benz tuners and modifiers
10-20-2008, 02:42 AM
#1
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sounds like airplane
benz tuners and modifiers
This is not meant to offend any particular individuals, it is solely a bit of commentary on my experience here and at other mercedes forums after, and concurrent with, a whole line of other vehicles/forums/communities. I've owned highly modified Fords, Chevrolets, Subarus and Audis in the past for whatever it's worth and am also a member of the infiniti and BMW forums and a couple of non-vehicle specific forums.
what i've noticed though is that there are two distinct types of tuners and two distinct types of modifiers in the Mercedes world.
The ones who have provoked me into making this thread are not widely found in the other communities which i'm a member. These are the tuners who make parts for Mercedes because no one else does. The ones who couldn't cut it in a competitive environment but can take advantage of uneducated people with few options. One good example of this who i don't mind ripping on at all would be HPS. We all know that their products and engineering wouldn't last long at all in any of those other worlds- there are just too many intelligent people.
There is a big base of "modifiers" who fall into this same category too. The people who buy into these products. Also generally the ones who have very long signatures listing the kinds of things that if everyone listed them we'd all go nuts.
Neither one of those two groups are common in the VAG, BMW, Subaru, Domestic or Infiniti communities.
Now what is even more interesting to me is that those people from above are also joined in these forums by some very very knowledgeable people and some incredibly high quality tuners. It's striking the level of knowledge, attention to detail and skill goes into a lot of very expensive Mercedes vehicles. It's also incredible the products some of the better tuners make.
I guess my main point is- it blows me mind that disparity between those two groups and it confuses me how the "poser" group sticks around so well around here- they just wouldn't last almost anywhere else i go.
what i've noticed though is that there are two distinct types of tuners and two distinct types of modifiers in the Mercedes world.
The ones who have provoked me into making this thread are not widely found in the other communities which i'm a member. These are the tuners who make parts for Mercedes because no one else does. The ones who couldn't cut it in a competitive environment but can take advantage of uneducated people with few options. One good example of this who i don't mind ripping on at all would be HPS. We all know that their products and engineering wouldn't last long at all in any of those other worlds- there are just too many intelligent people.
There is a big base of "modifiers" who fall into this same category too. The people who buy into these products. Also generally the ones who have very long signatures listing the kinds of things that if everyone listed them we'd all go nuts.
Neither one of those two groups are common in the VAG, BMW, Subaru, Domestic or Infiniti communities.
Now what is even more interesting to me is that those people from above are also joined in these forums by some very very knowledgeable people and some incredibly high quality tuners. It's striking the level of knowledge, attention to detail and skill goes into a lot of very expensive Mercedes vehicles. It's also incredible the products some of the better tuners make.
I guess my main point is- it blows me mind that disparity between those two groups and it confuses me how the "poser" group sticks around so well around here- they just wouldn't last almost anywhere else i go.
10-20-2008, 04:22 AM
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'09 C63 AMG
This is not meant to offend any particular individuals, it is solely a bit of commentary on my experience here and at other mercedes forums after, and concurrent with, a whole line of other vehicles/forums/communities. I've owned highly modified Fords, Chevrolets, Subarus and Audis in the past for whatever it's worth and am also a member of the infiniti and BMW forums and a couple of non-vehicle specific forums.
what i've noticed though is that there are two distinct types of tuners and two distinct types of modifiers in the Mercedes world.
The ones who have provoked me into making this thread are not widely found in the other communities which i'm a member. These are the tuners who make parts for Mercedes because no one else does. The ones who couldn't cut it in a competitive environment but can take advantage of uneducated people with few options. One good example of this who i don't mind ripping on at all would be HPS. We all know that their products and engineering wouldn't last long at all in any of those other worlds- there are just too many intelligent people.
There is a big base of "modifiers" who fall into this same category too. The people who buy into these products. Also generally the ones who have very long signatures listing the kinds of things that if everyone listed them we'd all go nuts.
Neither one of those two groups are common in the VAG, BMW, Subaru, Domestic or Infiniti communities.
Now what is even more interesting to me is that those people from above are also joined in these forums by some very very knowledgeable people and some incredibly high quality tuners. It's striking the level of knowledge, attention to detail and skill goes into a lot of very expensive Mercedes vehicles. It's also incredible the products some of the better tuners make.
I guess my main point is- it blows me mind that disparity between those two groups and it confuses me how the "poser" group sticks around so well around here- they just wouldn't last almost anywhere else i go.
what i've noticed though is that there are two distinct types of tuners and two distinct types of modifiers in the Mercedes world.
The ones who have provoked me into making this thread are not widely found in the other communities which i'm a member. These are the tuners who make parts for Mercedes because no one else does. The ones who couldn't cut it in a competitive environment but can take advantage of uneducated people with few options. One good example of this who i don't mind ripping on at all would be HPS. We all know that their products and engineering wouldn't last long at all in any of those other worlds- there are just too many intelligent people.
