Prasith32

steve,

sent you a pm. email me when you get a chance.

I will be able to give a full deposit but I have a lot of questions that I want to sort through first.

I kind of like the fact that it will be a special made part - makes me feel special somehow.

Also being out here where there are no mercedes tuners the install and subsequent troubleshooting of it is a big 'if' for me and over everything else that is probably my biggest issue with a mod like this. I simply do not trust my dealer to do such an install.

Unfortunately I won't be coming to california until late september so I hope we will still have a chance to meet then.

Prasith

otoupalik

We are not interested in doing quantity with Quaif. If we build one for track use, it will be by our BMW diff builder. We are looking at havng these done now as it is. This way, it woudl likely be much cheaper then $3K each.

Thanks

Brad

Zeppelin

Currently I am not in the market to make anymore mods to my C32, but if the price were down in the $1500 range I might be in. That would allow about $500 for the install and still keep the price about $2000. Maybe a year from now when my warranty is up I might spend more, but that does not help any now.

Has anyone asked any of the E55 owners whether they might want one. My understanding is that it is the same rear-end.

430

If the price gets down closer to $2k count me in.

Vadim @ evosport

Like I said before, it is a chicken and egg situation.

I think most of C32/55 guys know what I mean.

Prasith32

steve,

Thanks for your email. I am thinking over some stuff and will write back soon. Would this LSD be applicable to any other Mercedes AMG models? That may help to get more input.


Brad, Vadim,

What type of diff would you guys build if any? I would really like to hear your inputs and more information on this.

Are you allowed to share the name of the BMW diff builder. Maybe we can all work together so that we can all get a diff at a lower cost and you will have r&d done already to sell at higher numbers to interested parties.

Also as you can see from the number of pages on this topic there are lots of interested owners.

Does the Crossfire use a similar tranny (with no LSD)? I know this question has been posed before. Anybody know a definitive answer?

All,

I think this is a great opportunity for a group of enthusiasts to get together and specify a product that will help out the characteristics of our car. The people in porsche/bmw clubs do this all the time and come up with one-off upgrades put together by the inputs of a group of owners.

This can be an opportunity for everyone to provide input and tailor make a component that will improve a big shortcoming in our cars. The LSD is not only good for the track/canyon people but also for the 1/4 milers. Not to mention getting that darn ESP to cut in less.

Also I would think that the people with pulley's etc would need this even more. I can't keep my meager 349 horses in bay. How do yall mange with 400+ or like the 500hp (a select few are doing)

There are already a few committed buyers, the more we get the better the deal can be. If you were thinking of a mod we should try and get a list of people who can do it.




Prasith

smgC32

We can continue our conversation here.

BrandonG, How does the Kleemann or EvoSports LSD design differ from a traditional clutch pack layout?

Zeppelin

SMG,

Here is what I have on the Kleemann unit.

"The KLEEMANN LSD upgrade uses what we call a "spring-plate" locking
mechanism. This is simply two pieces of machined, hardened steel with 4
springs located at the 4 corners of the "sandwiched" locking mechanism. The
springs apply pressure to the locking plate, which in turn locks the two
pinion gears together. Our LSD is classified as a 60% torque bias. This
upgrade is more than capable of handling the torque your C32 is making. We
have installed this upgrade on vehicles producing close to 600 lb/ft. of
torque with no problems. "

setUout

if it works on the c55 im very intrested in picking one up.

smgC32

We're over here Harris.

smgC32

Well, there you have it. Just like last time we did this. No serious buyers out there for a LSD that is better than any other on the market that can be made for less money than any other LSD that is or will become available from AMG, Kleemann, Evosport, or others. This is the exact reason you don't see availability for a LSD on a mercedes from the major players because there are so few interested buyers that it is not worth the effort, and if they are made, you have to pay out the nose for one. The Quaife LSD for a VW for $995 is that price, not because it is any different than the Porsche one, but because they sell a lot of them and can offer them at a lower cost. All we need is five committed people, and we can have an LSD below $2,500.00 that will blow away the competition. At the prices of the others, I will just have to make a one off unit for myself for only a few dollars more...

Zeppelin

SMG,

You know you can count me in on one for under $3k, but we need to find a way to get a complete diff to Quaife. I can't go without one for more than a month. I thought about buying 30ea. of the Quaife LSD's for $1000 and selling them for $1100, but I doubt I could even get 10 people to purchase one for that price.

rbaker

I'm coming in late to this topic, but I'd be interested if pricing was in the $1500 ballpark. If so, count me in and PM me.

SteveL

smgc32, Zeppelin: I'd be willing to put up 10K towards getting 30 made and trying to sell the other 27 diffs over time. I'd even be fine with selling them for $1000 plus shipping each. I don't really care about making money on the diffs, I would just like to get a hold of one.

