R&d #9
03-17-2004, 10:00 PM
#1
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R&d #9
We have been busy with other numerous projects, so please excuse the delay.
Here is the latest:
We are going to follow the progress of air as it enters the engine.
1. SL55 Air Boxes. Over last two years we were planning on making our own HiFlow airboxes to keep compressor inlet air restriction to a minimum. After several different designs, the realities and cost of producing a run pointed us in the direction of using AMG parts.
SL/E/S55 all use the same airboxes. They will fit C32. However a number of small adapter stands and hoses will need to be fabricated to make it a clean and easy install.
On a stock C32 there is 2-3HP, on our Stage II they are worth 7-9HP, including rear splitter.
I will post some pictures in the next couple of days.
2. 190 mm (7.5’’) Crank Pulley (CP). Got Boost?
Stock C32 pulley is 156 mm (6.125’’) and makes 14.7 lbs (1 bar)
Our ODPS pulleys is 178 mm (7’’) and makes 17.7 lbs. (1.2 bar)
Theoretically, 190 mm pulley should add another 3 lbs. (0.2 bar) and 30HP. We will be testing it shortly.
There are still some unknowns:
a. Compressor reliability. Compressor red line is rated at 20,700 rpm. Clutch pulley is 2.5’’, so with 190 mm CP we are at (7.5/2.5) x 6220 = 18,660 rpm. Pretty close. Only long term testing will tell.
b. Charge temperatures. Since we are creating more boost we are also creating more heat. In addition, compressor efficiency falls off when it is near it’s redline.
Since stock Intercooler (IC) is already marginal, an upgrade to Laminova cores might be needed to keep charge temps under control.
c. Since CP also drives all other accessories there is some concern for their reliability. Again only testing will tell.
3. Laminova cores for stock intercooler.
You are looking at the back of the IC. Air is moving directly at you. You can see two of the six cores that are mounted inside factory housing. Theoretically this almost doubles total contact surface area vs. stock core.
On a Stage II car charge temperatures reach 150-155F in 4th gear. Our goal is to get down to 120-125F along with an increase in boost from lower restriction cores.
4. Kompressor Discharge Splitter (KDS)
After leaving IC, air splits into left and right surge tanks. Those are the cast aluminum pieces with AMG lettering. Factory uses T-shaped splitter casting. We have fabricated a new splitter that offers better "guidance" to air as it split into two. I will have some pictures and more dyno graphs shortly.
5. HiFlow Metal-Matrix X-pipe.
After leaving headers exhaust gases go through four catalytic converters.
After searching different suppliers we have finally found a metal-matrix converter that has a proper inlet diffusor. As you can see from the picture one side is longer and shallower than the other.
We are planning on making an X-pipe that will incorporate two of those converters. Expected gains are in 10-15HP range.
Also Supersprint is working on a C32 specific version of their catback system. Although I do not expect big power gains, a nice, throtty, but not loud exhaust is allways welcome - car is almost too quiet now.
OK, so what does this all mean. From combination of parts above, I believe we can reach 420-425 RWHP. (500 FWHP). After this we are out of fuel. Stock injectors will be done. Possibly fuel pump too.
To go to larger injectors will require some major reprogramming of the sofware, so we might end up going with AEM stand-alone. Fuel pump can be upgraded fairly easily.
After that we are out of air. Stock compressor is around 1.6-1.7L, rule of thumb is around 300HP per liter, so we are at 510HP at best.
Will 500 FWHP be enough???????????
No, probably not. As an old saying goes - Too much HP is never enough.
Thank you for listening.
Here is the latest:
We are going to follow the progress of air as it enters the engine.
1. SL55 Air Boxes. Over last two years we were planning on making our own HiFlow airboxes to keep compressor inlet air restriction to a minimum. After several different designs, the realities and cost of producing a run pointed us in the direction of using AMG parts.
SL/E/S55 all use the same airboxes. They will fit C32. However a number of small adapter stands and hoses will need to be fabricated to make it a clean and easy install.
On a stock C32 there is 2-3HP, on our Stage II they are worth 7-9HP, including rear splitter.
I will post some pictures in the next couple of days.
2. 190 mm (7.5’’) Crank Pulley (CP). Got Boost?
Stock C32 pulley is 156 mm (6.125’’) and makes 14.7 lbs (1 bar)
Our ODPS pulleys is 178 mm (7’’) and makes 17.7 lbs. (1.2 bar)
Theoretically, 190 mm pulley should add another 3 lbs. (0.2 bar) and 30HP. We will be testing it shortly.
