TVT_DESIGN

We've done a lot of work with the M112 3.2L and have several customers getting close to 300 HP on the stock displacement. We are looking to branch out to another market and would like to stay N/A if possible.

With the C43 most of our parts will swap right over so the R&D is 90% finished, but the C36 is a whole new ball game.

We should finally be opening up a shop to do some testing in after cleaning the property all summer and if the interest is there, we would like to get our hands on one of these cars and see what we can do.

I think a N/A 400 HP C43 for a decent price would sound pretty good.

Let me know what you think and we'll go from there.

Anthony

C43AMG

How do plan on achieving this without a S/C or Turbo ?

2PHAST

How do most of the parts for a V8 swap over to the M112 V6?

As for V6 hp at 300, I assume your referring to crank hp.

Why don't you modify your M112 headers to fit the W208 chassis, you would be the only company in the market place offering these and I would be be very interested.

DarthCY

I'd be all for some C43 parts. There are definitely a lack of parts for this car. I mean one of the cheapest packages is a CF airbox and Chip for 3K!!!!

An up graded intake that really works, some headers, and maybe some exhaust tweaks. Not sure how that is going to get 400 crank hp, but i'd be game to try. Heck i'd be happy with 350-360 hp crank na. The car is already fast, it just needs a litte extra oomph to make it over the top of being competative again with the newer crop of V8 euro cars.

Dr. C36

someone is smoking marajuana, even I would never make that claim of 400HP NA, thats 98 HP more than C43 has stock. Short of building a race motor... its not happening. hell making 50HP on C36 is a huge undertaking and even for me it will require to make bunch of different parts, and C36 engine has alot more tunability NA.

Turbo/SC only viable option for anything 350HP+ on any W202 period. stick to Chrysler crossfires.

FLYNAVY

I agree, although I'd love to see it happen! If you can do this for less than the price of swapping in a 5.4L (and all the reliability that goes w/ using an unmodded factory motor), then I will be the first in line

SeeKlasse

i dont know what you guys are talking about. 400hp from a 4.3 NA motor is def doable without racing mods. companies are consistently hitting the 100hp per liter mark why cant we push this motor to below that mark... helloo e46 m3 3.2 liter making 333hp thats pretty serious business right there.

bagelsjustbagel

id buy a chip

FLYNAVY

Thats great, but the s54 was designed at that power output from the factory. If you have any experience at all w/ engine builds you will know just how much of a proposition $$$-wise these kinds of gains are in N/A form. To give you an idea, for me to have built my m117 just to euro spec (raised compression, different pistons accordingly, very little else) would have cost me about 8-10k USD. That would have given me 50 extra HP. I opted for a standard rebuild (which encompasses the very minimum amount of things you would need to do before even beginning your build) and dropped 6.5k w/o even doing anything crazy. Most figures I have seen for 6.0 m119 builds are well above 10k, nearing 20k in most cases depending on the specifics of the build itself. There is a reason that Renntech wants 20+ grand for an m113 build. It is not to say that it can't be done.....you could definitely pull 400 hp NA from an m113, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But at what cost, when so many other things are more cost effective? I would buy a C55 before I did that, or who knows....a Renntech CLK60 w/ a 6-spd manual trans just sold for 25k

There are some things that could be done to a NA m113 (head work, headers, cams, bottom end stuff), but you won't end up w/ 100 extra ponies. Take a look at what some of the guys on the w211 E55 forum have been doing....of course everything there involves a supercharger, but many of the mechanical mods they are doing are relevant to all motors. Then take a look at how much $$$ they are shelling out. It's crazy, maybe not for an E55, but for a 10 yr old w202 it is.

SeeKlasse

yeah... that all sounds about right... oh btw... this certified pre-owned mercedes salesman here in atl has a kleemann s/c for my car that he took off an e430 about a year ago. he wants to sell it to me for 1500 bucks, the charger is in pretty good condition, would that be a good deal? how easy is it to install is it just bolt on or what?

NitrogenBalance

If this is for real go buy it today. If you near atlanta there is a good cert.Kleemann dealer that could do it no prob.

FLYNAVY

That's a good deal if it includes all the hardware. Expect to pay $$$ to have it tuned properly though

2PHAST

Actually, there really is no tuning for the supercharger, assuming all of the parts are included with the kit, its more or less, bolt on and go.

The V8 kits include a dc to dc inverter to up the voltage on the fuel pump to increase fuel flow. Since the pump is gear driven, upping the voltage increases the fuel volume.

Make you you get all of that hardware as well, as the inverter kit alone runs $800 and you won't have enough fuel pressure without it.

ECU remapping is not required, but you should consider spending the money and having it done.

silence

let us know exactly what it comes with and i'm sure we can help you get it working and tuned etc.

silence

or you can upgrade the fuel pump to one that doesn't need the voltage step-up (for less than $200 new)

or run an adjustable "amplifier" on your fuel pump and step-up the voltage exactly the amount you want (for about $350 new) and set it dependent on another variable.

i have spent a lot of effort and time looking into tuning options- talking on the phone with people who have the capabilities etc. and i'm just not convinced that any of them really know what they are doing. I was so excited when i first found a list of numbers (nationally) for tuning places with the capabilities, but as i spoke with more and more of them i realized i trusted myself to street tune my car with fuel pressure and maf scaling more than i trusted any of those people to get a tune right (even with multiple trips back and forth to the dyno mailing them the ecu back and forth etc. etc.)

that said- i definitely want to get a proper ecu tune for my car if possible, lol.

currently i'm 10.5-10.9 in 1st and 2nd and 12.6-12.9 afr in 3rd and 4th at wot and without going into the ecu will never be able to lean out first and 2nd. ecu tuning would also put me in a better situation for my nitrous plans.