I figure the AMG LSD will be around $4K with the current exchange rate. If we could get 2 or 3 more people to go in, it would reduce the price to $5-6K which isn't that much more than the AMG unit. As the diffs sell, we evenly spilt the money when someone buys one and our unit becomes cheaper each time. It might take a couple of years but I bet our units would at least become less expensive than the AMG unit.

However, one issue might be, can a single LSD be made that will work on all C32/SLK32s. When I was thinking about getting the Kleemann unit, Brandon told me that there are more than version of the diff. Also, because I have an SLK32, it would have to work for an SLK32. I'm almost sure that the C32 and SLK32 have the same diff so it shouldn't be an issue.

Thoughts?

Zeppelin

Steve,

SMG and I have been thinking of this for a long time. We would sell them at cost if you could be garanteed to sell all 30. The problem is that there are probably only 10 people left in the world that would buy an LSD, so whether you charge $1000 or $3000 they will buy it.

We have a better chance of having maybe 3ea. made at maybe $3000 ea. Then we have our LSD's. One problem is that to have the diff made we need to get a complete rearend to Europe for fitting.

If Kleemann or others that have made their own LSD's had just had a batch of 30 made by Quaife, they could of sold all 30 of them at $2500-$3000. That's 150-200% profit. I guess business wise that was not enough profit therefore they made there own.

noka

I am interested in the LSD for my C55, since I had it in all my BMW M cars and feel like I'm missing something (even though in reality maybe I don't need it because I don't track my car, etc). However, I have some concerns:

1. Will LSD work with C55 (not just C32)?
2. Any modifications required (like Kleemann unit)?
3. Not sure where I can get installed (Boston area).
4. Will they fit LSD in C55 or just use stock diff on bench to compare?
5. Does price include core credit or can I keep in case LSD blows up?

Well, sorry for all the questions and I understand if nobody will answer them because I tend to be a bit **** and worry about such things.


Rgds,
Norm

otoupalik

It was not a profit issue for us, it was that we simply do not favor the quaif diff. We prefer salisberry style diffs.

I personally HATE the quaif. On a big heavy rear-wheel drive car, I find them horrible balky and do not like the power delivery or the decel. They seem to work awesome on light and/or front-drive cars though.

Of course this is all subjective, as is SMG's and Zep's thoughts.

So where does that leave us? Well, it leaves us in this situation, with no diffs!

There is another option, but I don't want to discuss it in this Quaif thread.

Thanks,
Brad

smgC32

Hey Brad. I am curious to know if you think that a BMW E36 (not a light car) with a Quaife drives worse than a 40% locking unit, as I am sure you have driven both. My E36 drives flawlessly with the Quaife and the power transition is seamless compared to a 40% locker which is noticely more abrupt. The Quaife on a Audi S4 I had driven also worked quite well. None of us have driven a Mercedes with a Quaife so we should not rule them out as inferior. How do you compare the BMW M5 with a stock, locker, and Quaife LSD if you have had a chance to drive them all?

With all the power that our cars make, a 30-60% locking differential will be overcome quickly at every turn exit with full power delivery at the track. The more hp and tq you make, the faster the breakaway. It is for this reason that I suggest that the Quaife is the solution in reducing wheel spin and keeping the power to the ground. For the street, most won't explore the limits of the car, but if I had my choice on a tight mountain road, I would prefer the variable locking differential to a locker when the transition was about to happen from locked to open. The higher the lock, the more abrupt the transistion.

Do you know if all new C and SLK's have the same differentials and housings? Any other model share the differential?

jbruce

Brad does make a good point that a Quaife may not be an optimal solution. While I have driven some front drive cars where a Quaife was any easy plug and play solution, I have also seen some rear drive cars (E30 and E36 M3 come to mind) where the suspension had to be retuned to work with a Quaife. The only way to know how it will work with a C32 is to make a protoype diff and take it out to the track for testing, and see how it affects the balance and handling of the car. Ideally you would test it back to back with the AMG unit to figure out which one is more effective. Personally, being happy with the way clutch type LSDs work in BMWs and the fact that AMG and Kleeman have soloutions engineered, I would prefer either getting together a group deal or finding another source for clutch type LSDs.

Also, I would start a letter writting campaign to MB USA to get LSDs as a resonable cost option. Thus we could prevent this issue with future models.

Juan Bruce

noka

Given the above discussion, I think I'll look at the AMG solution. I agree that MBUSA should offer an option (reasonably priced, of course). Otherwise, the least they could do is to allow authorized dealers to install it.