There are still some unknowns:
a. Compressor reliability. Compressor red line is rated at 20,700 rpm. Clutch pulley is 2.5’’, so with 190 mm CP we are at (7.5/2.5) x 6220 = 18,660 rpm. Pretty close. Only long term testing will tell.
b. Charge temperatures. Since we are creating more boost we are also creating more heat. In addition, compressor efficiency falls off when it is near it’s redline.
Since stock Intercooler (IC) is already marginal, an upgrade to Laminova cores might be needed to keep charge temps under control.
c. Since CP also drives all other accessories there is some concern for their reliability. Again only testing will tell.
3. Laminova cores for stock intercooler.
You are looking at the back of the IC. Air is moving directly at you. You can see two of the six cores that are mounted inside factory housing. Theoretically this almost doubles total contact surface area vs. stock core.
On a Stage II car charge temperatures reach 150-155F in 4th gear. Our goal is to get down to 120-125F along with an increase in boost from lower restriction cores.
4. Kompressor Discharge Splitter (KDS)
After leaving IC, air splits into left and right surge tanks. Those are the cast aluminum pieces with AMG lettering. Factory uses T-shaped splitter casting. We have fabricated a new splitter that offers better "guidance" to air as it split into two. I will have some pictures and more dyno graphs shortly.
5. HiFlow Metal-Matrix X-pipe.
After leaving headers exhaust gases go through four catalytic converters.
After searching different suppliers we have finally found a metal-matrix converter that has a proper inlet diffusor. As you can see from the picture one side is longer and shallower than the other.
We are planning on making an X-pipe that will incorporate two of those converters. Expected gains are in 10-15HP range.
Also Supersprint is working on a C32 specific version of their catback system. Although I do not expect big power gains, a nice, throtty, but not loud exhaust is allways welcome - car is almost too quiet now.
OK, so what does this all mean. From combination of parts above, I believe we can reach 420-425 RWHP. (500 FWHP). After this we are out of fuel. Stock injectors will be done. Possibly fuel pump too.
To go to larger injectors will require some major reprogramming of the sofware, so we might end up going with AEM stand-alone. Fuel pump can be upgraded fairly easily.
After that we are out of air. Stock compressor is around 1.6-1.7L, rule of thumb is around 300HP per liter, so we are at 510HP at best.
Will 500 FWHP be enough???????????
No, probably not. As an old saying goes - Too much HP is never enough.
Thank you for listening.
03-17-2004, 11:20 PM
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2006 Corvette Coupe
Exciting developments!
Thanks for the update Vadim, looks like you've been busy!
A few questions:
(a) Do you know if the stock head gasket is up to handling the stress associated with running the 190mm pulley?
(b) How robust is the heat handling capacity of the 6L coolant which is part of the pulley kit? For example, I routinely attend DEs in which we run the cars on the track for up to 40 min at a time. Will the 6L I/C coolant remain sufficiently cool to provide adequate I/C heat removal on a hot summer day by the end of a 40 min track session, or would some sort of I/C coolant radiator upgrade be required?
(c) How will these new items be packaged into new stages? Perhaps someone from Evosport can summarize the existing prices and expected time for installation for the existing stages and components.
(d) For comparison purposes, do you have any pictures of the stock I/C cores?
A few questions:
(a) Do you know if the stock head gasket is up to handling the stress associated with running the 190mm pulley?
(b) How robust is the heat handling capacity of the 6L coolant which is part of the pulley kit? For example, I routinely attend DEs in which we run the cars on the track for up to 40 min at a time. Will the 6L I/C coolant remain sufficiently cool to provide adequate I/C heat removal on a hot summer day by the end of a 40 min track session, or would some sort of I/C coolant radiator upgrade be required?
(c) How will these new items be packaged into new stages? Perhaps someone from Evosport can summarize the existing prices and expected time for installation for the existing stages and components.
(d) For comparison purposes, do you have any pictures of the stock I/C cores?
03-18-2004, 12:53 AM
#4
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1. Thanks Vomit!
2. cschow: to answer your questions:
a. Stock gasket is tri-layer metal. Unless there is major detonation issues, I do not expect it to be a problem.
b. 6L should be enough. We are on the road course at least twice a year at Willow Springs (100F +) and charge temps were in 125-135 range fairly consistently.
c. We are still determining pricing and packaging.
d. I will take some pixs when we get new IC installed.
2. cschow: to answer your questions:
a. Stock gasket is tri-layer metal. Unless there is major detonation issues, I do not expect it to be a problem.
b. 6L should be enough. We are on the road course at least twice a year at Willow Springs (100F +) and charge temps were in 125-135 range fairly consistently.
c. We are still determining pricing and packaging.
d. I will take some pixs when we get new IC installed.
