Renn 208

Given that I'm not the most technical person in the world, I'm not even sure that this post will add information. But, if it helps...

jbruce

1.) Drive a BMW with an LSD and see if its noisy. But be careful, don't drive an E46 M3 on the track or they'll be no turning back:-)

2.) Many clutch type diffs can use Mobil 1 or Red Line 75w90. Nothing exotic or to be feared.

4.) true

5). Ok, yes the diff can be plug and play but how well did it handle? You may get lucky but you never know. I've had several friends try Quaife's on BMWs and have to change there suspension set ups to make it work. I would be happy if someone is willing to do all the sorting.

3800-6300euro and you can't even get them here? That's ridiculous. I'd be raving mad to MB/AMG that they don't make an LSD available on this car. I hope they read these forums and get their act together. Or better yet you guys should start writing email/letters to them as owners. Get the owners on the other AMG boards to join you.

430

1) I have driven an E46. Very nice, fun car, and no I did not notice the diff noise. I have driven other applications where they are very noticable and very loud. I did not realize the LSD was of the clutch type. I would have guessed viscous.

2) Not sure about this one way or another. I do know people that spend ~$45 every diff fluid change at intervals of no more than 30k miles.

5) Car handled great. It was just an LSD so I went from 1 wheel spinning to 2 wheels. Outside of additional traction no change in handling. The car that did the install sets up many SCCA racers.

Hopefully there will be enough interest generated to get us an LSD at a reasonable price.

otoupalik

The e46 M3 is not a clutch type diff. In fact, that is one of the things we do to to upgrade it. It is viscous from the factory.

Thanks

Brad

derAMG

i thought most factory LSD are viscous type?

rage2

That's not true. If that was the case, this would not be possible:

http://www.virgeweb.com/rage2/misc/SLKASRDemo.wmv

ESP light blinks throughout the slide even though it's off (I'm assuming that's ASR LSD simulator triggering). And the rear rotor on the inside wheel overheats and discolors. ASR does try to get the wheelspeeds back together (LSD simulation), but obviously from the tiresmoke on the inside wheel, the ASR system is overwhelmed and it's not working. There's still some wheelspin on the outside wheel thanks to ASR, which allows the slide to be held for that long.

I spoke with Kleemann regarding their LSD package offered on their web site, it's only available to V8's. Sorry, no C32 or SLK32's. They did also tell me that there's no ESP reprogramming required. The ASR portion of the code will never get triggered with the LSD in place. Also, the ESP system is designed to work with both ASR working properly (ie wheelspeeds close) as well as when one tire is off way faster than the other as shown in my video.

BTW - I'm up for the LSD if its in the $1500usd range.

smgC32

Very nice car control. I like the last jog through the last cone that requires you to change direction.

Most advertised Quaife's in the mags this month are typically $895.00.

My rear brakes are fine and not overheating during extended drifts, nor were my fronts when running CW with equal tire circumference.

Lucas

The C32 / SLK32 use a large case V8 rear axle ( same as W210 E55 ), so KLEEMANN have the LSD in the program for these cars.

rage2

I'll call again tomorrow. The guy I spoke with said it's not available for C or SLK class, regardless if it's the 32.

Renn 208

now that's kind of a funny way to respond.

Zeppelin

Well if it is not true then MB is lying in there own Technical Papers on the operation of ASR. Besides if you turn ESP off through the switch you are turning off ASR, not ESP. The fact that the triangle is flashing is just telling you that ESP is being triggered. I am unable to view the video due too some codec issue.

smgC32

Can someone post the technical descriptives on this alphabet soup.

Regarding the video, this illistrates how the open differential behaves during a power slide/drift through a radius corner. The inside or passenger side rear tire in this example is spinning more as it has the least traction. If a LSD from any manufacturer was installed, would you be able to execute this same manuver? Less wheel spin, less attitude? Same wheel spin, only both sides spinning at the same rate? Easier to control during manuver or more difficult? The LSD may lower my points and smoke factor at the next drift competition!

rage2

I haven't read the ASR technical paper, so I can't comment. As for clicking ESP off, that turns off ESP, otherwise you would not be able to get sideways at all under normal circumstances.

Here's my experience with ESP behavior. All based on track experience experimenting with ESP. I'm sure the evosport guys can comment on this too, as they've done a lot of track time with their C32.

With ESP on, the first 2 laps around the track, you'll be slow. It'll start braking at 9/10ths entry speeds into all the corners. It basically won't allow ANY additional slip angle as compared to where you're steering. Because of this, it'll slow down entry speed significantly to bring you down to about 5 or 6/10ths cornering speeds. At exit, it'll also restrict power because it doesn't want any rear slip angles, so exit speeds are horrible.

After about 2 laps on the track, it realizes that you're on the track and want to go hard, so it starts to allow SOME slip angles. You won't be able to get extreme angles like in the video I posted, but you'll be able to get some, enough to drive really fast. In some cases, if you enter the corner too fast, it'll be able to correct it by lightly braking an individual wheel, so you don't spin out, but still sustain the entire mid section of the corner at the limits. very Fast in-fast out, a little faster than with no traction control thanks to the quicker turn in. I have telemetry from GPS data logger to prove this behavior. It's hard to replicate because if you do go past a certain threashold, ESP kicks in HARD and you lose a lot of speed.