FLYNAVY

Interesting, did not know that. I would still want to have the ECU tuned for my own peace of mind. Also, I would definitely want to get an uprated fuel pump, seems like it would be cheap insurance against burning out the factory one by overworking it (although I guess if it were rated for the output needed, and MB just used a large factor of safety in its design, that this would maybe not be an issue). Either way, sounds like a good deal. Kleemann charges the big bucks for blower conversions....I think I remember a quote of around 15k for install on a C43 if their techs did it.

2PHAST

Yes, upgradeing the fuel pump is a less expensive solution. I don't know what pump would be compatible though, as the W203 and W209 chassis's use a different pump, as for factory MB options for W202/W208, the CLK55 is the largest flowing pump that I know of and is also shared with many other vehicles like the CL55, C36/C43 etc. Flow rate is 60-70 gph max. Bosch has a universal pump, model 0580254044 which flows 80 gph and it needs 6an and 8am fule pump fittings. Not sure if this would be a easy upgrade or not.

As for the ECU, I solved the tuning problem by integrating a Unichip piggy back ecu, so now I can control timing and fuel, but I am hitting 100% duty on the injectors, which I suspect is a fuel delivery problem. So I will be installing a CLK55 fuel pump on my car, which flows more than the stock clk320 pump.

silence

please tell me how you got that tuning solution to work/what to buy- i will like order it up now if it will work for my car. thank you very much in advance.

you won't even need that "044" pump as it is overkill for this unless you modify the car a lot more than just bolting this on. The "982" pump which flows quite a bit less supports my car running at around 95 psi of fuel pressure too.

2PHAST

Not sure whom your remarks were directed at, but I believe the discussion was concerning supercharged V8 motors and additional fuel requirements. The stock fuel pump is not sufficient for this application. Same with my vehcile, as it is supercharged and running a smaller SC pulley.

silence

to clarify-

the "044" bosch pump is larger than he will need to go with a 4.3 equipped with the Kleemann SC


when i said "this" in that post i was referring to the SC




so how did you get the piggyback to work?

TVT_DESIGN

Wow not too many believers on this site.

With just an intake, ECU tune, and larger injectors we consistently get 260 HP+ out of the 3.2L, which has a starting point of 215 HP. That's a 20% increase.

If the 4.3L is choked in the same ways as its v6 cousin then I don't see why a lot more power isn't possible. Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be.

Look at what LET and VRP are doing with SC motors. I'm sure no one thought things like that could happen. If it wasn't from the big German tuners it must be impossible.

We'll do a quick build up and see the reaction we get.

If we can get 350 HP to the crank for less then 2K would you be interested?

DarthCY

Yes, that does sound interesting. I know people are skeptical, but I'm all for some decent proven mods for this car under 10K.

However part of the skeptecism comes from the fact that the car is already tweaked for 27 extra hp from the factory over a stadard 4.3L engine.

FLYNAVY

Your gains are going to hit an upper ceiling real quick above the 15-20% mark. Not to mention that (as was already stated), the m113 in the C43 is already tuned. $2000 is humorous, but I would love to see it happen. I don't mean any offense by this, but are you one of those tuners who farms out work to independent engineering firms and then sells under your own name? Nothing wrong w/ that (probably more the norm than the exception), but this would explain some questions a lot of us likely have/will have about your claim.

silence

i can't say i'm that impressed with what is going on with the other companies and the kompressor motors either


build something that works and i'll buy it- but you will have to show real gains with independent testing (which i could also handle for you to some degree) as well as good power numbers for the $ before anyone will take your claims seriously.

Dr. C36

Addition of 50HP NA is about max with bolt ons and it will cost you more than $2000 I can assure you that b/c pulley & headers are roughly 2000 and that will only get you about 30-35HP and you are going to have to squeeze out and extra 15-20HP. Realistically $3k is more likely. Honestly its easier to get 50HP out of the C36 than it is out of the C43 NA simply due to the nature of the design of the engine.

Flynavy is correct, just b/c its easy to make one engine make alot of HP doesn't mean its easier to do it on another. S50/52/54 engines are very rare exception. there aren't many 3.0/3.2L cars that you can extract an extra 60HP NA (25% increase) from a starting base of 240 then you are foolishishly optimistic. Those family of engines are a rare exception. C43 is not in that family. C36 can make roughly 50HP but only b/c it has a .4-.6 displacement advantage on the MB M5xx family engines.

50HP for $3000 is realistic estimate and many of the mods are already out there (crank pulley, headers, software, etc etc). I would definitely NOT recommend injectors and more importantly they are not necessary, the stock injectors in both the 36 and 43 are more than enough to cope for incoming extra air & etc (high capacity injectors running @ high pressures). Most importantly in a climate of every increasing fuel prices the LAST mod you should be doing is fuel injectors they will destroy fuel efficiency and for very little gain.

not trying to rain anyones parade but just giving a dose of reality. 100HP will not happen NA on any realistic budget (less than $10k in work), might as well just drop in 5.5L NA as mentioned for alot less, or SC.

What needs to be done, has been done already, its just a matter of people spending the $$ to get it done, as simple as that.