03-18-2004, 05:06 AM
#7
Those are some absolutley beautiful pictures sir!
Near the end of your original post did you intend to say "We are out for fuel"? as in rebuilding or tuning the fuel components?
Near the end of your original post did you intend to say "We are out for fuel"? as in rebuilding or tuning the fuel components?
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03-18-2004, 11:01 AM
#8
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vraa: what I meant was that we are out of fuel capacity of the injectors.
Stock fuel injectors are 40 lbs. per hour.
Times six and we have 240 lbs. of fuel.
In simple terms it takes 0.5 lbs of fuel per hour to make 1 HP.
So if we divide 240 by 0.5 we get 480HP ~ 500HP.
Stock fuel injectors are 40 lbs. per hour.
Times six and we have 240 lbs. of fuel.
In simple terms it takes 0.5 lbs of fuel per hour to make 1 HP.
So if we divide 240 by 0.5 we get 480HP ~ 500HP.
03-18-2004, 12:10 PM
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2006 Corvette Coupe
dyno question
Hi Vadim:
A friend of mine more familar with force induction was looking through the R&Ds with me and a few questions came up.
1. What type of dyno is being used to gather the data, and is the data raw data or corrected data, if corrected, to which correction?
2. The dyno runs seem to start about 3.5K- 4K rpm and run up to red line. Can they be expanded to cover the entire usable rpm range, i.e., from idle to red line?
A friend of mine more familar with force induction was looking through the R&Ds with me and a few questions came up.
1. What type of dyno is being used to gather the data, and is the data raw data or corrected data, if corrected, to which correction?
2. The dyno runs seem to start about 3.5K- 4K rpm and run up to red line. Can they be expanded to cover the entire usable rpm range, i.e., from idle to red line?
03-18-2004, 03:25 PM
#10
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cschow:
1. The dyno we use is Dynojet 248c, all data is corrected to SAE - you can see it listed on the left side of the graph. Car actually makes 375 RWHP - uncorrected.
2. We can run from 2000 rpm to redline, but untill 4000 rpm we can not be at wide open throttle as car downshifts to lower gear. So we use 4000 rpm on up.
1. The dyno we use is Dynojet 248c, all data is corrected to SAE - you can see it listed on the left side of the graph. Car actually makes 375 RWHP - uncorrected.
2. We can run from 2000 rpm to redline, but untill 4000 rpm we can not be at wide open throttle as car downshifts to lower gear. So we use 4000 rpm on up.
03-18-2004, 04:33 PM
#11
Originally posted by vadim@evosport
vraa: what I meant was that we are out of fuel capacity of the injectors.
Stock fuel injectors are 40 lbs. per hour.
Times six and we have 240 lbs. of fuel.
In simple terms it takes 0.5 lbs of fuel per hour to make 1 HP.
So if we divide 240 by 0.5 we get 480HP ~ 500HP.
vraa: what I meant was that we are out of fuel capacity of the injectors.
Stock fuel injectors are 40 lbs. per hour.
Times six and we have 240 lbs. of fuel.
In simple terms it takes 0.5 lbs of fuel per hour to make 1 HP.
So if we divide 240 by 0.5 we get 480HP ~ 500HP.
03-18-2004, 04:51 PM
#12
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Larger, i.e. more lbs. per hour injector will be required. To get computer to properly meter fuel, some major software work will be needed. Coupled with airflow limit of compressor, is the reason I kind of set 500HP as a next milestone to overcome.
03-18-2004, 06:13 PM
#13
Out Of Control!
Originally posted by vadim@evosport
Car actually makes 375 RWHP - uncorrected.
Car actually makes 375 RWHP - uncorrected.
Wonder what Ben's gonna do about this?
03-18-2004, 08:06 PM
#14
Out Of Control!!
Originally posted by JamE55
That actually has a little more juice than Ben's car? Wonder what Ben's gonna do about this?
That actually has a little more juice than Ben's car?
Wonder what Ben's gonna do about this?
!
03-18-2004, 08:53 PM
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Vadim,
How is the engine going to handle all this? I notice you talked about the compressor reliability at 190mm but what about engine and components? Cylinders? Pistons?
Prasith
How is the engine going to handle all this? I notice you talked about the compressor reliability at 190mm but what about engine and components? Cylinders? Pistons?
Prasith
03-18-2004, 09:15 PM
#16
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As long as tuning is done correctly engine should be able to handle it. Key is to keep detonation at bay.
Long term will have to see. This is why we are doing it on our C32 first.
