ohlord

the picture to progressive insurance.They could use it in an ad for being there pronto when you need them
and you could use the cash for the next one

SeeKlasse

Sweet! haha im gonna try it!

ProjectC55

Well I'll say this ,I've never seen anything in the history reports stating a tranny chg in my 98 C43, but now my 98 C43 has 100,005 miles and I'll assume the original tranny. With frequent tranny fluid and filter chgs with Amsoil ATF synthetic and a new MB filter with each chg,this baby still shifts like a charm ,even with the abuse from the massive tq from my 5.5L engine.

So who is to say which tranny is more durable than which.

Kropf

Do you know how many miles were on the original fluid when it was relieved of its duty?

My current belief is that the 722.631, 722.621, and maybe even the 722.602 can each handle the torque if they haven't been worn out with thick, unchanged fluid.

The filter consists of a simple 1/8" or less thin sheet of cloth that can only retain solid pieces. There is certainly not enough material and depth to retain contaminates such as the friction material worn off of the friction plates. Therefore, such abrasive contaminates remain suspended and end up turning a lubricating fluid into a wear inducing slurry.

My guess is that if the tranny has not had its filter and most importantly its fluid replaced within 30,000 or at most 50,000 miles, then that tranny may be worn past a point of no return, and most likely not capable of a 155,000 mile Mercedes-Benz Classic High Mileage Award!

Because Mercedes-Benz not only recommended that the transmission fluid never be changed, but even prevented the casual checking of fluid via an equipped dip stick ("Regular automatic transmission fluid level checks and changes are not required. For this reason the dipstick is omitted."), Mercedes-Benz should bear accountability in all such transmission failures!!!

svt ricco

+1!

mis-u-jerr

Here here and HALE yeah!
Maybe I should keep my parts (um...chunks?) for use as evidence later?

Kropf

Ah, YEAHHHH!!!!
In fact, since you have already had LOTS of dealer/warranty tinkering with yours:
I'd be on a tear to MBUSA if I were you!

Actually, ... with all the tranny catastrophes I've read about here lately, I'd say we have the basis for another situation similar to what was reported on a previous unrelated post:

...there was a class action law suit on MBUSA, and part of the settlement was an extension of the factory warranty on engines in their '98 thru '01 model years to 10yrs/150K miles for ALL MB owners.
Some moron used regular oil in his MB and screwed up his engine, then he suit claiming the manual didnt indicated that he needed synthentic.

I was a bit skeptical when i heard this and i call MB customer relations to confirm this. There number is Customer Relations 1-800-367-6372, i spoke to Bill and he confirmed this. He told me it only covers the engine and damage only from sludge build up, up to 150K. Basically all internally lubricated parts. He also told me that all MB dealers are aware of this and they should cover the vehicle. ...

Does anyone believe that we actually have even a better basis for such relief from MB-USA?

If some agreement, I'll create a web page where owners can register their name & contact info, VIN, date/mileage of failure, amount paid to repair, etc.

ProjectC55

Good question but I have no idea.

mis-u-jerr

Thanks. There has got to be some lawyers on this list, anyone want to take up the cause?? I know of at least 10-15 on the boards alone that have had trouble. There is a similar thread on club202.com, I don't know if is all the same people or not but here is that link:
http://www.club202.com/forums/showth...&threadid=7639
Thanks for the advice.

c43padre

Another 631 checking in. Torrington bearing failure. Bearings and shavings in the pan at 90K. Sun Valley quoted $2750 for a rebuilt one with improved roller bearings.

Did anyone have the VRP "Bullet Trans" installed? What were the impressions? I see VRUS is banned, is there any connection?

benthebenzguy

ausmbtech check wis info and you will find amg transmissions vs. other transmissions use the maximum amount of clutches, when you go to check clearance if ask you how many you have and what the clearance spec is b1 to b3 and k1 to k3, I have found the weaker transmissions have 4 clutches vs. the amg have max. i took apart an s65 trans and found i could swap the parts, main difference clutches! If you check epc you will find the two one way rollers all swap up to the same numbers i believe. when i do my engine and trans swap from a clk55 w208 i will rebuild my stock transmission and put the max clutches in, just use smaller metal intermediate plates and adjust clearance with snap ring and metal plate combination. btw i have done the blue top solenoid mod that hooley boy did in his c55 OMG the full throttle shifts are fast and firm even in my valve body I took them out of the valve body from my s65 trans, only draw back very firm 1-2 and 2-3 slow shifts and aggressive downshifts i will post pics in a new thread. good luck and keep us updated.