OK, now with ESP off. Magazines and people have complained that with ESP off the system is still sort of engaged, some sort of a backup system. In most track driving situations, if you're aiming for speed, ESP will not trigger at all. It'll only blink at exit, when you lay down too much power, which is the ASR LSD simulator trying to get the wheelspeeds back in sync.

So when does this backup system trigger? I've had it trigger in 3 situations.

1. When I apply moderate brakes mid corner to adjust the attitude of the car during a drift, it'll kick in and slow things down ruining everything. Very light taps on the brakes will work fine, moderate to hard will have the system ABS'ing a bunch of individual wheels to try to stop you.

2. When you turn into a corner hard to get the rear to swing out, it thinks it's in an emergency lane change situation, and doesn't allow rear end to slide out. If you watch my video, you'll notice I'm gentle turning in to get the rear to progressively slide out. This is done to not trigger "backup ESP" in this situation.

3. When you try to transistion from a left drift to a right drift, if the transition is too hard, it'll kick in because it thinks you're in a "tank slapper" situation and basically slow the car down huge. Same theory as #2, thinks it's an emergency lane change situation.

So there you have it, my run down of ESP and how to work around it. I haven't read any white papers at all, this is all from a lot of experimenting on the track to understand the system more.
If an LSD was installed, drifting would be different, and much easier to control. Your throttle response would actually result in control of the slide. You'd be on the throttle less, and yes, it'd be a lot less smoke .

In this video example, if you listen to the engine note carefully, I'm varying throttle from ZERO to WOT constantly. Gives a lot of smoke (and wear) on the inside tires, but it's the only way to get some slip on the outside tire from ASR putting a bit of pressure on that inside wheel. With a real LSD, a lot less throttle for the same drift angle/line, and a lot less tire wear.

jbruce

As Rage2 said you definitely want an LSD for drifting. If you are using clutch type LSDs you want a pretty high lock-up % like 60-80%. The drifting topic brings up an interesting idea. Perahps an LSD company that cators to drifters would be more flixible and willing to work on a C32 LSD. Kaaz perhaps http://www.kaazusa.com/

otoupalik

I think that the Kleemann might be a great way to go. This is news to me that Kleemann actualyl has a diff that will work, but if they do, it is worht a serious look. Brandon (Kleemann US) has a great knowledge about MBZ differentials and has the computer capabilities to make some things work that others cannot.

Brandon?

Thanks

Brad

lap

a LESS instrusive ESP for starters. I would probably spend $ on this mod b4 the Pulley Upgrade (which is also on my scope for next year)!

TIA
lap

Prasith32

some good posts on the LSD option by AMG here

http://www.amg-owners-club.org/board...?threadid=1787



Here is the thread with a bunch of links on the topic

http://www.amg-owners-club.org/board...?threadid=5301

Prasith32

Lap,

If the LSD is doing its job I suspect that the ESP would be less intrusive by the general nature of the programming. However you never know as even little tire imbalances seem to affect it at certain places.

Prasith

rage2

Spoke with Kleemann again, different guy.

The LSD *is* available for C32 and SLK32, so Lucas was right! (thanks). $2300 for the kit, you take the diff out, open it up, and instructions on installation of everything is provided with the kit. Gear oil is included as well. The installation of the kit takes about 2 hours. The tough part is the removal and reinstallation of the differential itself. No ESP adjustments, they've had zero problems during testing.

There is no quantity purchase price. $2300 is the price, that's it.

Zeppelin

Any more info on the Kleeman LSD:

Is it a Clutch type?
Is it a Viscous type?
What percent locking is it
Can it really be installed in 2 hours by a shadetree mechanic? Or does the backlash/endplay/gearmesh pattern all have to be adjusted(therefore big buck install)

derAMG

damn... far off than smgc32 suggested price on the Quaiffe...
i wish Quaiffe will make some in the future... and Cheaper!

i went track lap today... i driven so hard that pulling 2 stis and 1 stock supra away or catching them up from behind... but man, our car needs LSD
i can't believe the only one close to me was a E36 328is with cam, manifold, LSD, finalgear and suspension mods. That car is soooo fast in the corner...

Brandon @ Kleemann

KLEEMANN has a LSD mechanism for the C32AMG. I dont know WHO anyone talked to that said we didnt have one, but we do. The C32AMG has a "large housing" V8 rear with "early" W140 planetary gears, the new C55 has the 600 bi-turbo planetaries. We will have a LSD mechanism for that rear in a few weeks.

Meanwhile contact EvoSport for your C32AMG LSD needs. $2300 for the package, requires skilled installation.

cschow

Can Evosport and/or Kleemann confirm that the Kleemann differential is capable of withstanding the power/torque of a C32 modified with Evo's performance upgrades? My stage-1, Y-pipe, and plug/wires should be on their way to me from Evo soon

A bit off topic here, but anyone who got Evo stage 1 with the raised Vmax limiter is lucky! I inquired about this with my stage-1 but apparently its now only part of the stage-2 software.

smgC32

PM me if you are interested in a Quaife.

Zeppelin

Since it has been installed in the E55 with 500 plus lb/ft of torque I am sure it would hold up quite well in any moddified C32