C36 on the track
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2007 R320 CDI, 2010 FJ Cruiser, CTS-V
C36 on the track
I am very close to buying a 95 C36. Am wondering how they do on the track. I am mostly worried about the 4 speed auto transmission. I am sure the rest of the car would be fine.
Quick replies would be appreciated.
Thanks
Quick replies would be appreciated.
Thanks
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Apr 2008
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2007 R320 CDI, 2010 FJ Cruiser, CTS-V
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From: Kirkland, WA
500E Signal Rot
Here is what you can expect.
Brake fade. Stock pads and fluid not suitable for the track, calipers and rotors are, so replace fluid and pads.
Grip. Stock tires and most all street tires loose grip after they heat up, good for maybe a 20 minute run before you start sliding everywhere. Best to have a R compound tire for the track.
Suspension. Stock suspension too soft for the track, but if you have H&R and Bilsteins, then your good.
Power. Expect to be passed by turbo 944's, NSX, M3 and most other cars. The power to weight is not good on the C36 and really hurts it performance.
Brake fade. Stock pads and fluid not suitable for the track, calipers and rotors are, so replace fluid and pads.
Grip. Stock tires and most all street tires loose grip after they heat up, good for maybe a 20 minute run before you start sliding everywhere. Best to have a R compound tire for the track.
Suspension. Stock suspension too soft for the track, but if you have H&R and Bilsteins, then your good.
Power. Expect to be passed by turbo 944's, NSX, M3 and most other cars. The power to weight is not good on the C36 and really hurts it performance.
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 199
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2007 R320 CDI, 2010 FJ Cruiser, CTS-V
Thanks
If I am getting passed only by the M3s, that's not too bad. I had four of those (1 E30 M3 race car, 1 E36 M3 autocross car, 2 E46 M3 SMG + manual) ;-)
I found the Bilstein + H&R combo too stiff on my test drive. I am not sure it will do well on the bumpy tracks we have here on the west coast.
Lack of available aftermarket parts for MB in general is of concern to me as I like to tinker with my cars.
If I am getting passed only by the M3s, that's not too bad. I had four of those (1 E30 M3 race car, 1 E36 M3 autocross car, 2 E46 M3 SMG + manual) ;-)
I found the Bilstein + H&R combo too stiff on my test drive. I am not sure it will do well on the bumpy tracks we have here on the west coast.
Lack of available aftermarket parts for MB in general is of concern to me as I like to tinker with my cars.
Here is what you can expect.
Brake fade. Stock pads and fluid not suitable for the track, calipers and rotors are, so replace fluid and pads.
Grip. Stock tires and most all street tires loose grip after they heat up, good for maybe a 20 minute run before you start sliding everywhere. Best to have a R compound tire for the track.
Suspension. Stock suspension too soft for the track, but if you have H&R and Bilsteins, then your good.
Power. Expect to be passed by turbo 944's, NSX, M3 and most other cars. The power to weight is not good on the C36 and really hurts it performance.
Brake fade. Stock pads and fluid not suitable for the track, calipers and rotors are, so replace fluid and pads.
Grip. Stock tires and most all street tires loose grip after they heat up, good for maybe a 20 minute run before you start sliding everywhere. Best to have a R compound tire for the track.
Suspension. Stock suspension too soft for the track, but if you have H&R and Bilsteins, then your good.
Power. Expect to be passed by turbo 944's, NSX, M3 and most other cars. The power to weight is not good on the C36 and really hurts it performance.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Apr 2008
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2007 R320 CDI, 2010 FJ Cruiser, CTS-V
Thanks, BTDT. Looking for a comfortable street car that I can take to the track. I figured I would give AMG a chance before I go buy another M3 :-)
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 316
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From: New York
Stg3 B5S4-C55 AMG
IF you're talking about an E36 M3 I think you'll like the C36 better.
My friend had a 95 pre Obd2 M3 w/ Turner goodies and I spent lots of time behind the wheel.
As far as handling, the M3 has the edge ( if your rear towers are healthy
).....its lighter, has excellent track behavior...blah bla blah.
My reasoning for not getting a 95 M3 myself was the maintenance and durability vs. cost to run factor. They ain't cheap to keep.
Another thing I prefer about the C36 is that its almost always on the cam. Power is not too far away. A quick blip of the throttle and you're just about there.
I was never a big fan of the M3/Honda S2K type powerband. Thats just me.
Although the C36 doesn't dance like an M3.....I would not hesitate taking one on ....down or up a canyon road. You can stuff 265's at the rear of a C36...I think 235's max on an m3.
I'm going to approach Addict Motorsports about custom making me a multi-link rear sway bar w/ heim joints and gussets for my C36, I 'm hoping that in conjunction w/ the bigger H&R front sway bar will turn it into a part-time track ****.
