2PHAST

There is no "plug in" options from Unichip for any Mercedes, so you take one of their generic piggy back ecu's and you need to wire it into the ECU. Fortunately for me, Unichip had a schematic for a E240, which just happens to use the same ECU and wire hareness, so it was just a matter of doing the splices. It works as advertised and provides quite a bit of flexibility when it comes to tuning.

Once the project is completed, I will post dyno numbers and a complete write up on my site (like always) but I am only partially there, need to resolve the fuel delivery problem first. Cory at Kleemann believes its the stock fuel pump, not the injectors, so thats going to be my starting point.

FLYNAVY

Yeah, Dr C36 has a good point about your cost figure. I paid $4500 for headers and exhuast on my V8 190e (most of that cost being the headers themselves). Of course this was a difficult undertaking, but so would be the C43. Headers alone, if done right w/ enough R&D to make them actually add power, will be well more than 2k. Even in bulk numbers as your cost per unit will not change that much, even w/ a good jig (which generally needs to be tweaked itself, a process that normally leads to throw-aways). I applaud you for taking on this project, but I just don't want anyone to have false hopes.....this will be $$$. I do hope that most people whom you would be marketing to will be willing to pay a bit more though. If I could pull a reliable 400 hp from my C43, I would pay 5-8k for it. Otherwise the 5.4L swap is the only logical alternative

silence

i didn't realize you were talking about a 1993- i understand now



how much power are you making, roughly? what injectors are you running? what fuel pressure is your goal? are you hitting your fuel pressure goal (or are you running stock fuel pressure and hoping to completely compensate with injector pulse wideth?)?

C43AMG

It's not that we are "non-believers".The fact is alot of people have played around with these motors trying to extract more horsepower and the results have been minimal with respectable monetary investments.I would have thought that your company would have at least done the research and applied your findings to this particular motor prior to your post.If you feel you can achieve your posted goals within the financial parameters you've listed,I commend you and your company.As FLYNAVY posted,the best "bang for the buck" for our cars is the 5.5 swap.I am sure Carl will be posting here on this topic soon.

2PHAST

Actually, I am talking about my 2000 CLK, which is supercharged. Since the AF is rich and then around 4800 rpm, it starts to run off the chart as the injectors reach 100% duty cycle, I don't have any accurate rwhp numbers yet. My only dyno runs have been for tuning and have been made in 3rd gear, which is not 1:1.

Roughly, power with the 70mm pulley and tuning, at the crank should be between 330 and 360. The injectors are stock. I don't know about "goals for fuel pressure, I guess to eliminate the 100% duty cycle that starts around 4800 rpm, need to keep AF under 12.5 and duty cycle under 50%. The fuel pump is stock and it is believed that this is the source of the problem. So I will start with the larger flowing pump and maybe have a set of C32 40lb injectors standing by, in the event the fuel pump does not correct the existing problem.

silence

so are you running stock fuel pressure regulation then?

SeeKlasse

i was about to say why dont you just start swapping fuel delivery components with the c32, which is virtually the same thing you did with your clk320. sc'ed the 3.2 v6.


i think 50 hp is doable for sure. at least at the crank. crank pulley, headers, software, and maybe a highflow intake would probably put our motors at 350 crank hp. software claims are 20hp alone so hey why not.

2PHAST

Kleemann provides rising rate FMU with their kit, but its not sufficient to deal with the lack of fuel.

I am going to use a CLK55 W208 fuel pump and some Bosch 28lb injectors that I mananage to source for nothing. Thats a 11lb increase over the stock injectors.

2PHAST

That is doable for the injectors only, the C32 is a different chassis design, so the fuel pump won't work on a W208 chassis. If I don't get anywhere with the upgraded 28lb injectors, I will source the 40lb C32 injectors.

silence

the "984" bosch pump should provide plenty of flow and save you $50 of so vs the "044"

i'm still not absolutely sure what injectors are stock in my car- so can't even try to guess/help with that

NitrogenBalance

The green injector mistery continues...eventually one of us will remove them and send them out for a cleaning/flow job. Unless someone can dig up the info.

ProjectC55

Please tell us how so? I'm still waiting to here this after asking you b4.