Rgds,
Norm

smgC32

We politely moved the Quaife discussion away from the AMG LSD thread after Harris was upset and EvoSport interveined and ask that we stop and create another thread. So we did. Actually, we brought up an old Quaife thread to discuss the Quaife LSD so as to not interfere with the other discussions going on and keep tempers at bay. Well instead of Evosport asking to move non Quaife discussions back to their original home, Brad himself bashes the Quaife in public in a Quaife thread rather than stating that he likes the clutch pack solution better in the AMG LSD thread.

For the record, Evosport had inquired to Quaife North America for production costs on a run of 30 units around the time this whole discussion was first brought up. If they didn't believe in the Quaife solution in the first place because they were inferior for our car, then why the call? You can confirm this inquiry with Quaife directly who doesn't care who the buyer is and will place an order with anyone.

There is more profit to be had in the unit Evosport wants to sell and it will be exclusive with them unless you happen to know the manufacturer who is making them for Evosport and can buy them under the radar at a lower cost.

As to the statement about havng to tune the suspension for an M3 to accomodate the Quaife, would you please elaborate for us, as this statement does not appear to be from first hand experience as is mine.

I have never bashed the AMG, Kleemann, or Evosport LSD. I have just stated that I truely beileve that the Quaife is a better unit overall, especially at the track. And it has a warranty! And the typical parts that wear out in a clutch pack design, never wear out in a Quaife because they don't exist within a Quaife. That's why there are patents and no one has copied Quaife's design, which is simple and superior in its mechanical execution to other LSD's.

Cheers.

otoupalik

I am not here to go tit for tat - that is pointless. This will be my only reply to you.

However, I never bashed the Quaife. I gave my personal thoughts, and characterized them as MY thoughts. Using words like "personally" and comments like "this is all subjective" clearly illustrate that I was neither bashing, stating fact, disproving anyone else, etc. I do have a bit of experience being a race car builder, paid suspension tuner, personal coach, professionally licensed racer, etc. Take this for what you will, it all means something to some and nothing to others, I am OK with that. But it is REAL experience that I have had, and it was stated as such.

I have yet to respond to the follow up questions due to being out yesterday. I will do so today (unless I am not allowed to have an opinion as your post seems to imply). You are always so quick to jump on me and our company, seems to be a personal agenda there, so have at it. Doesn't really help anyone, but if it makes you feel good, please continue!

We did inquire with Quaife. Actually, Vadim did. Nothing to hide. When a company is going to build a product, it is just prudent business to know who else is doing what and at what cost. Furthermore, although I don't like the Quaife, if they would have has something available immediately and/or in small quantity runs, then we would have offered it to those that did not want to wait for other solutions. Again, nothing deceptive or shady here, but again, you can try to spin it that way. That dog just does not hunt.

On the profit issue, you are again off base. As you are assuming so many facts that even we don't have I find it straight laughable that you can comment on margin, etc. I mean, seriously. Furthermore, if we spend money on R&D, then yes, we do expect to make a profit that will cover that and still keep the lights and and salaries paid. Nothing unethical about this, it is called free-market economics.

As for Juan, you are once again off base. Juan is an avid track driver and instructor. He was also a long time BMW M3 owner and a very knowledgeable and experienced driver.

Your last paragraph is very comical. I have also never bashed, just stated opinion. Why so hypocritical. Why is it ok for you to post your opinion, and not me? That is not a rhetorical question, please answer it!

I will not talk about the benefits of a clutch pack LSD or the warranty here, as again, I think it is not appropriate to do so. However, I am sure that when and if we start a thread on a different option, you will be there to bash and mention the word Quaife as often as you can.

Back on topic please..... (which I thought I was doing by giving my experience and thoughts)

Thanks,
Brad

otoupalik

I do in fact not like the Quaife in an e36. Is it worse or better, that is a subjective answer. I do not like it as much. So for me, it is worse.

I have driven e36's with OE, Motorsport LSD's (ie: gruppeN), Kaaz, Quaife, Diff's-on-line, Blanton and a locker (yes, 100 locking). I simply prefer the clutch-pack Salisberry style diff. I did not like the Quaife at all. The Kaaz is a similar theory, and I liked the way it applied the power and the way it worked on decel much better then the Quaife. In fact, we are using the Kaaz on e46 M3's as well as the Salisberry style clutch-pack diffs. The locker was joke, as the car just did not want to turn. Was a total handful. Of course, as Juan as alluded to, you need to set-up the suspension properly for any real performance diff.

On the M5, I have only driven clutch-pack style diffs. However, I have driven a few 540's with Quaife's on track and the auto-x track. I disliked the Quaife even more in this car. Again, this was a subjective thing. I know someone in a 540 who loves his Quaife. Was not for my liking.

Thanks,
Brad