As far as the tranny. The 4 spd auto if well maintained is robust, if not bulletproof. I think its what was used in the 500/600 SL cars, which means the tq rating might be in the hi 390nm's . Just don't get a 97 w/ the 5 spd autotragic.
Here's a pic of the multilink rear setup on the Audi S4 that Addict makes. Can you say " Never Lift "
My friend had a 95 pre Obd2 M3 w/ Turner goodies and I spent lots of time behind the wheel.
As far as handling, the M3 has the edge ( if your rear towers are healthy
).....its lighter, has excellent track behavior...blah bla blah. My reasoning for not getting a 95 M3 myself was the maintenance and durability vs. cost to run factor. They ain't cheap to keep.
Another thing I prefer about the C36 is that its almost always on the cam. Power is not too far away. A quick blip of the throttle and you're just about there.
I was never a big fan of the M3/Honda S2K type powerband. Thats just me.
Although the C36 doesn't dance like an M3.....I would not hesitate taking one on ....down or up a canyon road. You can stuff 265's at the rear of a C36...I think 235's max on an m3.
I'm going to approach Addict Motorsports about custom making me a multi-link rear sway bar w/ heim joints and gussets for my C36, I 'm hoping that in conjunction w/ the bigger H&R front sway bar will turn it into a part-time track ****.
As far as the tranny. The 4 spd auto if well maintained is robust, if not bulletproof. I think its what was used in the 500/600 SL cars, which means the tq rating might be in the hi 390nm's . Just don't get a 97 w/ the 5 spd autotragic.
Here's a pic of the multilink rear setup on the Audi S4 that Addict makes. Can you say " Never Lift "
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MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,475
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From: City with Tall buildings!
C43/55,2k11 Volvo S60 T6AWD,2k Audi B5 S4,95 Eagle Talon Tsi AWD 500+awhp
IF you're talking about an E36 M3 I think you'll like the C36 better.
My friend had a 95 pre Obd2 M3 w/ Turner goodies and I spent lots of time behind the wheel.
As far as handling, the M3 has the edge ( if your rear towers are healthy).....its lighter, has excellent track behavior...blah bla blah.
My reasoning for not getting a 95 M3 myself was the maintenance and durability vs. cost to run factor. They ain't cheap to keep.
My friend had a 95 pre Obd2 M3 w/ Turner goodies and I spent lots of time behind the wheel.
As far as handling, the M3 has the edge ( if your rear towers are healthy
).....its lighter, has excellent track behavior...blah bla blah. My reasoning for not getting a 95 M3 myself was the maintenance and durability vs. cost to run factor. They ain't cheap to keep.
With my OBD1 converted 325 to M3 I had no maintenance or durabilty issues and I had just about all the bolt on parts you could add on to it(TMS chip incld). My BMW's sure did not break my pockets.
Bottom line my M332i(325i) would spank a C36 all around.
I will say that the C36 is a better built car quality wise though.
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: City with Tall buildings!
C43/55,2k11 Volvo S60 T6AWD,2k Audi B5 S4,95 Eagle Talon Tsi AWD 500+awhp
My friend just chucked the 4speed auto out of his turbocharged C36 and threw in the 5 speed trany from the M113 cars with a bell housing from a 97 W210 E320 which helped it bolt right on. I'll be politically correct and say that these trannies are not bullet proof unless you give them constant fluid chgs.
By the way the 5 speed tranny in the C43 is rumored to be the same tranny in the SL 600.
Banned
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1996 C36 AMG
I too am one of the rare human beings to have owned both.
The C36 AMG is an amazing car, the E36 M3 is an amazing car.
On the Track, E36 is king plain and simple. stock vs. stock or modded vs. modded.
I will however admit, the C36 AMG blew my mind away, I would say in stock form it handles just as well as the E36 M3 if not slightly better, but the M3 edges out in handling "feel" simply b/c of rack & pinion vs. Recipricating ball, you just can't compare the two, rack and pinion is beter. but as far as capability the C36 is right there if not slighty better.
The E36 is lighter though and thats a big plus. However the C36 AMG has one hell of an inline 6 engine. And with crank pulley alone you can make C43 power.
The E36 M3 is more modable by far and is a better track car platform for sure. For the street I would chose C36, for track E36 M3. both great if you use them for their intended purpose.
I will say that there is something about this C36 that I can't just put my finger on, it has SO much character, more than any other car I've driven and it really does feel like you are driving a part of automotive history, and it has a uniqueness & rarity & sense of nostalgia that I never ever got from my E36 M3. The C36 is a true collectible, the E36 is anything but.
either way, both are great cars, not knocking either. The best way I can describe the two in an analogy is as follows:
The E36 M3 is a surgeon's scalpal, the C36 AMG is Thor's sledgehammer
nuff said
The C36 AMG is an amazing car, the E36 M3 is an amazing car.