There is a big base of "modifiers" who fall into this same category too. The people who buy into these products. Also generally the ones who have very long signatures listing the kinds of things that if everyone listed them we'd all go nuts.
Neither one of those two groups are common in the VAG, BMW, Subaru, Domestic or Infiniti communities.
Now what is even more interesting to me is that those people from above are also joined in these forums by some very very knowledgeable people and some incredibly high quality tuners. It's striking the level of knowledge, attention to detail and skill goes into a lot of very expensive Mercedes vehicles. It's also incredible the products some of the better tuners make.
I guess my main point is- it blows me mind that disparity between those two groups and it confuses me how the "poser" group sticks around so well around here- they just wouldn't last almost anywhere else i go.
Truer words were never spoken.
10-20-2008, 05:26 PM
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ML430, Mini Cooper S and Porsche 911 Twin Turbo
couldn't agree more.....
I frequent 6speed for my 911 turbo interest and have always been puzzled why MB more than other makes attracts more than it's fair share of 'charlatan tuners / modifiers' when compared to other makes.
Certainly in the Porsche world they wouldn't last long.
I guess they must think the average MB owner has more money than sense and is easy prey as they're likely uneducated with respect to performance modification / tuning.
Of course it could just be the size of the market which attracts them, hoping to reel in an unsusecting customer or two now and then.....
Certainly in the Porsche world they wouldn't last long.
I guess they must think the average MB owner has more money than sense and is easy prey as they're likely uneducated with respect to performance modification / tuning.
Of course it could just be the size of the market which attracts them, hoping to reel in an unsusecting customer or two now and then.....
10-20-2008, 10:14 PM
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88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
I think it's a combination of things.
- Young owners who really aren't the "old school gearheads" and who are able to buy an excellently engineered car, especially the 124's and 202's on the cheap.
- lack of aftermarket performance parts.
Those with less then mechanical aptitude don't realize that they are in actuality buying a high performance car and think they can make it go faster with little or no investment.
They don't realize that a stock used C43 AMG is as fast as most of the legendary U.S. muscle cars of the sixties.
Unlike American iron the German cars are engineered with a critical balance that can't easily be improved on.
The major Merc tuners are priced out of reached of the masses, so the void is filled with those "tuners ??? " that offer dreams for a few hundred dollars....
Psychology takes over and the old seat of the pants dyno kicks in....
Amazing how much power you can get by installing a four inch sewer pipe "ricer" exhaust system ... and the sound is music to their ears....
- Young owners who really aren't the "old school gearheads" and who are able to buy an excellently engineered car, especially the 124's and 202's on the cheap.
- lack of aftermarket performance parts.
Those with less then mechanical aptitude don't realize that they are in actuality buying a high performance car and think they can make it go faster with little or no investment.
They don't realize that a stock used C43 AMG is as fast as most of the legendary U.S. muscle cars of the sixties.
Unlike American iron the German cars are engineered with a critical balance that can't easily be improved on.
The major Merc tuners are priced out of reached of the masses, so the void is filled with those "tuners ??? " that offer dreams for a few hundred dollars....
Psychology takes over and the old seat of the pants dyno kicks in....
Amazing how much power you can get by installing a four inch sewer pipe "ricer" exhaust system ... and the sound is music to their ears....
10-20-2008, 10:42 PM
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10-20-2008, 10:55 PM
#8
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sounds like airplane
is the s430 not already capable of speeds over 150 mph? not much can really keep up already and it's not like you can drive up there for long in our country (and keep your license)
10-20-2008, 11:30 PM
#9
ya S430 can hit the 155 limiter... slowly lol. Past 130 it starts to slow down but ya it will get there. I agree though, I do not see the fascination with top speed, its so pointless.
10-21-2008, 11:14 AM
#10
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Here's my 2 cents.
Sticking a chip in your Motronic box is not really tuning.,nor is adding a catback or CAI or pulley.
"True" tuning is when one can get into the ECU ,go into an open loop mode and adjust setting such as lambda,timing dwell,fuel delivery,fuel mapping,ignition timing,injector duty cycle and if you're motor is FI , (boost)Kpa levels.
This and the ability to log these adjustments so you can examine and re-calibrate.
This needs to be done on the dyno or while driving the car w/ a laptop plugged in to your ECU.
In my case I have a VEMS standalone MaFless ECU in my Audi.
This past weekend I was at EFI Express in New Hampshire getting my street tune all dialed in. This was a 10 hr process.
The Vems works off a wideband o2 thats right at my 3in downpipe on my S4.
There is NO guessing with this type of tuning. You come away with a very safe tune . In my case I'm running very high levels of boost ( 28-29 lbs ~ 276Kpa) @ 11.8 AFR.
When I had my Bosch Motronic w/ a chip and VMAP I was boosting at 25-26 lbs but at a very lean 12.4 at 5-6 rpms and no way to adjust the presets. Hence my need to go full standalone.
Once the tune is set, the VEMS is switched to close loop and you're done.