Ausmbtech

The transmission failures most people are experiencing have nothing to do with clutch packs and clutch pack torque capacity. Pretty much all C43 transmission failures are related to bearings failing. My 722.621 had a bronze bush instead of a bearing where the input and output shafts meet. This bush was pretty worn. I've always expected a bearing on early V8's and all late model boxes and to only find a bush on small engines early transmissions. This has let me to beleive that this could be contributing to the failures.

I SUSPECT that if this bush wears sufficiently then the input and output shafts can move under high torque and get a very very small angle between them rather than dead straight. When at an angle then they put very large stresses on the rest of the bearings as they rotate at an angle which results in an eventual complete failure.

In any event, regular oil and filter changes with only approved oils help maintain longer life. A failure than occur with or without oil changes, but oil is cheap and it's a good way to help extend life and performance. NOTE: if your transmission sump doesn't have a magnet in it then fit one!!!! you'd be surprised what it catches.

Common mechanical failures, causes and corrections:

Sprags: There are 2 one way clutches (sprags) fitted to the 722.6 transmission. They do fail, but when they do they don't really cause much other damage as most of the small parts are captive so the damage doesn't spread. The rear sprag fails most often, it usually causes a poor 3-2 downshift or a flairing 2-3 upshift. Updated sprags are more robust, "high performance" sprags are available, but not nessasary. the transmission needs to be disassembled for repair.

Valve body pressure regulator spring: The pressure regulator valve spring breaks inside the valvebody, more common on early models (1996-1998). Causes generally weak and slipping shifts in all gears. Transmission doesn't require removal, valve body needs to be removed for repair. Parts are available

Whining noise, only after driving for a while, goes to limp mode if you continue driving: Common sign of a blocked transmission filter. Drain the oil from the sump, torque convertor, wipe/clean any debris from the pan and valvebody sides and repalce the filter. Refill with only approved transmission oil. If the fault reoccurs within 6months/10,000mi then expect a transmission rebuild coming up due to deteriorating clutch linings.

Sudden failure, loud noises, no drive: Suspect a bearing failure, not much you can do other than rebuild or exchange. Recommend exchange due to fixed costs of repair.

Ausmbtech

There are 2 main 722.6 transmissions. The small (low torque) version with 3 sun gears in the rear planetary gear set and the large one with 4 sun gears. within these 2 base versions there are differing numbers of clutch disks within a clutch pack. This is to give different torque capacities as required at a low cost. The metal plates don't really change in size and the circlip position doesn't change so the piston depth changes to give more or less space for linings. all the varients have different clutch pistons. You can add more linings, it's nothing new. I would try using the newer style single sided linings though as they are less prone to warpage/shuddering. it would be a bit of trial and error.

Don't add to many linings though, you may end up with poor shift quality at low torque load is the transmission is overrated. Just add 1 extra lining per pack if it's a street car. A well built std transmission is more than addiquite unless you start adding superchargers or a modified 55 engine.

benthebenzguy

great info, yeah all the early transmission had the old style planetary, from most of my rebuilds i have found the one way rollers to fail first freewheeling 2-3 upshift, then spread the metal, have you found other bearings to be a weak point in the early transmissions 98-99 that is. also have you noticed any difference in the design of the internals with 240 part numbers like out of the v12 and maybach transmissions. so far i have only taken apart b1, b2 and b3 i have not had time to take apart the rest and compare, i scored a trans out of v12 biturbo from an accident car for free! this transmission has the highest rated torque input. last time i went to school for the 722.9 they said they switched to one sided clutches for cost and weight do you think they are better from a performance standpoint. also the spring in the valve body can be bought from european transmissions online for 15 dollars way better than 500 for a valve body. pm me with any info, i think it is great you are taking the time to find a solution i know alot of the members would like to keep the original parts serial number matching transmissions.

benthebenzguy

also here is a picture from epc can you point out that bearing you feel is failing, i usually just change all the bearings, sprags, etc. i want to make sure i know the one you are talking about, makes alot of sense though since the whining noise is soon followed by the clients crying

benthebenzguy

here are the epc pictures for the c43

MarcusF

Ben, do you rebuild transmissions for Southern Californians? I don’t need one, I’m just wondering. If so, what do you charge? Thanks

benthebenzguy

i worked at the dealership for 17 years but now work at an independent garage in southern california.

yes we do rebuild 722.6 and 722.9 transmissions.

but as ausmbtech has stated cost is the big thing and even his cost in parts to do his transmission correctly is almost the cost of a new unit from a few of the local suppliers.

to rebuild the transmission correctly, update all internals bearings, one way rollers, all clutches with oem parts, replace all seals inside the transmission including disassemble of k1,k2,k3 and b1, b2, b3, replace conductor plate (they fail all the time causing an impermissible slippage code) update valve body to 140 270 0606 has new spring inside that ausmbtech talks about too. also update any internal pieces k2 or modified pistons on early years. also you should have the torque convertor rebuilt we have to send that out more cost. so in the end especially if you have failure ausmbtech talks about that he feels is the bearing failure and i have seen as well and metal is spread through the trans rebuild cost is more than a replacement unit sourced from a company that does this all day long.