On the Track, E36 is king plain and simple. stock vs. stock or modded vs. modded.
I will however admit, the C36 AMG blew my mind away, I would say in stock form it handles just as well as the E36 M3 if not slightly better, but the M3 edges out in handling "feel" simply b/c of rack & pinion vs. Recipricating ball, you just can't compare the two, rack and pinion is beter. but as far as capability the C36 is right there if not slighty better.
The E36 is lighter though and thats a big plus. However the C36 AMG has one hell of an inline 6 engine. And with crank pulley alone you can make C43 power.
The E36 M3 is more modable by far and is a better track car platform for sure. For the street I would chose C36, for track E36 M3. both great if you use them for their intended purpose.
I will say that there is something about this C36 that I can't just put my finger on, it has SO much character, more than any other car I've driven and it really does feel like you are driving a part of automotive history, and it has a uniqueness & rarity & sense of nostalgia that I never ever got from my E36 M3. The C36 is a true collectible, the E36 is anything but.
either way, both are great cars, not knocking either. The best way I can describe the two in an analogy is as follows:
The E36 M3 is a surgeon's scalpal, the C36 AMG is Thor's sledgehammer
nuff said
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From: North Carolina
98 Black C43 , 12’ ML 350 Blutec
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 25
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From: Northern VA
C36, M3, Jetta GLi, 525i
Really not that rare. I have both too. Both cars are old enough that they are at the price point that "average" people can afford them. You can get good to exellent examples of both cars for far less than the average price of one new, domestic car. You could probably get 3 for the price of the cheapest Merc or BMW on the market currently.
I haven't had enough seat time in the Merc to compare to my E36 M3 yet. Only had the Merc a month. But so far, it suits me much, MUCH better than my C5 S6.
Cheers,
FLi
I haven't had enough seat time in the Merc to compare to my E36 M3 yet. Only had the Merc a month. But so far, it suits me much, MUCH better than my C5 S6.
Cheers,
FLi
Super Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 592
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From: Sacramento
AMG C43, 1999
You can get the W202 C-class cars to handle pretty damn good if you spend the time to dial in suspension, alignment specs, brake pads, etc.
I can fit a 275/40/17 inch tire on a 17x9.5" rim in the rear. It only took some carefull fender pulling with a baseball bat style alteration and in the front I run 255/40/17 on a 17x8.5" rim. Again I pulled the fenders out with a round wood stick of 2"diameter working it between the tire and fender.
I guess if enough of you, say 5 to 6 of you want a bigger rear bar, I can make several sets of rear swaybars that would use a splined straight swaybar that attaches to a splined swaybar arm and then to a heim joint adjustable swaybar arm.
I run a 7/8" daimeter bar which really limits oversteer and front end push.
Jeff
I can fit a 275/40/17 inch tire on a 17x9.5" rim in the rear. It only took some carefull fender pulling with a baseball bat style alteration and in the front I run 255/40/17 on a 17x8.5" rim. Again I pulled the fenders out with a round wood stick of 2"diameter working it between the tire and fender.
I guess if enough of you, say 5 to 6 of you want a bigger rear bar, I can make several sets of rear swaybars that would use a splined straight swaybar that attaches to a splined swaybar arm and then to a heim joint adjustable swaybar arm.
I run a 7/8" daimeter bar which really limits oversteer and front end push.
Jeff
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 316
Likes: 6
From: New York
Stg3 B5S4-C55 AMG
You can get the W202 C-class cars to handle pretty damn good if you spend the time to dial in suspension, alignment specs, brake pads, etc.
I can fit a 275/40/17 inch tire on a 17x9.5" rim in the rear. It only took some carefull fender pulling with a baseball bat style alteration and in the front I run 255/40/17 on a 17x8.5" rim. Again I pulled the fenders out with a round wood stick of 2"diameter working it between the tire and fender.
I guess if enough of you, say 5 to 6 of you want a bigger rear bar, I can make several sets of rear swaybars that would use a splined straight swaybar that attaches to a splined swaybar arm and then to a heim joint adjustable swaybar arm.
I run a 7/8" daimeter bar which really limits oversteer and front end push.
Jeff
I can fit a 275/40/17 inch tire on a 17x9.5" rim in the rear. It only took some carefull fender pulling with a baseball bat style alteration and in the front I run 255/40/17 on a 17x8.5" rim. Again I pulled the fenders out with a round wood stick of 2"diameter working it between the tire and fender.