At this point my Bosch ECU is gone as well as the stock MAF.
This is tuning.
Also, before this weekend I got a baseline dyno of my old setup to have as a comparison for the before and after.
In the Benz world the 211 E55 cars are probably the only ones I can think of that are candidates for either standalone or piggybacks.
The rest of the AMG's or E500's etc are at the mercy of cottage industry posers out for a quick buck that probably cannot warranty when you throw a rod. They're not all posers,but the majority are.
If you decide to buy an off the shelf tune, just make sure there's supporting data of the yields and actual dyno plots that show AFR's as well as WHP+WTQ. Dyno #s can also be fudged in total un-corrected whp, but you can't fudge the AFR readings which is very important as most AMG motors already run hot and on the lean side when they are over 50K due to weakening fuel pumps, tired injectors, clogged FPR's or fuel rails....etc.
IMHO, the gains on NA Benz motors are in the 10-15 % range at best. The engineers at MBZ spend countless millions on R&D vs. credit card funded tuner shops who ya going to trust ?
10-15% gains are just about un-noticeable, at least for what its going to cost you financially and the cost of accelerated engine wear due to bad tuning .
Sticking a chip in your Motronic box is not really tuning.,nor is adding a catback or CAI or pulley.
"True" tuning is when one can get into the ECU ,go into an open loop mode and adjust setting such as lambda,timing dwell,fuel delivery,fuel mapping,ignition timing,injector duty cycle and if you're motor is FI , (boost)Kpa levels.
This and the ability to log these adjustments so you can examine and re-calibrate.
This needs to be done on the dyno or while driving the car w/ a laptop plugged in to your ECU.
In my case I have a VEMS standalone MaFless ECU in my Audi.
This past weekend I was at EFI Express in New Hampshire getting my street tune all dialed in. This was a 10 hr process.
The Vems works off a wideband o2 thats right at my 3in downpipe on my S4.
There is NO guessing with this type of tuning. You come away with a very safe tune . In my case I'm running very high levels of boost ( 28-29 lbs ~ 276Kpa) @ 11.8 AFR.
When I had my Bosch Motronic w/ a chip and VMAP I was boosting at 25-26 lbs but at a very lean 12.4 at 5-6 rpms and no way to adjust the presets. Hence my need to go full standalone.
Once the tune is set, the VEMS is switched to close loop and you're done.
At this point my Bosch ECU is gone as well as the stock MAF.
This is tuning.
Also, before this weekend I got a baseline dyno of my old setup to have as a comparison for the before and after.
In the Benz world the 211 E55 cars are probably the only ones I can think of that are candidates for either standalone or piggybacks.
The rest of the AMG's or E500's etc are at the mercy of cottage industry posers out for a quick buck that probably cannot warranty when you throw a rod. They're not all posers,but the majority are.
If you decide to buy an off the shelf tune, just make sure there's supporting data of the yields and actual dyno plots that show AFR's as well as WHP+WTQ. Dyno #s can also be fudged in total un-corrected whp, but you can't fudge the AFR readings which is very important as most AMG motors already run hot and on the lean side when they are over 50K due to weakening fuel pumps, tired injectors, clogged FPR's or fuel rails....etc.
IMHO, the gains on NA Benz motors are in the 10-15 % range at best. The engineers at MBZ spend countless millions on R&D vs. credit card funded tuner shops
who ya going to trust ?10-15% gains are just about un-noticeable, at least for what its going to cost you financially and the cost of accelerated engine wear due to bad tuning .
10-21-2008, 01:05 PM
#12
Senior Member
are you lean/rich ? an Autometer type AFR gauge is not the most accurate read. If you have a LC1 LM1 wideband o2...then you're good to go.
Are you certain that you're not detonating or constantly hitting your knock sensors. Thats something you can't really hear or feel w/o open loop real time logs.
I'm not arguing with you. Just giving one side of safe & smarter options.
10-21-2008, 01:48 PM
#13
guys... remember, this is an S430.... hardly a tuning platform haha. he just wants some mods to pick up more power and top speed (although I don't really see the need for the 2nd one unless he's in Germany)
10-21-2008, 03:18 PM
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sounds like airplane
yes, I have the necessary gauges and dyno time with more than just the things i can monitor all the time monitored. My XXX hp more than stock to me means my car is tuned- again, regardless of whether or not i have comprehensive ECU tuning (my ability to change the function of the ECU is quite limited)
when i said "tuning" and "tuners" in the original post i meant a comprehensive "those who make parts for the cars" not just those who tune the ECUs. Don't get me started on the companies that actually tune the ECUs- the tuner i(your definition now) 've been hearing the most about on here recently doesn't even own a dyno...
when i said "tuning" and "tuners" in the original post i meant a comprehensive "those who make parts for the cars" not just those who tune the ECUs. Don't get me started on the companies that actually tune the ECUs- the tuner i(your definition now) 've been hearing the most about on here recently doesn't even own a dyno...
