out stock shocks fast. The RENNtech's aren't that severe a drop and haven't shown any sign of ruining my stock shocks in about ten months. But, eventually, the STOCK springs will wear out the shocks as well.

AMG-UNIT

Hey, thanks for all the replies! Very helpful indeed.

Yeah, i do plan on investing in some coilovers for the future maybe but right now I am currently a student, and money is a little tight(tuition, etc!) so i'm lookin for the most affordable springs. I've found one on e-bay that is from Brabus that's made from my car, and it wasn't too bad i guess?

I'm wondering how much RENNtech springs go for these days?

thanks again!

j

Mach430

Make sure you consider the cost to install the springs when choosing them over the coilovers, as upgrading later with installation will be like starting from scratch.

Harris

If you want to lower your car a bit and have solid improving in handling, the Brabus springs is a steal on eBay right now. If you want to get the maximum improvement by changing the springs only, Renntech will be the one (USD525). Should you choose to get coilovers, there are more than 1 options: Bilstein, Carlsson, KW, H&R.

Yes, changing springs only will wear out the shocks faster, but all tuning companies are offering them. Do you always hear us saying "my shocks are gone only because I had Brabus springs installed"? When your shocks are gone, its a good indication that its time to change your car!!

Carl AMG

What do you think of the Bilstein PSS9 for coilovers compared to the H&R's?

It's funny but nobody talked about a spring change wearing out the shocks before the H&R coilovers were available!

AMG BRED

i thought it was a given that your shocks will be gone if you don't replace them but replace only the springs.

Harris

This is a pretty sensitive topic. They are all good. If you are really interested and want me to comment more than that, please send me an e-mail.

I hope you know the answer to your question already....a set of H&R CO is USD1300+, a set of H&R springs is USD300, if you're the vendor, which one do you prefer to sell?

For me, I give recommendation solely based on the client's needs, not how much money I am making.

Mach430

Most people can not buy a new car every 5-10,000 miles, and thus we recommend purchasing a matched set; i.e. H&R Coilovers. There has been extensive debate on the C Class forum as to why you do not want to go with an adjustable set such as the PSS9's. BMW forums will provide the same info.

We drive our cars every day on the streets, and a few days a month on the race track. You will not find a better coilover setup for the C32 than the H&R's.

Thanks,
Ben

Carl AMG

Sorry, that comment flew right by me. I guess you're saying that the shocks on a lowered car will wear out every 5-10,000 miles?

What if you go with a matched set of lowering springs and shocks like the Kleeman Speed Sensitive set up?

Mach430

Yes, it was in response to an earlier post.

Any matched set of springs/shocks or coilovers should last the life of the car. Most companies provide a lifetime warranty on their kits. For the money, I would go with the H&R coilovers. They handle great without any loss in ride comfort.

Thanks,
Ben

JustinTRW

Ben,
What are the disadvantages of the PSS-9? It seems to me, that the PSS-9 has the potential to have a better handling setup than the H&R set, and it can be changed during the life of the car.

Mach430

https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=42332

There are pages of information provided by Brad and myself. I will leave you with one question...

If you have 9 adjustable dampening rates, but only 1 spring rate, AND there is only 1 optimum dampening rate for each spring rate, WHAT do you do with the other 8 settings?

Thanks,
Ben

JustinTRW

After reading this thread it seems as if there is still a "range" of settings in which the PSS9 works well. However, that range is probably limited to two-three settings at most.

My problem is that I'm looking for something softer than the PSS9 at the stiffest setting, but something more stiff than the H&R CO.

Mach430

Stiffness and handling are often incorrectly associated with eachother. Yes, if you want your car to handle better than stock, the suspension needs to be stiffer. But at a certain point, stiffness will actually do more harm then good. There is no need for a stiffer street suspension than the H&R's. The rebound and compression are setup perfectly.