I guess if enough of you, say 5 to 6 of you want a bigger rear bar, I can make several sets of rear swaybars that would use a splined straight swaybar that attaches to a splined swaybar arm and then to a heim joint adjustable swaybar arm.
I run a 7/8" daimeter bar which really limits oversteer and front end push.
Jeff
I was hoping you would chime in.
I remember reading about your Canyon Carver a while ago. Can you PM me a ballpark on the rear set-up.
Thanks.
Mike
Banned
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 426
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1996 C36 AMG
The eibachs are actually a progressive rate spring (hence the softer ride), the H&Rs on the other hand are a linear rate spring, thats why the initial bite on the H&Rs is has a big more feedback, but also as a result for daily driver its a bit firmer (borderline too firm for some).
I say stick with the Eibachs and also get a set of bilstein sports, thats a great combo. In addition while you are in there doing suspension it might be a good time to do the poly control arm bushings and steering damper while you are at it.
I say stick with the Eibachs and also get a set of bilstein sports, thats a great combo. In addition while you are in there doing suspension it might be a good time to do the poly control arm bushings and steering damper while you are at it.
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Apr 2008
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2007 R320 CDI, 2010 FJ Cruiser, CTS-V
Thanks
Bilstein Sport + Eibach is what the car came with. The ride feels fine (if not too soft).
Bilstein Sport + Eibach is what the car came with. The ride feels fine (if not too soft).
The eibachs are actually a progressive rate spring (hence the softer ride), the H&Rs on the other hand are a linear rate spring, thats why the initial bite on the H&Rs is has a big more feedback, but also as a result for daily driver its a bit firmer (borderline too firm for some).
I say stick with the Eibachs and also get a set of bilstein sports, thats a great combo. In addition while you are in there doing suspension it might be a good time to do the poly control arm bushings and steering damper while you are at it.
I say stick with the Eibachs and also get a set of bilstein sports, thats a great combo. In addition while you are in there doing suspension it might be a good time to do the poly control arm bushings and steering damper while you are at it.
Banned
Joined: Jan 2008
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1996 C36 AMG
All the documentation I have seen has shows that the H&Rs are linear both sport and race, (same is true in the bmw community) and eibachs/intrax/vogtland are all progressive rate. Thats why for true performance driving the H&Rs are better, but for every day use the eibachs are better. I will note, on some cars the bilstein sports & eibach springs aren't the best combo due just not meshing well together, but on others its a good combo. If you have documentation proving otherwise please provide it.
On the E36 M3s for example, the combo 90% run who use bilstein sports is H&R springs b/c the eibachs would give the car odd quirks at times (sometimes feeling floaty at the limit & etc) so people opted for bilsteins. If they ran eibachs they'd usually run koni. But thats really only an issue on that specific model, on others people seem to run them fine.
On the E36 M3s for example, the combo 90% run who use bilstein sports is H&R springs b/c the eibachs would give the car odd quirks at times (sometimes feeling floaty at the limit & etc) so people opted for bilsteins. If they ran eibachs they'd usually run koni. But thats really only an issue on that specific model, on others people seem to run them fine.
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2007 R320 CDI, 2010 FJ Cruiser, CTS-V
I don't like the Eibachs after having the car for two weeks now.
The ride is compliant, but I think they are too soft for the amount of lowering that they do. There is still plenty of body roll IMHO.
Most likely I will be switching to the H&R sports in the not too distant future especially if I can find a set cheap.
The ride is compliant, but I think they are too soft for the amount of lowering that they do. There is still plenty of body roll IMHO.
Most likely I will be switching to the H&R sports in the not too distant future especially if I can find a set cheap.
All the documentation I have seen has shows that the H&Rs are linear both sport and race, (same is true in the bmw community) and eibachs/intrax/vogtland are all progressive rate. Thats why for true performance driving the H&Rs are better, but for every day use the eibachs are better. I will note, on some cars the bilstein sports & eibach springs aren't the best combo due just not meshing well together, but on others its a good combo. If you have documentation proving otherwise please provide it.
On the E36 M3s for example, the combo 90% run who use bilstein sports is H&R springs b/c the eibachs would give the car odd quirks at times (sometimes feeling floaty at the limit & etc) so people opted for bilsteins. If they ran eibachs they'd usually run koni. But thats really only an issue on that specific model, on others people seem to run them fine.
On the E36 M3s for example, the combo 90% run who use bilstein sports is H&R springs b/c the eibachs would give the car odd quirks at times (sometimes feeling floaty at the limit & etc) so people opted for bilsteins. If they ran eibachs they'd usually run koni. But thats really only an issue on that specific model, on others people seem to run them fine.