Do you have any dyno's showing the mods you did to confirm a 50hp increase? Are you related to Dr.C36?
By the way ,the injectors in the C43 are already quite big,they are also the same Green Bosch injectors(42lbs(450cc)) found in the 99 to 2k or 2k1 E55's. The one's in the CLK430,E500,E430 are either pink(22lbs) or white(36lb(380cc),I can't remember. More than likely the reg 4.3L M113 V8 uses the white 36lb 380cc inj.

Now without raising the compression or doing a combo of headwork,piston,crank,SW,how do you get 400hp out of this motor(4.3L) N/A for a reasonable price?

TVT_DESIGN

Yes we have dynos showing a base of 176 HP and an after showing 208 HP, all to the wheels. Both done on Mustang dynos.

As for the 400 N/A HP out of the 4.3L we'll just have to see. I'm not saying for sure it can be done, but then not many people thought we could get 250+ HP out of the 3.2L N/A.

I started tuning because I like the challenge of doing things that haven't been done. This didn't turn into a job until recently when I saw how little affordable aftermarket is out there for the MB crowd.

Engines are all basically the same, so some simple principles that have worked for years in engine building work on these engines as well. Just be better venting the crank case and reducing the oil into the Intake Manifold we picked up 7 HP. If you do a few little things like that, it all adds up.

I know 1+1 doesn't = 2 when it comes to upgrades. But if you find the weaknesses in the engine and improve them, you have some huge gains at times.

For the 3.2L the biggest weakness was the injectors. Stock 15 lbs/hr, and they were at 80% duty cycle stock. With a basic ECU flash and a better flowing intake we saw the engines running dangerously lean over 3400 RPM. We started playing around with different injectors and flow designs and found a perfect complement to the engine. With the new injectors and a proper tune gas mileage actually increased by 1-2 mph.

My original question was to gauge interest. I've asked the same one to other car groups and some times I get a huge resounding NO! R&D isn't cheap, so I kind of wanted to make sure it would be worth it. I do not believe in overpriced products, it takes away from the fun of tuning.

Ok, I'm done.

Sorry for the long post.

TVT_DESIGN

They stuck 42 lbs/hr injectors on a 4.3L N/A motor with a sub 7K redline? Why?

ProjectC55

Ask AMG.

I could only guess based on what AMG has stated in that the C43 has hotter hollow cams, different valve springs, freer flowing airbox which is still up for debate as far as I'm concerned,exh and perhaps more ignition timing.

Don't really see where reving the motor up to 7k would have as much to do with what size injectors are being used
vs the amt of airflow,fuel,compression and ignition timing at a given rpm.
If you r a tuner should'nt you know that?

silence

they are the green bosch injectors- it seems that the stock programming must have them at like 20% duty cycle max though... either that or they aren't the green injectors we think they are. It drives me nuts having to push as much fuel pressure through such huge injectors (set up with such short pulse width) as i do.

I am hoping to send mine in for cleaning and a bit of improvement over the winter- sounds like wes may not be selling me that intake now though....

-drew

TVT_DESIGN

My point was there isn't enough airflow to require that large of injectors. If it was a higher revving engine, it was still be over kill unless the cams were designed for optimum operation in the upper RPM, which they are not. More fuel is needed at higher RPM as there is more air per unit time moved through an engine. Come on now that's pretty simple.

What is the BOSCH part number on the stock injectors?

splinter

Nah, that’s simply not the case.

With all due respect, as you become even more familiar with the Mercedes-Benz and AMG performance enhancement aftermarket, you’ll verify that incremental gains for normally aspirated engines are neither easily nor inexpensively obtained.

FLYNAVY

That's a little bit closer to the knowledgeable response that I was hoping to see. Like I said, I don't doubt that you can do it, but I am skeptical about the out the door price when all is said done. I think if you stick to your guns (in terms of price point) and actually do make it work, you will have a big market here. So what kind of stuff do you have in mind aside from just experimenting w/ injectors, tune and resultant duty cycle tweaking? Bottom end work....crank scraper, windage tray, etc? You have my interest

bagelsjustbagel

YES.

ProjectC55

So are you arguing against the fact that AMG is using the injectors in this motor?