Long term will have to see. This is why we are doing it on our C32 first.
03-19-2004, 01:49 AM
#17
1st of all, great work!
Hey vadim,
Have you had a chance to run your car in the 1/4 mile. I know the quater mile isn't everything but I was just wondering what numbers you are expecting if you haven't yet.
Oh yea,
In theory, if you are able to make ~500 hp would you think you could hang with the V8 compressor. I figure they have the edge with the V8, we have the edge w/ weight.
Thanks in advace.
Hey vadim,
Have you had a chance to run your car in the 1/4 mile. I know the quater mile isn't everything but I was just wondering what numbers you are expecting if you haven't yet.
Oh yea,
In theory, if you are able to make ~500 hp would you think you could hang with the V8 compressor. I figure they have the edge with the V8, we have the edge w/ weight.
Thanks in advace.
03-19-2004, 02:10 AM
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'14 428i M-Sport, '02 C32 AMG
sounds great!!! please keep us updated as far as progress and pricing. i would love to hear how soon these products are available. i would be particularly interested in the KDS, 55 Airbox, and X-Pipe. thanks!
03-19-2004, 01:11 PM
#19
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Roseylv: No ET yet. One of those days we will get some numbers.
Yes, W211 E55 will not be a problem, with the same power and 400 lbs. less weight.
99em3: We will have priving and availability soon. Stay tuned.
Yes, W211 E55 will not be a problem, with the same power and 400 lbs. less weight.
99em3: We will have priving and availability soon. Stay tuned.
Last edited by vadim@evosport; 03-19-2004 at 02:03 PM.
03-19-2004, 02:01 PM
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s4iscool: Sorry, missed your original question.
Supersprint will likely be a single muffler like stock. Once C55 hits the streets we will see if it's quads can be adopted to C32.
Supersprint will likely be a single muffler like stock. Once C55 hits the streets we will see if it's quads can be adopted to C32.
03-19-2004, 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by vadim@evosport
s4iscool: Sorry, missed your original question.
Supersprint will likely be a single muffler like stock. Once C55 hits the streets we will see if it's quads can be adopted to C32.
s4iscool: Sorry, missed your original question.
Supersprint will likely be a single muffler like stock. Once C55 hits the streets we will see if it's quads can be adopted to C32.
03-19-2004, 05:46 PM
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2006 Corvette Coupe
A summary and a few questions
I've been reviewing all the R&D posts I can find and took a few notes as I've reviewed them. I believe this summary is accurate and hope others find it helpful. At the end I have a few questions too.
R&D 3 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=17105)
Prototype pulley system adds 15-20 HP but IAT goes high after a while.
R&D 4 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=18979)
Prototype pulley system adds 15 HP peak-to-peak and +20 HP mid-range. Vadim’s test car dynos at 283 HP, 282 ft-lbs.
R&D 5 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ighlight=R%26D)
Prototype pulley system with intercooler capacity upgrade adds 20-25 HP and 20-25 ft-lbs. Use of colder spark plugs results in no additional power. SL55 splitter adds 3-5 HP and yields crisper throttle response.
R&D 6 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ighlight=R%26D)
ODPS product announced and includes pulley system and intercooler capacity upgrade. Estimated installation time is 6 hours. SL55 splitter (not part of ODPS) installation requires use of custom hoses.
R&D 7 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ight=Powerchip)
Powerchips software adds an additional 12 HP and 25 ft-lbs beyond ODPS alone. This combination becomes Stage I, as of January 2004 was MSRP at $2890 and on sale at $2690. (Vadim’s test car dyno’s at 314 [+31] HP, 284 [+2?!?!] ft-lbs)
Stage I combination plus headers develops 47 HP / 50 ft-lbs beyond ODPS alone for 91 octane gas and 57 HP / 50 ft-lbs for 93 octane gas. (Vadim’s test car dynos at 316 HP [+33], 296 [+14] ft-lbs)
R&D 8 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ighlight=R%26D)
Stage I combination plus (1) SL55 splitter with custom hoses, (2) high flow air filters, and (3) 8mm spark plug wires yields additional 30 HP and 26 ft-lbs. It is noted that test conditions include using Denso Iridium spark plugs gapped at 0.035 inch. (Vadim’s test car dynos at 332 [+40] HP, 284 [+2 ?!?] ft-lbs)
Stage I combination plus (1) SL55 splitter with custom hoses, (2) high flow air filters, (3) 8mm spark plug wires, and (4) new software yields increased power. This becomes Stage II, as of January 2004 was MSRP at $5490 and on sale for $5290. (Vadim’s test car dynos at 359 [+76] HP, 352 [+70] ft-lbs). (Assuming test was done using the above-noted Denso Iridium spark plugs gapped at 0.035 inch.)