low side labor to remove and reinstall 6
low side to d&a and rebuild 10 hours

16 hours at $100 an hour $1600
parts list price and torque converter rebuild at least $2000

$3600 vs. an exchange with a warranty just makes more sense to buy from a transmission shop

http://europeantransmissionscom.x-sh...dea03cfa8318d7

that is the link for one europeantransmissions.com

we also use another local company i got a transmission, torque convertor, updated valve body, and new control unit for my 99e430 $2600 dollars you have to have an acount and a resale license to get that deal though. my cost from the dealer for input and output shaft that was toasted from bearing and one way roller failure was around $1600!

hope this helps, if anybody local does need servicing or other repairs done we do everything in house, tires alignment, service, diagnostics with star diagnosis, and smog

my boss extends a discount on labor and parts to my clients

Ausmbtech

I rebuilt my own transmission, I've done many 722.6's and 722.9's before. It cost approximately $3500AUD. I replace all linings, overhauled valvebody, new electrical plate, rebuilt torque convertor, machined my worn K2 drum (sublet), replaced all seals and bearings. Only genuine parts were used and I already had a free seal kit, oil and a selection of clutch linings. It is expensive, even without labour! I only did it myself for peace of mind, not to save money

I need to rebuild my transmission on my C240 (also 722.6), I'm going to send that to the transmission shop I use for my torque convertors. Labour to R/R transmission, all linings and seals, overhual valvebody, rebuild convertor, dyno test transmission before installation, all oils and a 2 year warranty for $2400 cash and I'll have it back in 3 days. Why would I bother doing it myself?

The bearing/bush I've been finding quite worn in the picture is number 11. If you order it it comes as a roller bearing. If you have an early transmission and you order a new rear shaft you need a new K2 drum because they won't fit together otherwise. The original K2 drums still have a bronze bush, the bush wears heavily with high torque engines which is why they no longer use it. You have to remember that these transmissions have been around for 13-14yrs now.

There is nothing wrong with the double sided linings, they were indead changed to single sided for cost savings. To me i would think the single sided linings would have a more even temperature throughout the clutch pack as opposed to the double sided linings. I have nothing to prove this, it's just something that I have in the back of my head. Neither type has a weakness though. There are 3 main versions of clutches. The double sided with thick metal plates, double sided with thiner metal plates and single sided.

I wouldn't get too caught up with the 240 part numbers though, alot of the late 722.6's use 240 part numbered linings throughout.

MarcusF

Sounds like there are good repairs options available on both sides of the Pacific (Although Sydney is on the Indian Ocean side).

I’m especially impressed with Ben the Benz Guy. Nothing against AusMB-Tech, but a flat bed to Culver City is a little easier for me (So Cal) than however I’d get it to Sydney. But hey, for those in NSW . . . .

The So Cal place I usually recommend is $2800 and you have to bench press your own transmission. Under $4K AND I don’t have to pull the transmission? That’s VERY reasonable.

PJmak

Had a 722631 00 719650 in my car. Have no idea what exactly went wrong but it went bad and it was replaced with a tranny out of a 2001 E55 with around 65k on it. Previous owner did it since hes a mbtech and this is why I bought this particular car

I believe it currently has close to 90k on it. no problems so far "klnocks on wood"

c43padre

I just replaced mine with a rebuild from Sun Valley Auto Dismantlers near Burbank, CA. Mark at SV said to use regular old Dextron in their units, which they did. I have maybe 400 miles on it and it's working great. What is the difference between OEM and Dextron??

Ausmbtech

I really would be changing your oil to a MB spec oil. The main reason for needing the higher spec synthetic oil is to protect and prevent chatering of the torque convertor lockup clutch. A std mineral oil (dextron III) can be used in an emergency, but won't be much good at long term protection or proper operation in temperature extremes (cold starts or high loads).

The torque convertor clutch on these vehilces has a controlled slip between 0 and 120rpm (usually around 30-60rpm). This continued slip will quickly cause burning of a mineral oil which will greatly shortern oil life and hence transmission life. The synthetic oil is much more resistant to these stresses.

c43padre

How much fluid would I need and is there any special procedure to follow to purge the Dextron?

Ausmbtech

Just drain the transmission pan using the drain plug and the torque convertor via it's drain plug. It would be preferable to drop the pan and replace the filter at the smae time, but not essential.

You will need about 7 litres to do a change. You will also need a dipstick to correct the level. There are many available from ebay.

Don't be too worried about getting every last drop out, as long as the bulk of it is out then you will be fine.