JustinTRW

That is certainly a matter of opinion. Perhaps not myself personally, but I know of at least a few people that need more than the H&R CO system, because their vehicle serves a dual purpose. I don't think the H&R system is as stiff as a Renntech system. I also felt that the Renntech system is more composed. Unfortunately, no one really knows how they compare with hard numbers, only by feel. It would be interesting to drive them both back to back.

I wouldn't mind driving Vadim's car again, but I feel the big wheels and power upgrades would make it hard to get a real feel for just the H&R setup. Anyone else in So Cal that can give me a ride/drive?

Mach430

We ran head to head with Renntech at Eurotunerfest last year at Willow Springs Raceway. Our car had H&R springs, stock brakes and at the time was 15hp less. Their car had 4 wheel brakes, performance upgrades, and Renntech springs. Our car, underpowered and underbraked, ran the same times as their car. While some will argue that this is due to the driver (Brad Otoupalik), Renntech had Danny McKeever, who runs his own school at Willow Springs and holds several track records. I'm not saying that one spring is far better than another, but these numbers would show that they are on a level playing field. And believe me, the coilovers handle much better than the springs. This make sense since H&R is one of the suppliers of Renntech's springs.

Thanks,
Ben

JustinTRW

Their car with just springs feels a little underdampered. Basically I want to figure out what I want/need: the H&R CO, or Renntech springs and some possibly custom valved shocks. The former is cheaper for sure.

Zeppelin

And at the time your car had only the H&R springs not the coilovers. Just shows you that the H&R springs with the stock shocks are not as bad as people make them out to be.

Mach430

No, they are great. Not quite as good as the coilovers, but for a fraction of the price, they have a lot to offer. They will over time wear through your stock shocks, as we saw when our car began to porpose at high speeds.

Carl AMG

Ben,

I'm curious. Can you post the spring rates on the H&R coilovers?

How about the rates for the H&R springs and or RENNtech springs if you know them?

Thanks for your help,

JustinTRW

I think many would disagree with this premise.

Here is the response of smgc32:
The PSS-9's are different in that they adjust bump/compression and rebound at the same time. These are not rebound adjustable only units like some other manufacturers. There is not however a one to one relationship in changing the settings, ie. 50lb incremental change in the bump may only change the rebound by 10lbs. To a certain extent, this philosopy in adjustability allows you to have many shocks in one, all of which are very close in valving specifications. My previous Suspension Modification posts refer to the PSS-9's adjustable ranges. I also agree that most people will get the settings wrong if they don't scientifically document their testing and objectively find their sweet spot for their driving conditions. Like I have said before, it is quite fun to listen to adjustable coilover owners talk about what works best for them in the pits. The settings are all over the place even with the same car! And most people think that "9" is the firmest on the PSS-9! Why doesn't someone just import the PSS system already. This is what should be going head to head with the H&R. It is just like comparing the C32 to the S4. The only "true" comparison would be to bring an automatic transmission S4 to the table to compete with the similarly equiped C32. The manual S4 has "6" levels of adjustment in the transmission, the C32 just "1" so to speak.

Ask Evosport about their E36 track car's JRZ adjustable dampers (I believe that is what is on their car). Same spring, different adjustable bump and rebound settings! Ask any of the racers who use adjustable coilovers. They pick the spring rate that best suits the track, then fine tune the suspension with damper adjustments! Call Turner, TC Kline, etc., or just go to a race event and talk with the team. If Ben was right, and I don't believe in his logic, than what is the down side to owning a shock that performs like 8 different shocks in one, especially if you can "match" each one of the shocks valving characteristics with 8 different springs? Again, I don't believe this extreme is necessary, but is available, as is re-valving to your own specs for only $55.00 per damper. Remember, the damper is there to control the spring. That is its function. Having the ability to incrementally change the damper's valving values will allow you to change the "feel" of the selected spring given the same spring rate. There is a range of damper valving specification that will work within the parameters of a particular spring rate. I think it is time for someone to post actual valving and springs rates obtained from a shock/spring dyno and plot their observed graphs.