R&D 9 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=63777)
Many new modifications shown. Projected total combination to equal 420 – 425 HP.
----
Now a few questions...
Is the torque number for the Vadim’s baseline correct in R&D 4? (The torque graph clearly states “MAX TORQUE = 282.5”)
R&D 8 notes that test results were obtained using Denso Iridum spark plugs gapped at 0.035 inch. What is the stock gapping? What qualitative difference is between the Denso plug and the stock plug?
What’s the recommended installation time for Stage I, is it 6 hours?
What’s the recommended installation time for Stage II?
What’s the turn-around time for ECU software updates? Upon arrival at Evosport can/does Evosport turn it around the same day and send it back via next-day delivery?
R&D 3 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=17105)
Prototype pulley system adds 15-20 HP but IAT goes high after a while.
R&D 4 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=18979)
Prototype pulley system adds 15 HP peak-to-peak and +20 HP mid-range. Vadim’s test car dynos at 283 HP, 282 ft-lbs.
R&D 5 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ighlight=R%26D)
Prototype pulley system with intercooler capacity upgrade adds 20-25 HP and 20-25 ft-lbs. Use of colder spark plugs results in no additional power. SL55 splitter adds 3-5 HP and yields crisper throttle response.
R&D 6 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ighlight=R%26D)
ODPS product announced and includes pulley system and intercooler capacity upgrade. Estimated installation time is 6 hours. SL55 splitter (not part of ODPS) installation requires use of custom hoses.
R&D 7 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ight=Powerchip)
Powerchips software adds an additional 12 HP and 25 ft-lbs beyond ODPS alone. This combination becomes Stage I, as of January 2004 was MSRP at $2890 and on sale at $2690. (Vadim’s test car dyno’s at 314 [+31] HP, 284 [+2?!?!] ft-lbs)
Stage I combination plus headers develops 47 HP / 50 ft-lbs beyond ODPS alone for 91 octane gas and 57 HP / 50 ft-lbs for 93 octane gas. (Vadim’s test car dynos at 316 HP [+33], 296 [+14] ft-lbs)
R&D 8 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ighlight=R%26D)
Stage I combination plus (1) SL55 splitter with custom hoses, (2) high flow air filters, and (3) 8mm spark plug wires yields additional 30 HP and 26 ft-lbs. It is noted that test conditions include using Denso Iridium spark plugs gapped at 0.035 inch. (Vadim’s test car dynos at 332 [+40] HP, 284 [+2 ?!?] ft-lbs)
Stage I combination plus (1) SL55 splitter with custom hoses, (2) high flow air filters, (3) 8mm spark plug wires, and (4) new software yields increased power. This becomes Stage II, as of January 2004 was MSRP at $5490 and on sale for $5290. (Vadim’s test car dynos at 359 [+76] HP, 352 [+70] ft-lbs). (Assuming test was done using the above-noted Denso Iridium spark plugs gapped at 0.035 inch.)
R&D 9 (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=63777)
Many new modifications shown. Projected total combination to equal 420 – 425 HP.
----
Now a few questions...
Is the torque number for the Vadim’s baseline correct in R&D 4? (The torque graph clearly states “MAX TORQUE = 282.5”)
R&D 8 notes that test results were obtained using Denso Iridum spark plugs gapped at 0.035 inch. What is the stock gapping? What qualitative difference is between the Denso plug and the stock plug?
What’s the recommended installation time for Stage I, is it 6 hours?
What’s the recommended installation time for Stage II?
What’s the turn-around time for ECU software updates? Upon arrival at Evosport can/does Evosport turn it around the same day and send it back via next-day delivery?
Last edited by cschow; 03-19-2004 at 08:44 PM.
03-19-2004, 08:25 PM
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Audi C7.5 S6
cschow
Thanks for summarizing in one place, since most of this stuff is NOT on the Evosport website.
After the recall flash, do we get a different result with the StageI ECU upgrade?
Has anyone tried it?
After the recall flash, do we get a different result with the StageI ECU upgrade?
Has anyone tried it?
03-20-2004, 12:22 AM
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AMG C43, 1999
Vadim,
I guess it's not possible to raise the fuel pressure to gain more flow out of the stock injectors? Or will that result in a very high duty cycle and then shorten the life of the injector
Jeff
I guess it's not possible to raise the fuel pressure to gain more flow out of the stock injectors? Or will that result in a very high duty cycle and then shorten the life of the injector
Jeff