What makes you think that these motors don't produce enuff airflow to justify using these injectors? You still are'nt taking into acct how many CC's the motor has nor the compression ratio,nor the fact that the head design may be different,nor ECU programming(ign timing and fuel).

The way this motor is designed it does not have to be a high reving motor to make power like the straight 6 in a BMW E46 M3. Alot of fuel is delivered in the engines sweet spot and enuff to keep it from blowing up once it reaches the rev limiter. The motor is actually capable of reving up to 7k as well if it was not for the rev limiter.
The amt of fuel or size of injector is not solely permeated on how high a motor is capable of reving is my point. There are other factors that you are simply not mentioning that stir questions in my mind as to why you think a motor would need bigger injectors or not.

Are the engineers at AMG retards for using the same size green injectors in the AMG 4.3L motor and the AMG 5.4L motors? Not to mention the same exact ECU but slightly different files in both the C43 and the E55

Just for your information as well Ford uses these same injectors in their 5.0L 302 motor and they are safely used in the S/C lightning 5.0L 302 Ford motor.

Dr. C36

we are in absolutely no way related . I would never make such bold ridiculous claims, his claims were literally double mine... not gonna happen. Neither C36 nor C43 has the stock cams to make that kind of power NA, they are more designed for mid range torque than absolute top end HP. I know exactly what these cars are capable of NA with bolt ons b/c I actually designed parts for them, everyone else is just guessing.

325HP is realistic for C36
350HP is realistic for C43

Most of the mods to get to that point are already on the market or about to be on the market within the next month or so.

anything more then that will take major engine overhaul and internal upgrades or serious sacrifice of comforts (AC & power steering delete, engine fan delete, etc etc).


If you want to make parts TVT, come out with a carbon fiber driveshaft, thats something the W202 community could really use, as well as other CF performance parts. Other then that everything is done already pretty much.

Dr. C36

Injectors are a waste of time. The stock injectors are more than capable enough for an increase of 50HP easy, they have plenty of extra capacity, All you need is a good software tune b/c the 5.5L has a very mild tune, and same is probably true for 4.3L/3.6L as well. (Although I will say AMG did a fantastic job with the C36 tune b/c A/Fs were rock solid @ 13.1 all the way across the board, never seen a stock engine with an ECU as dialed in as the C36s). Furthermore, doing injectors when gas prices are sky rocketing is just plain foolish, especially when they are not necessary at all. Just slapping on injectors haphazardly expecting gains is hardly considered proper "tuning"

You can get a great software tune from Oliver @ SpeedtuningUSA. His tunes are great and you can even go with custom more aggressive tune with higher redline. He will do whatever you want. One of the MB world members got his M113 5.5L CLK55 up to 6400rpm redline just as an example. C36 guys can change theirs to 7000rpm up from 6400/6800 with a stage 2 setup (higher redline, tuned for intake/exhaust and minor bolt ons). hope that helps.

2PHAST

The C43 and the 99-00 E55 use the same Bosch injectors, 0280155839, which have a flow rate of 259cc/min @ 3bar with a resistance of 14.5 @ 3ohm.

From what I see, almost all of the AMG vehicles use 40+ lb injectors and when you caluclate the requirements for the amount of hp the motor is putting out, it is indeed overkill.

silence

the fords with the same injectors in them are the newer modular motors (not 5.0 litres- unless the very very rare 5.0 "cammer" sohc motors that i know Ford made a couple of for show purposes etc.) I believe the 5.4 sc's in the lightnings and sc'd harley trucks use these injectors. some of the 4.6 dohc motors from the "terminator" cobras may use them as well.

i know i posted "uncertainly" about what the injectors are in my car (and honestly i'm still a bit uncertain) so all of the above is dependent on them being what many of us have always assumed after looking at them etc.- perhaps now that earlier in this thread someone actually posted the part number we can be absolutely certain (i have personally never confirmed anything beyond the fact that they can be directly swapped for the Ford ones as they have the same layout and fittings etc.)

my 1996 5.0 litre with upgrades intake, maf, tb, upper intake, headers, exhaust and chip tune is still running what were the stock 19 lb injectors

-drew